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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 78

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I just don’t agree that the she has to have some kind of lineage. I mean hell, Palpatine is a great example. Palpatine came from average parents, at least in Legends, not sure in canon, but he became the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Yeah, maybe bloodline can predispose people to have an already innate connection with the Force, but it doesn’t mean incredible talent can come from nowhere. And people bring up the fact that most great Jedi in Star Wars history did not have Jedi parents, but the whole point of Rey being a nobody is to show how anyone can be a hero even among legends. So to me it isn’t the same as just having a new hero in a new story with all new characters.

The Sequel Trilogy is basically if you combined the Legend of King Arthur with the story of Joan of Arc.

Joan (Rey) is chosen by God (the Force), given a special sword, and goes on a journey to save the land. Joan was just a farm girl, but she goes on to win battles even though she has no military training. Do we call Joan a Mary Sue? If God did not have a presence in the story, sure, but Joan has been chosen by God because of her piety and faith. It is her faith that gives her her power. Rey is a great comparison, in my opinion.

And instead of Joan trying to save France, it is like Joan trying to bring back King Arthur to save the land from his evil nephew, Mordred (interestingly, Joan of Arc’s greatest gift to the French army was really hope, a theme I believe is central to the purpose of Luke and the Jedi in the ST).

I also don’t believe the rules have the Force have changed either. Now, with the OT alone the Force is described pretty simply, but within the context of the PT I believe it fits.
Not sure in canon, but in Legends Plagueis and Palpatine did NOT create Anakin. Anakin/the Chosen One was created by the Force reacting to the growing power and machinations of the Sith. In the films themselves, Mace and Yoda discuss how their abilities in the Force are diminishing. I think the Sith choose to see the Force as just a system or a tool, but I think the Jedi see the Force as alive. To me, the Force, even in the OT, is meant to be a spiritual thing where faith and belief were fundamental to its identity. The Force is much more like God, or the Tao, rather than a system of magic from an RPG. That’s what George always meant for it to be.

Regarding Snoke

For awhile I thought Snoke was some kind of servant of Palpatine, but now I believe Snoke was merely a new Force-user who filled in the power vacuum, just a dark side rival similar to Mother Talzin. And if Sidious has been influencing Ben through Vader’s helmet or something, then it is possible Sidious just helped to position Ben to become Snoke’s apprentice in order to kill his both of his rivals (Snoke and Luke). A lot of the Wizard of Oz imagery, with the larger-than-life hologram and the red curtains of Snoke’s throne room (Man Behind the Curtain) seems to suggest this idea of Snoke being a red herring of sorts.

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RogueLeader said:

I just don’t agree that the she has to have some kind of lineage. I mean hell, Palpatine is a great example. Palpatine came from average parents, at least in Legends, not sure in canon, but he became the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Yeah, maybe bloodline can predispose people to have an already innate connection with the Force, but it doesn’t mean incredible talent can come from nowhere. And people bring up the fact that most great Jedi in Star Wars history did not have Jedi parents, but the whole point of Rey being a nobody is to show how anyone can be a hero even among legends. So to me it isn’t the same as just having a new hero in a new story with all new characters.

I believe you’re replying to my post before the below one which explains more thoroughly what I was getting at and in essence, I agree with you. The issue isn’t that she HAS to come from lineage because of how I understand how Star Wars works (which isn’t the case anyway), the issue is with just having her power level and abilities all come to fruition within a matter of days / weeks and having some lineage to lean on logically helps somewhat explain away the lack of reasons and justification so far.

Valheru_84 said:
No where did I say that due to Rey’s power level and command of the force that all force users should have to inherit it. Ive always understood from the get go in the OT that anyone can use the force and its a combination of your own force sensitivity and effort dedicated to learning to harness it that ultimately defines to what extent your power and control of the force will reach. Like everything though that is derived from your own organic being, force sensitivity is a biological trait that can be passed on and changed depending on who you make your kid/s with.

So there’s absolutely no reason why someone with no bilogical ties at all to any of the current powerful force users could not also reach or surpass those same levels. But in Rey’s case, without the necessary training over some dynamic but not insignificant time, there has to be some logical reason to how she got this immense power and control in the force and having parents who are renowned for being strong in the force goes a long way to explaining this with the timeframe we’ve actually been given. It doesn’t go all the way though which is why I suggested that her powers also be dangerously unwieldy and at times random since without training she shouldn’t have a clue as to what she’s doing which actually gives her a reason to find Luke or join Snoke or Kylo. It would also have actually given some more interest and dynamics to her character, maybe even helped give her a proper arc.

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RogueLeader said:
The Sequel Trilogy is basically if you combined the Legend of King Arthur with the story of Joan of Arc.

Joan (Rey) is chosen by God (the Force), given a special sword, and goes on a journey to save the land. Joan was just a farm girl, but she goes on to win battles even though she has no military training. Do we call Joan a Mary Sue? If God did not have a presence in the story, sure, but Joan has been chosen by God because of her piety and faith. It is her faith that gives her her power. Rey is a great comparison, in my opinion.

And this is where you start to lose me. The force is not a god, it doesn’t have a consciousness or the ability to divinely intervene in the events of the galaxy. It is simply a force that is generated and exists between all living things and binds the galaxy together. Your example works as an analogy but falls apart as soon as you try to actually apply it to Star Wars as we know (or knew) it.

RogueLeader said:
To me, the Force, even in the OT, is meant to be a spiritual thing where faith and belief were fundamental to its identity. The Force is much more like God, or the Tao, rather than a system of magic from an RPG. That’s what George always meant for it to be.

Fair enough and I know George has made reference to it in the past of it being like a religion but only in it’s most basic form, so much as with what you just said - it’s on a spiritual and faith like level but that’s where it ends. It’s actual reality is bound to the physics of cosmic energy and living beings that have discovered and learn to tap it revere it in an almost religion like fashion simply because they do not yet actually understand it, not to a scientific extent anyway. They understand on a basic level of how they use it and what observable effects it has on the observable world but they fill many gaps they still have with assumptions and idealised concepts of what it all means.

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I’m not saying it is a God, you can still interpret the Force as just a non-sentient system of nature that seeks to maintain balance. Force-users are conduits of the Force, and Force-users who allow the Force to act through them will naturally have the Force on their side.

I feel like you can only see the Force in two ways: either it is a conscious, dynamic entity that guides people or a unconscious, static power source that Force-users draw their abilities from. But it isn’t that black and white. The Force isn’t that simple. It can be an energy field, but also have a will of its own, but it doesn’t necessarily make it conscious or unconscious. Am I making any sense?

I think it is a bit of a mistake to think we understand the rules of the Force or what it exactly is. I think being set in one’s interpretation of the Force is exactly how the Jedi of the prequels lost their way.

My interpretation of the Force is a lot like how the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching describes the Tao.

The Way that can be walked is not the eternal Way.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of all things.

Therefore:
Free from desire you see the mystery.
Full of desire you see the manifestations.
These two have the same origin but differ in name.
That is the secret,
The secret of secrets,
The gate to all mysteries.

EDIT:
Just to add on to what I’m trying to say, check out this interview George Lucas did back in 1999. They really get into why George wanted to create the Force in Star Wars and what he wanted the audience, especially young people, to get from it.

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,23298-2,00.html

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Valheru_84 said:

The arguments of “what the ST needs” dont wash with me as its at the expense of the OT and those that understand its universe rules as a result of having watched it for the past 40+ years.

That’s it for me as well. Truth be told, the real reason Star Wars, Rogue One, and Solo are the only films I like in the franchise is because they’re free of all that fantasy genre baggage. I’ve never been a D&D fan and the prequels/sequels are much more in that style. They’re very bogged down with lineage and someone taking the form of someone.

Star Wars, Rogue One, and Solo are stories of good guys battling the bad guys to get something or defeat someone. They don’t concern themselves with Fantasy elements and centuries-long lineage of a mystical chosen one. As soon as it became apparent that Rey wasn’t Rey Random, she became much less interesting to me. As is the sequel trilogy.

Rose is much more interesting to me because she’s random. She was working on a ship, catches Finn trying to bail, stops him, and then she’s off and running, caught up in a larger story. Much more the way Luke is in Star Wars.

That’s also why the Zahn novels are more interesting to me, particularly those about Mara Jade and the Hand Of Judgement. Groups and people who are a step outside the Fantasy universe. Much more interesting than the tired Sith v Jedi lineage world of Lucas.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

"Probably not”

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Anchorhead said:

As soon as it became apparent that Rey wasn’t Rey Random, she became much less interesting to me. As is the sequel trilogy.

I must have missed that scene.

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With Palpatines return (doesnt matter which way) Kylos line about finishing what Vader started got me thinking.
Vaders last act was killing Palpatine physically, but his being survived.
Could the line refer to Ben ultimately defeating Palpatines ghost?

“You want to sell me Death sticks” -Obi-Vod Kanobi

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DominicCobb said:

Anchorhead said:

As soon as it became apparent that Rey wasn’t Rey Random, she became much less interesting to me. As is the sequel trilogy.

I must have missed that scene.

Rey has been chosen. She’s not a random person, or just anyone at the right moment, and the right time. The ST just replaced a genetic lotery with a cosmic lotery. The idea that any person can tap into the Force and be a Jedi through training, and hard work is as foreign to the ST as it was for the PT.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Anchorhead said:

As soon as it became apparent that Rey wasn’t Rey Random, she became much less interesting to me. As is the sequel trilogy.

I must have missed that scene.

Rey has been chosen. She’s not a random person, or just anyone at the right moment, and the right time. The ST just replaced a genetic lotery with a cosmic lotery. The idea that any person can tap into the Force and be a Jedi through training, and hard work is as foreign to the ST as it was for the PT.

That’s just speculation. And she’s still random either way.

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If that’s all it boils down to, why do we care about protagonists like Dorothy, Alice, or Charlie Bucket?

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Anchorhead said:

As soon as it became apparent that Rey wasn’t Rey Random, she became much less interesting to me. As is the sequel trilogy.

I must have missed that scene.

Rey has been chosen. She’s not a random person, or just anyone at the right moment, and the right time. The ST just replaced a genetic lotery with a cosmic lotery. The idea that any person can tap into the Force and be a Jedi through training, and hard work is as foreign to the ST as it was for the PT.

That’s just speculation.

You don’t choose what family your born into, so I don’t see much difference.

And she’s still random either way.

Being chosen and random are two different things. If it were random, some obnoxious smuck might also have recieved those powers.

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You said she won the cosmic lottery. Lotteries are random. That means she was randomly chosen. That’s what that word means. And whether she was “chosen” or not is completely debatable.

And who’s to say some obnoxious smuck doesn’t have that potential as well?

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DominicCobb said:

You said she won the cosmic lottery. Lotteries are random. That means she was randomly chosen. That’s what that word means. And whether she was “chosen” or not is completely debatable.

Touché, but considering how virtuous, and perfect she is, I take back the cosmic lotery statement, and maintain she was chosen to be the hero:

“Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

She is thus her destiny to be the defender of the light, not by choice.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

You said she won the cosmic lottery. Lotteries are random. That means she was randomly chosen. That’s what that word means. And whether she was “chosen” or not is completely debatable.

Touché, but considering how virtuous, and perfect she is, I take back the cosmic lotery statement, and maintain she was chosen to be the hero:

“Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

She is thus her destiny to be the defender of the light, not by choice.

That’s still your interpretation. It was someone’s destiny to defend the light. She made the choice to be that someone.

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

You said she won the cosmic lottery. Lotteries are random. That means she was randomly chosen. That’s what that word means. And whether she was “chosen” or not is completely debatable.

Touché, but considering how virtuous, and perfect she is, I take back the cosmic lotery statement, and maintain she was chosen to be the hero:

“Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

She is thus her destiny to be the defender of the light, not by choice.

That’s still your interpretation. It was someone’s destiny to defend the light. She made the choice to be that someone.

Little in the films indicate she made a choice to be the defender of the light. She has no motivation to join the fight, or be a Jedi, unlike Luke, who was shown to be bored out of his mind on Tatooine, and wanted to follow in his father’s footsteps, and even then it wasn’t clear whether he would be the hero, or take the quick and easy path. Rey didn’t work for it. It was just, shazam, and she had those powers, and thus became the light to Kylo’s darkness, apparently through the “will of the Force”, or whatever. The original idea behind the first film was, that anyone who put their mind to it, and put in the effort could tap into those powers, and become a Jedi. I don’t see how the ST’s events adhere more closely to this concept, than Lucas’ other films.

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DominicCobb said:

Anchorhead said:

As soon as it became apparent that Rey wasn’t Rey Random, she became much less interesting to me. As is the sequel trilogy.

I must have missed that scene.

I’ll admit to speculating, but at this point it seems unlikely she’s random. If she is, I’ll be the first to admit I was wrong.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

"Probably not”

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So nothing in TFA indicates that she accepted the call to action?

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RogueLeader said:

So nothing in TFA indicates that she accepted the call to action?

Man I don’t know how to respond without just recounting the events of the movies. I feel like I’ve done that too much.

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RogueLeader said:

So nothing in TFA indicates that she accepted the call to action?

For me choice is about more than a call to action. It’s about motivation. What’s Rey’s motivation for joining the fight, or wanting to be a Jedi, what is she prepared to do, and sacrifice to succeed? What are the personal consequences for her, if she doesn’t succeed? In my view it should be about more than being instantly endowed with great powers, and almost instantly becoming a hero, because of some innate goodness or something, or that the universe turned you into the foil for Kylo Ren overnight. If we look at the end of TFA, I ask the question why does Rey go to find Luke? It seems her personal motivation seems little more than she’s recieved phenominal cosmic powers, and is in search of guidance. If not for those she would likely still be on Jakku waiting for her family. In many ways Rey’s still an empty vessel without any real personality after two films. I hope that changes with episode IX.

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We’ve had this exact conversation so many times. It’s honestly insane.

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Though I think having these discussions are nice, because it helps me articulate why I like the movies.

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RogueLeader said:

Though I think having these discussions are nice, because it helps me articulate why I like the movies.

So do I.

Noah Lawson

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RogueLeader said:

I’m not saying it is a God, you can still interpret the Force as just a non-sentient system of nature that seeks to maintain balance. Force-users are conduits of the Force, and Force-users who allow the Force to act through them will naturally have the Force on their side.

“seeks to maintain balance” and “allow the Force to act through them” is still ascribing some form of decision making thought process to what is supposed to just be an energy field that links everything together.

RogueLeader said:
I feel like you can only see the Force in two ways: either it is a conscious, dynamic entity that guides people or a unconscious, static power source that Force-users draw their abilities from. But it isn’t that black and white. The Force isn’t that simple. It can be an energy field, but also have a will of its own, but it doesn’t necessarily make it conscious or unconscious. Am I making any sense?

Are you talking generally or that I personally can only see it two ways? Because in that case, I actually only see it one way which is as described and demonstrated in the OT and anything that clashes with that or has no logical reason as to why it suddenly works differently is going to make me strongly balk at accepting it.

Are you making sense? No as I don’t understand how an energy field can have a will of it’s own. It simply exists and any “output” it may have is always generated from an “input” at the same place or elsewhere. It is literal cause and effect and without force sensitive people around to tap into it, you would never know it is there nor ever see anything affected by it. Anything perceived as a “will of the Force” would be solely from external influences not known to those witnessing such an event (such as Snoke connecting Rey and Kylo without their knowledge, with Kylo initially asking “why is the Force connecting us like this?”).

RogueLeader said:
I think it is a bit of a mistake to think we understand the rules of the Force or what it exactly is. I think being set in one’s interpretation of the Force is exactly how the Jedi of the prequels lost their way.

I don’t think that we fully understand the Force ourselves except obviously what we are shown and told within the movies. I also am open to it changing, but only in the sense that it builds upon and logically respects what we already know and has come before it in previous movies.

RogueLeader said:
EDIT:
Just to add on to what I’m trying to say, check out this interview George Lucas did back in 1999. They really get into why George wanted to create the Force in Star Wars and what he wanted the audience, especially young people, to get from it.

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,23298-2,00.html

Yeah good interview (although one always wonders with George how much what he is saying in the moment has changed from the original conception and implementation) though it doesn’t change my understanding of the Force, in fact it pretty much lines up with what I said above. It might be meant to make young people of the day think about spirituality and maybe believe in some higher power (specifically God as GL puts it) but that’s all the Force is and the OT never ascribes any sort of actual god like attributes to the Force. I was brought up a christian myself (but now sit somewhere between Agnosticism and Ietsism) and the Force does line up that way in requiring faith to believe it exists but it never places any kind of central focus as to the source or will of such a force.

The fact Obiwan describes it as an energy field that is essentially everywhere means it is formless and thoughtless, it’s a natural phenomenon of the Star Wars galaxy that is without agency or purpose, it simply exists and can be used by people sensitive to it’s nature that does require faith and belief in something that can’t be seen or scientifically detected yet and is where George represents the mystery and higher power that religions also share but without actually defining the Force in such a fashion.

I feel that the story board and writer directors of the ST have misunderstood GL’s intention and thought process behind the Force, instead taking a more literal meaning from some of his comments and made the mistake in trying to bring in more religious elements and give the Force some agency as lazy ways to explain why Rey suddenly has these powers and isn’t held to the same rules as everyone else in the saga previously have been.

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I personally disagree, and I see I won’t change your opinion on that either, but that’s okay!