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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 77

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dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Yes, Palpatine bring back is a little lazy/fan-servicey, but him back won’t inherently make the story of TROS not “original” (an overrated concept to begin with). We don’t even know what him being back means or how he’ll factor in.

Yes. maybe we can save our soapbox speeches for after the actual movie is released.

But then maybe some of the exaggerated cynicism will no longer apply!

Though I guess that’s never stopped anyone before.

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I really hope this one is better than the first 2 movies, those ones weren’t terrible, but they came close to very bad lol. Hoping for a big come back this December! Roland -

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Didn’t The Clone Wars feature Darth Bane talking to Yoda? I never was a big fan of the series but watched that portion as I was delving into it based on a tip from smudger9 that there was some new Liam Neeson dialogue that could be culled for my Ep3 edit.

Anyway, wasn’t the appearance of Bane only a vision or phantom being animated by someone else? My understanding of Lucas’ intention (circa 2005+, at least) is that Qui-Gon (re?)discovered a way to eternal conscious persistence via the Light, which the Dark was incapable of providing. Light-siders could (potentially?) live on past death, but dark-siders couldn’t.

If that’s true, and J.J. isn’t stepping away from that, I’d say Palpatine’s role in IX would have to be merely an appearance rather than the being himself. I also cannot fathom Palpatine and the Death Star in the ocean being a coincidence.

And how the hell is there that big of a section of either Death Star still extant? Those things each blew up so thoroughly that I find it laughable. Circle any one of the specks that fly away from the center on your screen and tell me that it could have fallen into an atmosphere and survived to be that big.

I’m overall not encouraged too much by this trailer. I hope J.J. didn’t just implode in on himself while writing this one.

JEDIT: This might be sort of a drunk ramble sort of comment, but I’ll be especially frustrated if the Sequel Trilogy as a whole turns out to be flat or bankrupt because its announcement was what prompted an obsessive part of me to pour countless hours into doing my newer prequel fan edits.

Y’know, in the Summer of 2012 I watched the OOT and was happy not to follow it up with the prequels at all. I only did so because my wife wanted to, and we watched Q2’s edits. I shrugged afterward, and resolved to just revisit the OT every few years. I was happy; I was fine. Then in October Disney changed everything and I felt like I had to satisfy my tireless perfectionism by going back to the prequels. If the ST ends up detracting from the OT rather than at least enhancing it, it’s gonna really suck for me.

God damn those prequel movies.

PM me for links to my edits; apparently, some feel shy about this.

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The DS explosion is clearly in the upper half, so the dish could have been blown off by the concussion wave and the flash makes it impossible to see.

The specks were a lot bigger in ROTJ, probably big enough to leave a large crater or ruin your day if it lands nearby, and it was a lot closer to Endor than DS1 was to Yavin 4…

They cut away after this frame, so there’s wiggle room for falling debris.

The wreckage could also have gone into a wide orbit of the Endor system and fallen on another nearby planet months or years later.

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Hal 9000 said:

Didn’t The Clone Wars feature Darth Bane talking to Yoda? I never was a big fan of the series but watched that portion as I was delving into it based on a tip from smudger9 that there was some new Liam Neeson dialogue that could be culled for my Ep3 edit.

Anyway, wasn’t the appearance of Bane only a vision or phantom being animated by someone else? My understanding of Lucas’ intention (circa 2005+, at least) is that Qui-Gon (re?)discovered a way to eternal conscious persistence via the Light, which the Dark was incapable of providing. Light-siders could (potentially?) live on past death, but dark-siders couldn’t.

If that’s true, and J.J. isn’t stepping away from that, I’d say Palpatine’s role in IX would have to be merely an appearance rather than the being himself. I also cannot fathom Palpatine and the Death Star in the ocean being a coincidence.

And how the hell is there that big of a section of either Death Star still extant? Those things each blew up so thoroughly that I find it laughable. Circle any one of the specks that fly away from the center on your screen and tell me that it could have fallen into an atmosphere and survived to be that big.

I’m overall not encouraged too much by this trailer. I hope J.J. didn’t just implode in on himself while writing this one.

JEDIT: This might be sort of a drunk ramble sort of comment, but I’ll be especially frustrated if the Sequel Trilogy as a whole turns out to be flat or bankrupt because its announcement was what prompted an obsessive part of me to pour countless hours into doing my newer prequel fan edits.

Y’know, in the Summer of 2012 I watched the OOT and was happy not to follow it up with the prequels at all. I only did so because my wife wanted to, and we watched Q2’s edits. I shrugged afterward, and resolved to just revisit the OT every few years. I was happy; I was fine. Then in October Disney changed everything and I felt like I had to satisfy my tireless perfectionism by going back to the prequels. If the ST ends up detracting from the OT rather than at least enhancing it, it’s gonna really suck for me.

God damn those prequel movies.

If Uplifting of Shmi Progeny turns out to be a pile of Sith then at least The Final Space Wizard could serve as a fitting end to the saga. It even has ‘Last’ in the title.

JEDIT about the DS2 above, I agree that the explosion could have simply gutted the interior and broken the exterior like an egg.

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Hal 9000 said:

Didn’t The Clone Wars feature Darth Bane talking to Yoda? I never was a big fan of the series but watched that portion as I was delving into it based on a tip from smudger9 that there was some new Liam Neeson dialogue that could be culled for my Ep3 edit.

Anyway, wasn’t the appearance of Bane only a vision or phantom being animated by someone else? My understanding of Lucas’ intention (circa 2005+, at least) is that Qui-Gon (re?)discovered a way to eternal conscious persistence via the Light, which the Dark was incapable of providing. Light-siders could (potentially?) live on past death, but dark-siders couldn’t.

You are correct. Since then, though, some canon material like a Darth Vader comic series and the animated show Rebels have implied that a Sith could find a way to cheat death (not necessarily spiritual immortality, but ways to preserve or bring back their physical bodies, but this never really works out). As others have said, it is possible Palpatine’s spirit is just trapped within the place he died, like a ghost that haunts the ruins of the Death Star. Or, they could just find a hologram or holocron of the Emperor. Whatever it may be, I’m just gonna hope they have a decent explanation for it and try not to worry too much over the little information we currently have. And hey, if we aren’t happy with it, isn’t that what fan edits are for? But yeah, hopefully it won’t come to that, but I am also on the side that it actually isn’t Palpatine reborn, so we can focus on the existing characters. We’ll see I guess.

And how the hell is there that big of a section of either Death Star still extant? Those things each blew up so thoroughly that I find it laughable. Circle any one of the specks that fly away from the center on your screen and tell me that it could have fallen into an atmosphere and survived to be that big.

I also see this as a thing a future ROTJ edit could change (by having the Death Star blow up in chunks). This is something I could see Ady do in Revisited.

JEDIT: This might be sort of a drunk ramble sort of comment, but I’ll be especially frustrated if the Sequel Trilogy as a whole turns out to be flat or bankrupt because its announcement was what prompted an obsessive part of me to pour countless hours into doing my newer prequel fan edits.

Y’know, in the Summer of 2012 I watched the OOT and was happy not to follow it up with the prequels at all. I only did so because my wife wanted to, and we watched Q2’s edits. I shrugged afterward, and resolved to just revisit the OT every few years. I was happy; I was fine. Then in October Disney changed everything and I felt like I had to satisfy my tireless perfectionism by going back to the prequels. If the ST ends up detracting from the OT rather than at least enhancing it, it’s gonna really suck for me.

God damn those prequel movies.

Please don’t think this! The announcement of the Sequel Trilogy inspired your Prequel Edits, but I would argue that your Prequel edits have and will inspire further edits of the Sequel Trilogy. And I think we will eventually have solid, cohesive edits of the entire Skywalker Saga. That is at least my own hope/vision.

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If Palpatine is a small role as some sort of Bane-like spirit, but his character has an ethereal effect on the film and story and characters as a whole - or something along those lines - I probably wouldn’t have much to complain about. There’s likely a decent way to involve the character and his lasting impact (and bring the saga “full circle”) without cheesily bringing him back to life and forcing him into a literal/physical big bad role.

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While I think that might be the likely answer, I am also starting to think JJ and Co. needed a new big bad to have Rey’s team and Kylo’s team join forces. So to do that, they’re gonna have Palpatine come back. Nothing against Pappa Palpatine, but I think having a third party “Great Evil” is a contrived, or lazy, way to resolve the conflict between the Resistance and the First Order, or more specifically Rey and Kylo Ren. I personally wish they would find a way to resolve the conflict amongst themselves, but it really is pretty early to say what is going to happen (and if it will work/won’t work).

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I would think Snoke’s death is directly tied to Palpatine’s reemergence. That he poses the whole “darkness rises and light to meet it” thing gives pause as to whether or not there’s a more abstract spiritual thing going on here with the force and the people who channel it.

“The force does not belong to the Jedi” but all that’s left of the force are the Jedi at the end of the OT. Vader, despite being who he was for most of his life, arrived at the same spiritual plane Yoda and Obi-Wan reside in. Palpatine in his knowledge of ‘unnatural abilities’ surely could pull off the same trick without redemption, but the effects were subdued. Paranormal Dark Side is secondary to Terrestrial Dark Side, and so Snoke makes himself known again, pulling the Skywalker lineage right into his evil abyss with a reach a dead Palpatine simply couldn’t muster.

Luke cuts himself off from the force, Leia hides her power. The light side needs to course correct; and so Rey emerges as the light of the future. Ben and Luke are none the wiser to realize that this will be an endless loop unless the precedent is destroyed, and so Ben cuts off the loop from its origin, but oops! Now the Force needs to course correct the other way, and so the nether world’s orbit shrinks such that it can reach the playing field. This would also account for why Yoda/Obi-Wan/Anakin pop in and out of existence for the most sporadic of times. And with rage and determination keeping his will alive, old Palpy is back to see how much Sith witchcraft he can ring dry to angle himself into power once again, no matter the physical form. Luminous beings are we…

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Swazzy, I think you give them too much credit. Too much. But interesting line of thought.

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nl0428 said:

Fang Zei said:

I want to say there was a Star Wars novel with that title as well, but that could be my memory playing tricks on me.

There was one. I also have a novel that was released as promotion for Revenge of the Sith’s release about Obi-Wan beginning his exile on Tatooine called, “The Last of the Jedi”.


Last of the Jedi was actually another 10 book YA series written by Jude Watson and as usual despite the ending kinda being obvious was a better written and told tale than anything Disney has yet done. It directly picks up from the Jedi Quest series which went between TPM and AOTC and this series is between ROTS and pre-ANH.

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I think the new books have the clue. They have spent time building a contingency plan that Palpatine put in place that led to the rise of the First Order. So the First Order is Palpatine’s doing, not Snoke. Snoke just took over. And not only did Kennedy and Abrams have Lucas’s treatment for the ST, but they even brought the man himself in to help them steer this movie to a proper saga conclusion.

One thing that really irks me is blaming the parent company. I have seen not one shred of evidence that Disney had dictated anything to Lucasfilm regarding this trilogy. What I have seen is that a lot of the complaints blame Disney and are then found to have come from Lucas himself. I know some fanboys don’t like Rey, but she was basically Lucas’s invention. I think Palptine coming back will have more significance than just a big bad for the ending. I don’t think he will play a role beyond Rey and Kylo’s story. Kylo idolizes Vader and thinks that he is going to finish what Vader started, but everything that happened in the PT and OT was Palpatine’s plan, not Vader’s. What will happen when Kylo finds that out? Finds out that Vader was just a tool Palpatine used. They are saying (and if it is like Lucas’s sayings, you know how accurate that is) that Palpatine coming back was in the plan from the beginning (meaning they had a plan and TLJ’s middle chapter was not full of random Rian Johnson events) so I think we can blame this idea firmly on George. I think that Kylo needs to confront Palpatine and Anakin (as ghosts probably) to come to terms with who he is and what direction his life needs to take. What Kennedy, Abrams, Lucas, and Terrio actually do could differ greatly, but the last two films have a lot of hints that Kylo is trying to be dark but really isn’t.

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And just a note, the Death Star remnants we seen in the trailer are the 1st death star. The inner ring in the dish gives it away. The first Death Star has a ring closer to the edge and the second Death Star has a ring much further in. The trailer has a ring closer to the edge. Not to say that the story won’t go the other way, but Abrams seems too big a nerd to use the wrong Death Star image.

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I’d have to see a side by side comparison to be convinced of that. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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I’ll just leave this here…

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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@SilverWook, lol.

What if the name Skywalker in the title is to throw everyone off, so there can be a big reveal as to who Rey’s parents are. What if we find out that she’s a Kenobi or a Palpatine.

I’m just curious if JJ is adding a WTF moment, like in The Empire Strikes Back. I’m sure it’s just a few people who really know and shot the scene, much like they did in 1979 with this script change, “Obi-wan killed your father/I…am your father.” It was probably JJ, Daisy, and like two others on set that day.

Or…maybe not.

I can do the voices of C-3PO, Old Ben Kenobi, the Emperor, and Yoda.

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I’ve honestly stayed partial to the Snoke = Plagueis theory since 2015, and Palpatine coming back does little to change my mind LOL

Plagueis found a way to cheat death like he wanted, finds/is found by the remnants of his former apprentice’s Empire, and assumes control of it, thinking himself obviously more powerful than his apprentice. But Palpatine from the grave somehow influences Ben to join the dark side and help Snoke, under the guise of being the whispers he hears of his grandfather. In TLJ, Ben, all according to Palps’ plan, betrayed Plagueis/Snoke, re-asserting Sidious’s dominance over his master.

With Ben’s faith in Vader restored, maybe whatever macguffin everyone is after in IX - Ben will have thought he was pursuing for himself/Vader - but will be revealed as what whatever Palps’ ghost wanted all along.

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With Palpatine back, I’d like to see Rey revealed to be his granddaughter. I think that would be a fantastic twist that would both explain her powers and symbolically tie everything into a neat bow.

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NeverarGreat said:

Rey being a nobody is the one ‘twist’ that actually worked in TLJ, so that would be a nah from me.

I agree with you. Let her be her own character. I’m fine with Kylo Ren being the only new character in the trilogy to be the descendant of familiar characters.

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NeverarGreat said:

Rey being a nobody is the one ‘twist’ that actually worked in TLJ, so that would be a nah from me.

I would have been completely fine with her being a nobody if there were valid reasons and demonstrations as to how she became so powerful and proficient in the force over the course of a week or two.

Because they dont, she needs SOME sort of lineage to help explain it but even then its pretty weak sauce though it could have worked well in conjunction with her instead having raw and untrained power that is unwieldly and actually dangerous to both foe and friends and she needs the training and discipline that either Luke, Snoke or Kylo could give her to help her learn to control it.

The arguments of “what the ST needs” dont wash with me as its at the expense of the OT and those that understand its universe rules as a result of having watched it for the past 40+ years. If they want to change them and how the force works, there has to be real justification that makes sense and retains context to the original rules. They don’t just get to say “this is how it works now” and leave it at that, they have to earn the changes.

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The lineage thing doesn’t even make sense. The only powerful force users have force user parents? In a galaxy where the most powerful force users are celibate?

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For that matter, why aren’t the Sith mating like rabbits to overwhelm the Jedi? Rule of two my asteroid! 😛

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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You guys always take it to extremes that make it sound ridiculous and actually misses the point being made.

No where did I say that due to Rey’s power level and command of the force that all force users should have to inherit it. Ive always understood from the get go in the OT that anyone can use the force and its a combination of your own force sensitivity and effort dedicated to learning to harness it that ultimately defines to what extent your power and control of the force will reach. Like everything though that is derived from your own organic being, force sensitivity is a biological trait that can be passed on and changed depending on who you make your kid/s with.

So there’s absolutely no reason why someone with no bilogical ties at all to any of the current powerful force users could not also reach or surpass those same levels. But in Rey’s case, without the necessary training over some dynamic but not insignificant time, there has to be some logical reason to how she got this immense power and control in the force and having parents who are renowned for being strong in the force goes a long way to explaining this with the timeframe we’ve actually been given. It doesn’t go all the way though which is why I suggested that her powers also be dangerously unwieldy and at times random since without training she shouldn’t have a clue as to what she’s doing which actually gives her a reason to find Luke or join Snoke or Kylo. It would also have actually given some more interest and dynamics to her character, maybe even helped give her a proper arc.