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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 74

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If we are to believe that Palpatine was in the plan for the ST all along. Then I guess the “Darth Sidious” name-drop in TLJ was very clever on their part.

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Everything that happened on Endor in ROTJ probably took place within walking distance of each other. I never thought the entire planet was as Ric would say, one big forest. 😃

Would be cool if we saw some Duloks as a nod to the old Ewoks cartoon.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

nl0428 said:

SilverWook said:

Are we all forgetting how the EU brought Palpatine back more times than Jason Voorhees? And if we look to one of Lucas’ inspirations, Flash Gordon, Ming The Merciless always survives somehow to menace another day.

There was even a fan edit around here where Palpatine was going to survive ROTJ. Don’t know if it was ever finished.

The old Expanded Universe were wiped away from canon for some pretty good reasons. One of those being the cloning of familiar characters. Ever since George Lucas introduced the concept of cloning in Attack of the Clones, some writers have written some pretty silly stories.

There is, of course, the army of clones Palpatine had archived that became a threat to Luke after Return of the Jedi, and there are the evil clones Luke had as well. Their names were “Luuke”, and “Luuuke”. And let’s also not forget about the clones Vader made of Starkiller in The Force Unleashed II.

Whatever Lucasfilm does with Palpatine’s role in The Rise of Skywalker, it will be much more well written and better told for how Palpatine returns. Whether he survived, or he is a Dark Side Force spirit, we’ll see what happens this December. It will also be exciting to see that Palpatine will not only be a threat to Rey, but a threat to Ben as well.

I think Marvel cornered the market on clone saturation long before Lucasfilm did. 😉

If Thrawn can be plucked from the EU and used in Rebels, than ideas can be cherry picked from it as well?

True, but Star Wars is not Marvel. Also, Thrawn being used in Rebels is a way where things from the old Expanded Universe can work well within the context of the narrative. I personally believe that future Star Wars content should stay away from cloning. Keeping it strictly during the Clone Wars is the way to do it.

Noah Lawson

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DZ-330 said:

If we are to believe that Palpatine was in the plan for the ST all along. Then I guess the “Darth Sidious” name-drop in TLJ was very clever on their part.

and also Palpatine’s voice being heard in TFA as well.

(in Rey’s vision - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FATqyG8cGSE & https://www.thisisinsider.com/star-wars-reys-vision-explained-2017-7)
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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oojason said:

DZ-330 said:

If we are to believe that Palpatine was in the plan for the ST all along. Then I guess the “Darth Sidious” name-drop in TLJ was very clever on their part.

and also Palpatine’s voice being heard in TFA as well.

(in Rey’s vision - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FATqyG8cGSE & https://www.thisisinsider.com/star-wars-reys-vision-explained-2017-7)
 

Furthermore, in the throne room scene in TLJ Snoke refers to the Resistance as the Rebels. “I did not expect Skywalker to to be so wise. We will give him and the Jedi Order the death he desires. After the Rebels are gone we will go to the planet and obliterate the entire island.”

Adds fuel to the Snoke being a Palpatine-vessel theory.

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joefavs said:

Here’s the article I’ve been trying to remember ever since Palpy turned up yesterday. It’s got to have something to do with this, right? https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Contingency

Yeah this is what I’m talking about. Palpatine and his contingency plan has been such a prominent part of the new canon that it makes me think a return has been a potential for awhile.

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joefavs said:

Kennedy says they were always working towards Palpatine in IX, even though they didn’t always know exactly how they were going to get there.

https://twitter.com/djkevlar/status/1116837650520997888?s=21

I mean, if that is true (which is possible), why no hints at the very least in TFA and TLJ? Obviously JJ and Rian were given free reign which I appreciate, but small hints, that’s not the kind of thing that would go against that.

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There was the Sidious namedrop in TLJ, but idk if that really counts.

Gone fishing

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snooker said:

There was the Sidious namedrop in TLJ, but idk if that really counts.

I wouldn’t say so, considering the context. Closest thing in my mind was playing the Emperor’s theme while Rey got tortured, but even that doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

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“This movie had a very, very specific challenge, which was to take eight films and give an ending to three trilogies, and so we had to look at, what is the bigger story? We had conversations amongst ourselves, we met with George Lucas before we started writing the script,” Abrams, who co-wrote and directed both “The Force Awakens” and “The Rise of Skywalker,” told IGN.

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/04/george-lucas-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-jj-abrams-1202058551/amp/

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I’m not offended by the potential of a Palpatine return (in whatever form) at all. If anything, it helps me to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory rather than ‘the’ victory when viewing the ST, because the ‘Empire vs Rebels’ reset is so stark. ROTJ still stands - the Death Star was destroyed, the Empire crippled (if not eliminated), Vader got his redemption, Luke got his knighthood - so for me a downsizing of ROTJ’s overall significance/finality is not so bad. Since TFA I’ve kind of seen the ST as a nod to the ROTJ that could have been - disillusioned Luke wandering off into the sunset, Leia leading the remains of her people, Han sacrificing himself etc etc.

What saddens me is that I felt nothing on my initial viewing of the new teaser. Every other teaser/trailer (except for RO and SOLO) has hooked me - irrespective of the consequent movies. This time I was like “eh, whatever”. My ‘canon brain’ has switched off in terms of viewing the ST as legitimate Star Wars, and that’s because there are no intriguing threads left by TLJ in terms of what’s to come. Still, the resulting conversations here and elsewhere have caused my anticipation to rise somewhat. The apathy rises, and the anticipation to meet it…

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If TROS is truly amazing, could The Last Jedi become sort of Attack of the Clones for binge-watching? I wonder if you can enjoy 4, 5, 3, 6, 7, 9 without losing too much of the story? Probably a futile thought because we have amazing edits already available which make 8 quite enjoyable.

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bromeo said:

If TROS is truly amazing, could The Last Jedi become sort of Attack of the Clones for binge-watching? I wonder if you can enjoy 4, 5, 3, 6, 7, 9 without losing too much of the story? Probably a futile thought because we have amazing edits already available which make 8 quite enjoyable.

I don’t think so. I believe that The Last Jedi is a very important entry to the series in story. In terms of making an impact on the franchise, I would say that it’s the second most important Star Wars film.

Noah Lawson

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I’ve seen a few people say they don’t like The Rise of Skywalker as the title. My friends don’t, and I’ll admit I didn’t like it at first either (I was holding out hope for Balance of the Force), but the more I’ve thought about it, the more I actually think it’s really appropriate. Here’s my interpretation:

If you think about it, Luke has really been the focus of the new trilogy, or more specifically, what he and the Jedi represent, which is HOPE.

Leia wanted to find Luke in TFA because she felt he was the key to stopping the First Order, partially because of his power, but also because his influence as the legendary Jedi could sway the New Republic into taking the First Order threat seriously.

In TLJ, Leia and the Resistance were desperate for Luke’s help not only for his power, but also because the Jedi represent hope, and that hope returning could help inspire the galaxy and the remnants of the Republic to unite against the invading First Order.

Even though Luke didn’t rejoin the fight for long, the tale of Luke’s mythic stand against the First Order and Kylo Ren has spread throughout the galaxy, and so the rise of Skywalker’s legend has reignited hope in the allies of the Resistance to also fight back against this common enemy.

It’s likely additional interpretations will be made more apparent once we see the film, as the titles often have, but I’m sold on the title now. For those who aren’t happy with it yet I hope you’ll come around to embrace it as I have. I’m pumped for IX, y’all.

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nl0428 said:

bromeo said:

If TROS is truly amazing, could The Last Jedi become sort of Attack of the Clones for binge-watching? I wonder if you can enjoy 4, 5, 3, 6, 7, 9 without losing too much of the story? Probably a futile thought because we have amazing edits already available which make 8 quite enjoyable.

I don’t think so. I believe that The Last Jedi is a very important entry to the series in story. In terms of making an impact on the franchise, I would say that it’s the second most important Star Wars film.

Define “important”

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I’m not just trying to be cute, but I think bringing back Palpatine shows a tremendous lack of vision.

Is the Lucasfilm story team so unconfident in these new movies that they need to drudge up an already established villain? For that matter why does every big budget movie need a big, dumb bad guy? Do they think audiences are too stupid to enjoy a movie without one?

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Let’s not turn this into the TLJ debate thread?

And I don’t think Palpy qualifies as a big dumb bad guy. He engineered a decades long plot to put himself into power and played both sides against each other to do it. Sure, it was almost Rube Goldberg in excecution, but you can’t deny the twisted old fart had a plan.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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With the 2004 release of ESB adding a line of dialogue to Palpatine and TLJ’s “Death Star tech,” the only film (in their current official presentations) NOT to invoke the Death Star in some way is The Phantom Menace. 😦

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pleasehello said:

nl0428 said:

bromeo said:

If TROS is truly amazing, could The Last Jedi become sort of Attack of the Clones for binge-watching? I wonder if you can enjoy 4, 5, 3, 6, 7, 9 without losing too much of the story? Probably a futile thought because we have amazing edits already available which make 8 quite enjoyable.

I don’t think so. I believe that The Last Jedi is a very important entry to the series in story. In terms of making an impact on the franchise, I would say that it’s the second most important Star Wars film.

Define “important”

There are two ways of defining the importance of The Last Jedi. Both the impact and the story.

The reason why the story is important is because, just like how The Empire Strikes Back took Luke, Han, Leia and Vader to new directions, The Last Jedi took Rey, Ben and Luke to the same direction.

The biggest weakness that is found within Rey is how she clings onto the past, believing that her parents may return someday. She learns that she must move forward and understand that returning to Jakku only to wait for them will not change a thing in her life, despite the fact that she’s already known that her parents were unimportant, despite holding onto hope that the truth she believes is incorrect. Now she understands her place and how to move on.

Ben’s biggest weakness is that he is holding onto the hatred and anger towards his childhood, past and family that had built up in him as Snoke continued to corrupt and manipulate his mind. While his goal of “letting the past die” is where he needs to strive towards, he is not going about it in the right direction. The only act of moving in the direction he needs to be striving towards that he committed as of now is murdering Snoke. He had put an end to the reason why his childhood became more dark and lonely as he grew older, and he saw this as Snoke had berated him, connected him and Rey through the Force, and tortured Rey. However, unlike Rey, he hasn’t let go of his past feelings quite as much as she has. He still doesn’t trust his family and the people he grew up with. This is why he wants to rule the Galaxy with Rey, and he never wanted to become the Supreme Leader either. He only took upon the role to save himself from the First Order. By the end, while he may have failed, he has still been given a chance of redemption from Luke and Rey.

Luke’s growth in the film came from his role as a Jedi Master. While he may have been a hero at the end of Return of the Jedi, that doesn’t necessarily mean that characters stay as the same person over a large amount of time. As Luke grew more older and carried out Yoda’s words of “passing on what he had learned”, he started his Jedi Academy. Luke, while wise in the Force, still had areas that he needed to grow in, such as his role of becoming a teacher and an uncle. From what was seen, it can be inferred that just like Han and Leia, Luke may have been more impatient with Ben than his sister and brother-in-law. He struggled as an uncle in helping to raise his uncle. When he saw the darkness in Ben, his first instinct, that he nearly committed was to kill him. Even though the situation between him and Ben is different between him and Vader, Luke is now put into a different role. He is now the older guardian above Ben, whereas he was younger than Anakin. Now that Luke had taken on the role of a Jedi Master, he had come to a knew way of thinking as a both a Jedi, and as a person. Once he had realized what he had done by taking out his lightsaber, Ben acted on self-defense and committed to Snoke’s mentoring teachings. All of this couldn’t’ve have happened if Luke had decided to spend more quality time with his nephew and help train him, to take on a responsible, yet caring role as an uncle. The first telling of the story he told Rey, I assure was the version of the story he told Han and Leia before going into hiding. Luke had gone into hiding and closed himself off from the Force due to failing his nephew, his sister and brother-in-law, and as a Jedi. It isn’t until Rey and Yoda are able to help convince him where to grow as a person, and especially as a Jedi. The scene with Yoda is a prime example of character growth, as is Ben smashing his mask. By projecting himself through the Force on Crait and saving the Resistance, yet also confronting his fallen nephew once more, Luke had come back from all of the guilt and shame that had clouded over him and had become even more stronger than he already once was, as well as projecting himself. Luke soon gave his life to become one with the Force, understanding that he had now played his role, and understanding that it is time for Leia, Rey and Ben to finish what he had started. Very much like how Timothy Zahn had described in Spectre in the Past, “If Luke’s own current level of knowledge was any indication, Yoda could surely have defeated the Emperor all by himself. Yet he’d chosen instead to leave that task to Luke and the Rebel Alliance.” Luke has now taken upon the role Yoda once did in the Original Trilogy.

As for the impact the film made, I believe that it introduced many new concepts within character growth, maturity and development, as well as deeper storytelling and more additions to the Star Wars mythology. I think these quotes from Rian Johnson in an interview with Los Angeles Times says it all.

“It’s fun because it’s kind of thinking, ‘OK, outside of the Skywalker story and outside of the recognizable iconography, what is this? What is “Star Wars”?’ Or what do we need to retain from that, to pull forward for it to still be ‘Star Wars’ — and what can we leave behind?”

“They’re all the big questions that need to be thought of. And even the ones that we don’t know the answers to are things we need to figure out if ‘Star Wars’ is going to be vital and alive moving forward and not just be a waxworks. We’re going to have to figure out how to tell vital new stories.”

"When people ask me, ‘Don’t you think people are going to get sick of ‘Star Wars’ movies?’ to me that question indicates that they’re thinking of ‘Star Wars’ movies as a museum exhibit that is wheeled out once a year so you can say, ‘Oh, I loved that thing. Oh, I remember that thing!’ And yes, if ‘Star Wars’ is that, people are going to get sick of it really quickly.

“But if ‘Star Wars’ are great new movies that are exciting and fresh, and that challenge you and surprise you and make you feel things and engage you the way that those original movies did — but always taking you to new places, both in the galaxy and emotionally — that’s never going to get old. That’s what it’s all about.”

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-star-wars-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-20180403-story.html

However you think of how I interpreted Episode VIII, you may agree or disagree. That’s the fun of film fandom, we all have our likes and dislikes of different properties. We all have our opinions.

Noah Lawson

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SilverWook said:

Let’s not turn this into the TLJ debate thread?

And I don’t think Palpy qualifies as a big dumb bad guy. He engineered a decades long plot to put himself into power and played both sides against each other to do it. Sure, it was almost Rube Goldberg in excecution, but you can’t deny the twisted old fart had a plan.

Yeah, I should qualify by saying he’s no dummy in the prequels, but retconning him and the entire story of the ST to make him the big bad guy pulling the strings may be the dumbest idea that I can think of. It’s fan service and it appeals to the lowest common denominator of moviegoers who need a big bad guy and would prefer it if it’s someone they already know, so they don’t have to think.

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bromeo said:

If TROS is truly amazing, could The Last Jedi become sort of Attack of the Clones for binge-watching? I wonder if you can enjoy 4, 5, 3, 6, 7, 9 without losing too much of the story? Probably a futile thought because we have amazing edits already available which make 8 quite enjoyable.

Ah, a Machete Order in the making! If TROS is good, I think that’s probably what will happen. As ‘necessary’ as Luke’s death and Kylo’s mask issues are, I think many fans will overlook this and just do eps 7 and 9 a la carte.