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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 63

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Do you think they’ll take a page from Endgame’s marketing and wait until the trailer drops (presumably at Celebration) to even tell us what the title is?

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That’s what it is starting to seem like. I believe the title for TFA dropped not long after production wrapped. Production for IX wrapped last month. It is possible they could announce it this month, but I’m starting to think they will wait until Celebration. Some people think that it will be before, because they think there will probably be Episode IX merch with the title on it, which would make it harder to keep under wraps.

I think there are good arguments for both, but we will definitely get it by April 12th or 13th. If that’s the case, it will probably be revealed with the trailer, and it’ll also be attached to Endgame, which will be coming out later that month, on April 26th.

If it drops before then, it’ll be a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.

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nl0428 said:

DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Yeah, excitement isn’t going to start building until the marketing starts, and Disney isn’t gonna start marketing it until after Endgame so as not to draw attention away from their other big finale blockbuster of the year.

They’ll put that trailer before Endgame for sure.

Or at Star Wars: Celebration in Chicago.

Both

Fang Zei said:

Do you think they’ll take a page from Endgame’s marketing and wait until the trailer drops (presumably at Celebration) to even tell us what the title is?

At this point I think yes.

RogueLeader said:

Some people think that it will be before, because they think there will probably be Episode IX merch with the title on it, which would make it harder to keep under wraps.

This leads me to something I’ve been thinking about, do you think we might see the “Episode IX” title slip into any of the marketing materials? I could potentially see it here and there as there might be added emphasis on this being (supposedly) the final episode.

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SilverWook said:

I kind of doubt Luke is feeling too sentimental about the saber he was holding when his hand was lopped off on what was possibly the worst day of his life. 😉

I think that’s far too simplistic a view. Regardless of what happened on the day he lost it, it was his father’s lightsaber (who did save him, his friends and the galaxy at large from the Emperor in the end), it was also given to him by Obi-wan who is now gone and Luke would have many memories of his own with it between receiving it as a “certain point of view” hand-me-down birthright, training with and using it across 3+ years up till the point it was cut from his grasp (or his grasp was cut off? 😛 ).

Sure the day he lost it was pretty traumatic but that doesn’t automatically delete any sentimental or other value Luke may put in the saber and just because he throws away and later turns down the saber again doesn’t mean he wouldn’t go back at a later time or day to pick it back up. If he really wanted to get rid of it / not see it again for all time he could have just as easily force thrown it out into the ocean when Rey first gives it to him. He mightn’t have cared for it in the moment but that still doesn’t give Rey leave to just take it.

I know in my own reality that someone turning away something I offer that is rightfully theirs doesn’t give me leave to keep it without actual consent and that same moral compass extends to our perception of character actions and motives in Star Wars, no matter how far away it’s galaxy is. The fact Luke tossed it instead of handing it back to Rey could have also meant that he didn’t want anyone to have it, another reason again that without some form of verbal consent or unmistakable sign, it wasn’t Rey’s place to just take it. That fact she did because of whatever reason doesn’t undo the wrong doing of the act itself and so this needs to be taken into consideration when looking at her character along with how she hit him in the back and threatened him with the very same saber.

I’m not saying the movie wasn’t allowed to do this but it is why one (such as myself) might see it as a reason among many others not to like Rey’s character 😉

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DominicCobb said:
So Ben is the presumed heir and birthright of the Skywalker legacy and their immense force power but this fucks with his head and he messes up, meanwhile Rey is a nobody who no one expects anything of but who manages to achieve that which was expected of Ben simply because of his lineage… maybe this was on purpose.

Maybe it was, but from what has happened so far I don’t agree that Rey deserves to be the new bearer and heir to the Skywalker legacy and what you said doesn’t explain why she (as a nobody that has only spent maybe a few hours tops with Leia and the resistance command) gets to just inherit everything that is technically Ben’s. It also doesn’t make sense in that regard to why Rey and only Rey is sent to talk to / bring the now legendary Luke Skywalker back (Chewie does nothing except fly her there and smash down Luke’s door so Rey can barge in to lecture Luke, R2 just shows up to play the hologram video from ANH). Rey has only been in the picture where the OT characters are concerned for 0.11% of that time (0-34ABY) yet takes on board Luke & Han’s mantle, gets their iconic items and is fully trusted with potentially the entire future of the resistance that is resting all it’s hopes on finding Luke. The scenario is incredibly forced to say the least.

DominicCobb said:
Doubtful he helped him construct it as it wasn’t his first saber (silly Lucas). My point of comparison was a joke. It’s ridiculous to use the word stolen in either regard. But it is a term more accurate for Obi-wan, as the item was literally in Anakin’s possession as he took it. If you’re going to get nitpicky about something completely irrelevant like who the lightsaber actually belongs to, don’t forget Anakin never gave it away, so your point is on shaky ground.

You’re right regarding the saber (but I don’t understand your Lucas comment) since it was probably his first one that got destroyed in AOTC, though this doesn’t refute the other reasons as to why Obi-wan would take Anakin’s saber.

I’m not getting nit picky though, if you want to compare the two then these things need to be recognised so you can determine which elements in each case are apples and which are oranges and then see which of them line up. Also regardless of who currently possesses it, it will always be Anakin’s lightsaber as he made and used it in its initial life. When someone legitimately claims it as theirs down the track, yes you would call it their lightsaber (ie. “Luke’s lightsabre”) but when being respectful of it’s history you would still call it “Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber” or some descriptor as to their relation to yourself like “my dad’s lightsaber”.

Just because Disney markets the toy and replica sabers as “Rey’s Lightsaber” doesn’t mean when actually describing its history that you wouldn’t say “It’s actually Anakin Skylwalker’s second/third lightsaber which was inherited and used by his son Luke Skywalker, found by Maz Canata who gave it to Rey to return to Luke but kept it for herself without consent when Luke declined to accept it from her.”

In my view, Rey never asked Luke if she could keep it and Luke never at any stage said she could actually take it and therefore my opinion of the matter is that she unwittingly stole it even though she probably wouldn’t see it that way and the movie doesn’t expect you to since you’re supposed to be rooting for Rey and not thinking to deeply. But those are the facts.

DominicCobb said:
“Something of huge sentimental value” - clearly not, at least in that moment, as he throws it away. You’re missing the vital semiotic meaning of the saber. It’s a whole lot more than just an object that someone does or does not have ownership over.

As explained to SilverWook above, you can’t simply dismiss any and all value due to a person’s immediate reaction and irrespective of the current circumstances and events leading up to that point. Him tossing it away doesn’t nullify any value he might or does still hold towards it. He could be supressing any number of feelings and memories about it at the time but later on as circumstances change, so could those feelings. Regardless of this, it’s still not Rey’s right to simply acquire his dad’s lightsaber under the assumption he simply doesn’t want it anymore. If she pretends to understand even half of the history around it, she would just leave it sitting near his shack where he will see it and leave.

DominicCobb said:
Man, I gotta circle back to this because your description of events is crazy. Let’s follow Rey’s path with the lightsaber, shall we? Maz gives it to her (who knows where she got it from), but she rejects it. Maz then gives it to Finn, who fumbles with it until he gets knocked out. Rey then grabs the saber in a pitched moment to face Kylo. From there, she searches for Luke and offers him back the saber. He takes it, but then throws it away,

Yep, all correct up till here.

DominicCobb said:
…not actually wanting it.

I don’t think this can be accurately ascertained from the information we have. Not actually wanting it in the moment? - sure. Happy to actually lose it again after it being missing for 31 years and for Rey to have it? - can’t be determined from what’s in the movie and he never gives her explicit verbal or indicative leave to take it.

DominicCobb said:
Naturally she picks it back up. But she doesn’t take it for herself, unlike Luke in ESB we never see the saber holstered on her belt. She puts the saber back in the bag where she had stored it en route to deliver to Luke. Later, while practicing with her staff, she thinks “fuck it” and takes the saber for a spin (though ends up semi-embarrassed with the results). After communing with Ben and entering the dark side hole, Luke tells her explicitly to “leave this island.” She believes Ben is her next best hope, but still once again offers Luke the saber. And, once again, Luke refuses.

Yep, all correct up till here though having only seen the movie once I had forgotten the second time she offers it to him, thanks for the reminder (I did a sanity check via a youtube clip as well 😉 ). It still doesn’t change the fact that she had no actual right to take it. Was she justified in taking it? That’s debatable and doesn’t change the fact even if justified for whatever reason that she’s still taken it without Luke’s actual approval.

DominicCobb said:
Naturally, she then takes the saber with her to the Supremacy.

Yep but the issue here is the word “naturally”.

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OutboundFlight said:

Holds no ill will

The First Order has attempted to directly kill Rey and friends multiple times. They also just destroyed a solar system. Sure he’s acting friendly but that doesn’t excuse his actions. Kylo Ren is clearly unstable… so the last thing you want to do is give him a weapon.

While Obi-Wan and Rey may have different reasons for withholding their weapons both a perfectly valid. In fact Rey is more valid, as Anakin doesn’t care about his saber.

If this is in response to my post where I say “holds no ill will”, I’m talking about Luke in respect to Rey. Either way, I don’t really understand much of your post sorry, especially if in response to myself. If you wanted to quote me and respond to specific parts I think I’d have an easier time discerning what you’re trying to say.

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What I’m getting is, Rey needs to be jailed in IX for theft. Let’s Make Star Wars Pointlessly Pedantic About Possesions and Inheritance! That’s what the series has always needed. Can’t wait for the climactic court case where Kylo Ren claims ownership of the Falcon.

(also aren’t Jedi not supposed to have possessions anyway?)

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Valheru_84 said:

SilverWook said:

I kind of doubt Luke is feeling too sentimental about the saber he was holding when his hand was lopped off on what was possibly the worst day of his life. 😉

I think that’s far too simplistic a view. Regardless of what happened on the day he lost it, it was his father’s lightsaber (who did save him, his friends and the galaxy at large from the Emperor in the end), it was also given to him by Obi-wan who is now gone and Luke would have many memories of his own with it between receiving it as a “certain point of view” hand-me-down birthright, training with and using it across 3+ years up till the point it was cut from his grasp (or his grasp was cut off? 😛 ).

Sure the day he lost it was pretty traumatic but that doesn’t automatically delete any sentimental or other value Luke may put in the saber and just because he throws away and later turns down the saber again doesn’t mean he wouldn’t go back at a later time or day to pick it back up. If he really wanted to get rid of it / not see it again for all time he could have just as easily force thrown it out into the ocean when Rey first gives it to him. He mightn’t have cared for it in the moment but that still doesn’t give Rey leave to just take it.

I know in my own reality that someone turning away something I offer that is rightfully theirs doesn’t give me leave to keep it without actual consent and that same moral compass extends to our perception of character actions and motives in Star Wars, no matter how far away it’s galaxy is. The fact Luke tossed it instead of handing it back to Rey could have also meant that he didn’t want anyone to have it, another reason again that without some form of verbal consent or unmistakable sign, it wasn’t Rey’s place to just take it. That fact she did because of whatever reason doesn’t undo the wrong doing of the act itself and so this needs to be taken into consideration when looking at her character along with how she hit him in the back and threatened him with the very same saber.

I’m not saying the movie wasn’t allowed to do this but it is why one (such as myself) might see it as a reason among many others not to like Rey’s character 😉

Did Luke ever go back to Cloud City and look for it after ROTJ? And if we factor in the prequels, that saber has a lot of innocent blood on it. Something Luke may have learned about later since he seems to know Darth Sidious’ history.
For that matter, how long was Maz sitting on the thing? Before Luke went missing? If there’s anybody you should be peeved at, it’s her. 😉

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Valheru_84 said:

You’re right regarding the saber (but I don’t understand your Lucas comment)

Lucas messed up, minimizing the importance of the saber by not making it his only one.

I’m not getting nit picky though, if you want to compare the two then these things need to be recognised so you can determine which elements in each case are apples and which are oranges and then see which of them line up. Also regardless of who currently possesses it, it will always be Anakin’s lightsaber as he made and used it in its initial life. When someone legitimately claims it as theirs down the track, yes you would call it their lightsaber (ie. “Luke’s lightsabre”) but when being respectful of it’s history you would still call it “Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber” or some descriptor as to their relation to yourself like “my dad’s lightsaber”.

Just because Disney markets the toy and replica sabers as “Rey’s Lightsaber” doesn’t mean when actually describing its history that you wouldn’t say “It’s actually Anakin Skylwalker’s second/third lightsaber which was inherited and used by his son Luke Skywalker, found by Maz Canata who gave it to Rey to return to Luke but kept it for herself without consent when Luke declined to accept it from her.”

To my point though, if you’re going to get nitpicky about the history, Luke didn’t inherit it. Obi-Wan stole it and gave it to him without Anakin’s permission. So it’s as legitimately Rey’s as it is Luke’s by your excessively literal-minded logic.

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Yeah, honestly, I think you’re overanalyzing the lightsaber thing a little. Rey stole it?

Luke rejected it. Luke didn’t want it, and he obviously didn’t care that Rey had it or he would have said something. Rey even offered it back to Luke again before she left.

Honestly, I think the whole movie Rey doesn’t even think it is hers. She doesn’t think she is the hero, she is merely the custodian of this Excalibur until she finds the real hero. At first she thinks it is Luke, he rejects it twice (for a multitude of reasons). Rey even thinks Ben might be the hero later in the film, and I think she brings the lightsaber with her in hopes that he will be the one to take up the mantle. She even tosses the lightsaber to him during the battle. It isn’t until she realizes that Ben hasn’t turned back to the light does she start to accept that maybe she might need to be the hero. And clearly when Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi, referring to Rey, I think that is him being cool with Rey having the lightsaber anyway.

And sure, if you go by bloodline, Ben might have some claim to it, but I think the movie has demonstrated that bloodline isn’t the end all be all. Rey catches the lightsaber at the end of TFA because she is “pure of heart” with “noble intent”, which is what the Force really cares about. Ben doesn’t have that.

This is my own personal opinion, but I think the only reason Rey is on this journey is because she demonstrated that she is empathetic person that wants to help others, which she shows us early on in the film when she helps BB-8. I think that made her worthy in the Force’s eyes.

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RogueLeader said:

Yeah, honestly, I think you’re overanalyzing the lightsaber thing a little. Rey stole it?

Luke rejected it. Luke didn’t want it, and he obviously didn’t care that Rey had it or he would have said something. Rey even offered it back to Luke again before she left.

Honestly, I think the whole movie Rey doesn’t even think it is hers. She doesn’t think she is the hero, she is merely the custodian of this Excalibur until she finds the real hero. At first she thinks it is Luke, he rejects it twice (for a multitude of reasons). Rey even thinks Ben might be the hero later in the film, and I think she brings the lightsaber with her in hopes that he will be the one to take up the mantle. She even tosses the lightsaber to him during the battle. It isn’t until she realizes that Ben hasn’t turned back to the light does she start to accept that maybe she might need to be the hero. And clearly when Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi, referring to Rey, I think that is him being cool with Rey having the lightsaber anyway.

And sure, if you go by bloodline, Ben might have some claim to it, but I think the movie has demonstrated that bloodline isn’t the end all be all. Rey catches the lightsaber at the end of TFA because she is “pure of heart” with “noble intent”, which is what the Force really cares about. Ben doesn’t have that.

This is my own personal opinion, but I think the only reason Rey is on this journey is because she demonstrated that she is empathetic person that wants to help others, which she shows us early on in the film when she helps BB-8. I think that made her worthy in the Force’s eyes.

Thanks for explaining what I don’t have the patience to.

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DominicCobb said:

What I’m getting is, Rey needs to be jailed in IX for theft. Let’s Make Star Wars Pointlessly Pedantic About Possesions and Inheritance! That’s what the series has always needed. Can’t wait for the climactic court case where Kylo Ren claims ownership of the Falcon.

(also aren’t Jedi not supposed to have possessions anyway?)

Hyperbolic much?

SilverWook said:
Did Luke ever go back to Cloud City and look for it after ROTJ? And if we factor in the prequels, that saber has a lot of innocent blood on it. Something Luke may have learned about later since he seems to know Darth Sidious’ history.
For that matter, how long was Maz sitting on the thing? Before Luke went missing? If there’s anybody you should be peeved at, it’s her. 😉

I’m sure Luke simply assumed it lost for all time to the depths of Bespin’s gas clouds since anything that falls into the Cloud City inner shaft seems to get collected and dumped straight into the atmosphere.

I’m not peeved at anyone, it was just a minor thing I noted about the situation. That Rey technically never asked or was given leave to just take it so as I said, she unwittingly stole it. I mean, that is the term for when you take something that doesn’t belong to you without the owner’s consent.

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re right regarding the saber (but I don’t understand your Lucas comment)

Lucas messed up, minimizing the importance of the saber by not making it his only one.

Ah ok. I wouldn’t say minimizing but definitely reducing the total significance it could hold. It’s a non-issue for me though in my view of the matter and how it pertains to this discussion.

DominicCobb said:

I’m not getting nit picky though, if you want to compare the two then these things need to be recognised so you can determine which elements in each case are apples and which are oranges and then see which of them line up. Also regardless of who currently possesses it, it will always be Anakin’s lightsaber as he made and used it in its initial life. When someone legitimately claims it as theirs down the track, yes you would call it their lightsaber (ie. “Luke’s lightsabre”) but when being respectful of it’s history you would still call it “Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber” or some descriptor as to their relation to yourself like “my dad’s lightsaber”.

Just because Disney markets the toy and replica sabers as “Rey’s Lightsaber” doesn’t mean when actually describing its history that you wouldn’t say “It’s actually Anakin Skylwalker’s second/third lightsaber which was inherited and used by his son Luke Skywalker, found by Maz Canata who gave it to Rey to return to Luke but kept it for herself without consent when Luke declined to accept it from her.”

To my point though, if you’re going to get nitpicky about the history, Luke didn’t inherit it. Obi-Wan stole it and gave it to him without Anakin’s permission. So it’s as legitimately Rey’s as it is Luke’s by your excessively literal-minded logic.

For the duration of ANH he inherited it as far as the audience is aware anyway which is where my “certain point of view” hand-me-down inheritance comment to Wook came from. Once we learn the truth in TESB we still don’t know the proper circumstances under how it made it’s way from Anakin to Luke and isn’t until ROTS that we see how events play out. You could technically say Obi-wan stole it, much like it and the Falcon are technically Ben Solo’s but there is no moral ambiguity around these circumstances when you take everything into consideration which is why it makes sense for Ben not to get those inheritances and for Obi-wan to take Anakin’s saber. The same cannot be said for Rey taking Anakin’s saber from Luke, the rightful owner now that Anakin is actually dead. There is no actual legitimacy around Rey now having it, only psuedo-justification.

It is not my intent to be overly literal and logical about it all (it’s just how my thought process works), my initial feeling that Rey didn’t have the right to just take the saber from Luke was just that - a feeling, which contributed to my dislike for the character. It is only in discussing and trying to explain it that I am looking deeper myself and laying out my detailed perspective on why I happen to see it this way, often in response to simplistic replies that seem to brush it aside as nothing of consequence despite it having an impact on the judgement of Rey’s moral fibre (which is why I also tie the matter into her physical abuse of Luke and threatening him with the saber which at this point is not even her’s to use).

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RogueLeader said:

Yeah, honestly, I think you’re overanalyzing the lightsaber thing a little. Rey stole it?

Luke rejected it. Luke didn’t want it, and he obviously didn’t care that Rey had it or he would have said something. Rey even offered it back to Luke again before she left.

Honestly, I think the whole movie Rey doesn’t even think it is hers. She doesn’t think she is the hero, she is merely the custodian of this Excalibur until she finds the real hero. At first she thinks it is Luke, he rejects it twice (for a multitude of reasons). Rey even thinks Ben might be the hero later in the film, and I think she brings the lightsaber with her in hopes that he will be the one to take up the mantle. She even tosses the lightsaber to him during the battle. It isn’t until she realizes that Ben hasn’t turned back to the light does she start to accept that maybe she might need to be the hero. And clearly when Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi, referring to Rey, I think that is him being cool with Rey having the lightsaber anyway.

And sure, if you go by bloodline, Ben might have some claim to it, but I think the movie has demonstrated that bloodline isn’t the end all be all. Rey catches the lightsaber at the end of TFA because she is “pure of heart” with “noble intent”, which is what the Force really cares about. Ben doesn’t have that.

This is my own personal opinion, but I think the only reason Rey is on this journey is because she demonstrated that she is empathetic person that wants to help others, which she shows us early on in the film when she helps BB-8. I think that made her worthy in the Force’s eyes.

I’m only analysing it myself to provide insight into my comment that she unwittingly stole it. When I use the word “stole”, it is for efficient simplification of the idea that she doesn’t have it by consent. I’m not saying for a second that she consciously stole it from Luke, she probably doesn’t have a high regard for possessions and sentimental value due to her own background and so probably doesn’t feel or sense any wrong doing by taking it without actually checking with Luke first. It doesn’t change the fact though that he never gave her leave to take it, which equates to it being “stolen” or borrowed permanently without consent if you will.

Your 2nd and last paragraph is an interesting take on the matter, though I’m not one who subscribes to the force being sentient or self-aware to any extent and the whole “light rises to meet the growing dark” is a misinterpretation of the bringing the force into balance theme and a “quick fix” on Rian’s part to explain Rey’s insanely quick command of the force and try to satiate the fan criticism around it.

In regards to bloodlines, I’m simply using these in regards to Ben as a technical comparison on someone who does have a birthright to these things and not that it’s the be all, end all. Also I took Rey’s force pulling and catching the lightsaber in TFA as taking Kylo by surprise, especially with it already traveling in that direction it would only take a quick last second use of the force to alter it’s course to miss Kylo and go to Rey instead. It has nothing to do with the Force choosing Rey over Kylo as to who should have the saber, in my eyes THAT is plain silly and twists my concept of the force into something unrecognisable from what I grew up with from the OT.

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The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level. So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

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DominicCobb said:
The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level.

Could you please provide some examples from the OT so I might better understand your perspective. I don’t think I can recall any instances where the force itself has an impact on the characters or story, it’s alway how the characters themselves harness and use it. When you take away the human / sentient being using the force element, the dark side is not actually a literal half of the force that is evil nor is the light side “good”. It is simply “the force”, as Obi-wan explains it:

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

It gives a Jedi his power, it doesn’t define or directly affect them. Flip that for a Sith - it gives them their power and has nothing to do with being evil in itself. The “Dark Side” is a concept created by force users to define and describe in a name, the seductive nature of power in itself and how it can corrupt yourself. This is what makes a Sith - a force user who has given into selfish desires to use the power for themselves instead of defence only and that of helpless innocents. They corrupt the use of the force but the actual force itself is still without moral definition or intent. To put it simply, it’s a tool and it’s how the user uses it that defines whether it’s use is for good or evil.

DominicCobb said:
So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

So what you’re saying, from my perspective, would be akin to saying that sunlight can determine between two people who the saber and what it represents belongs to. That part of the sunlight’s power is evil because some people harness it with magnifying glasses to kill ants and that the other “side” of this energy is good because other people use it to provide power and grow food for people to live on.

From just the movie perspective, what it is attributing to Rey should be shown through other means, not through some divine influence of events by the force which clouds and twists people’s understanding of it and it’s purpose in the Star Wars univers.

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I mean, I don’t want the films to ever definitively define the Force, but the films do seem to suggest that the Force either does have a will of its own, or the Force is merely an aspect of that galaxy’s nature that can react to certain external forces that gives the semblance of conscious action, if that makes sense.

I personally think it can and should be ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way, though. Think of it the way ancient civilizations deified forces of nature because they believed its unpredictability meant it must be sentient, and powerful. So either the Force is or isn’t conscious, but regardless, I think you can’t argue with the fact that the Force at least appears to be dynamic, to react to outside stimuli.

Let’s look at the prequels. Qui-Gon refers to “the will of the Force” on at least one occasion. He also believes that the Force, through the midichlorians, created Anakin in order to bring balance. So, the Force apparently reacted to the growing power of the Sith and the dark side, and created a conduit in which it can restore balance. The term “Chosen One” itself implies someone was chosen by something or someone with intent. I would also like to add that Qui-Gon should have some credibility since he was the first Jedi to be able to retain his consciousness after death.

We also hear how the Jedi’s ability to use the Force during the prequels has diminished. Regardless of what causes this, the growing power of the Sith/dark side, the Jedi’s own hubris, this clearly demonstrates that Force “power levels” are not constant, and that even the most powerful Jedi’s ability to use the Force is not a constant, static thing.

And throughout both the prequels, the OT and the sequels we hear talk of destiny. In other words, fate, which implies that someone’s future, or a certain course of events, is predetermined. Predetermined by who? Destiny seems to be a real thing in the Star Wars universe, even if characters interpret it in their own ways. This shows that even in the OT, the idea that Force could determine one’s future existed. And again, this does not mean the Force has to necessarily be conscious, but rather another function of a potentially complex system.

Yoda even refers to it as his ally, which at least implies the idea that Yoda sees the Force as more than just a tool like the Sith do. Even visions, like the dark side cave on Dagobah, implies the idea that the Force is trying to show Luke something. I still believe you can interpret this as a conscious Force or the Force merely reflecting an individual’s internal thoughts and emotions. Both Obi-Wan and the Emperor refer to disturbances in the Force, meaning that outside stimuli can in fact make the Force react to it. Like throwing a rock in a water and creating waves.

Also this particular interaction,
Obi-Wan: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

This also does seem to imply that the Force can act on its own, guiding a persons actions when that person lets go of their own control and allows the Force to guide them. The person concentrates on what they want to achieve, and the Force helps them accomplish that action. This also could be interpreted as a stimuli-response interaction.

So, the Sequel Trilogy. The name of Episode VII is literally titled THE FORCE AWAKENS. This is further evidence that at the very least the Force is a dynamic system that can ebb and flow. Snoke even refers to sensing it in the film itself.

Let’s get to Rey. Interestingly, Rey doesn’t demonstrate any strong connection to the Force until she is called to the lightsaber. Rey is clearly Force-sensitive, at the very least. She apparently has had dreams of Luke’s island in the past, but no overt uses of the Force. But when she touches the saber, it is like something clicks inside her. Like some repressed connection has awakened. And after that, we see her use the Force more overtly in a few different ways.

And in the Last Jedi, Snoke mentions the idea of the light rising to meet the growing darkness. Luke even implies the idea that he wants the Jedi to end so the light can come from a new, purer source.

Yes, these pieces of evidence can clearly point to the idea of a conscious Force. Rey fit the bill of the kind of person the Force felt worthy to be its hero, so it calls to her both on Takodana and on Ach-To, trying to take her down the necessary path. While Snoke takes credit for bridging Rey and Kylo’s minds, there seems to be a suggestion that a connection already existed between them, possibly originating from the Force (“Why is the Force connecting us?”), especially that it still exists even after Snoke’s death.

But, this also can be interpreted as aspects of just a very complex system of nature. It has been clearly demonstrated the power of the Force and the dark side clearly can wax and wane.

One interpretation could be that all Force-users act as conduits for the Force, and the more people there are that channel the light or dark sides of the Force, the stronger/weaker the abilities will manifest. The Jedi at their highest numbers had a diminished ability with the Force, while the Sith, under the rule of two, were at their most powerful. In the OT, the two Sith rule the galaxy, the two Jedi are in hiding, and Luke comes into the picture and becomes a Jedi in a fraction of the time the Jedi of the Old Republic did. Then we have the ST, where it has been 30 years since ROTJ, and Force-users on both sides demonstrate incredible power: Kylo freezing blaster bolts, Snoke connecting minds (supposedly), throwing Rey around with ease and reading her mind with minimal effort, and Luke projecting himself across the fucking galaxy.

And with the Force as a dynamic, complex system, you could also argue that the light/Force is drawn to positive emotions and mindset like a magnet, which could explain the Force’s draw to Rey, and the dark side is drawn to negative emotions and motivations.

This is just another interpretation, but this is just meant to prove that the idea of the Force being dynamic, a thing that lies dormant or grows in strength, doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be a conscious entity. The Force having a will of its own seems to be a clear answer, but those two things are not exclusive, and I personally believe they should never outright explain it as such.

And also, I get that the idea of a dynamic Force might not be your cup of tea, but just because that isn’t how you have perceived the Force in the past doesn’t mean that that isn’t the way it actually does in fact work. I personally think this evidence shows the Force is a dynamic system. I’m just suggesting open-mindedness, and you can find an interpretation of the Force can satisfy you, but also reflect what we are shown in all 8, soon to be 9, films. You don’t have to believe the Force is conscious, but you can still believe it is a system that acts and reacts to external stimuli (i.e. the Jedi and the Sith) that at least makes it behave as if it has a will of its own.

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Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

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Also I don’t think anywhere in the films is it explicit that the force has a will of its own. Some characters might say it does, but that’s their opinion. The films purposely leave it open to interpretation, so if it bothers you it’s easy to imagine it isn’t the case (or perhaps if you want something to complain about, you can imagine it is).

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Even with this some people think he might be lying, because Pedro Pascal’s people also made it seem like he wasn’t involved with The Mandalorian, even though he was. Why would Matt Smith need to keep his involvement a secret? I don’t know.

It’s just weird considering how long we’ve just assumed he was in it even though he wasn’t on the official cast list.

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 (Edited)

RogueLeader said:

I mean, I don’t want the films to ever definitively define the Force, but the films do seem to suggest that the Force either does have a will of its own, or the Force is merely an aspect of that galaxy’s nature that can react to certain external forces that gives the semblance of conscious action, if that makes sense.

Yeah this aspect of the lore is interesting to me. That’s why I wish they would’ve done George’s original sequel trilogy idea, because they would’ve delved more into this. The Force is an energy field of life, and the midi-chlorians in our blood help us communicate with it (or something like that), and the Whills feed off of the Force and can control it. So they sound like a parasite. I’ve always been fascinated with the Whills since I’ve seen them mentioned in the very first Star Wars draft. Who/what are they? Are they good/evil? We’ll never know now it seems 😕

I guess you could call me a hipster; I think the prequels are better than the originals, and I think the Beach Boys are better than the Beatles.

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Awhile back there was a rumor that there is some kind of MacGuffin the characters will be after, and I speculated that it could be the Journal of the Whills, and maybe we would learn something about them or the Force indirectly through that. It would be a nice way to tie that original idea into the last Saga film, while not being too out there for general audiences.

Since this is the last film of the Saga, they probably will touch on the Force a little more in some way, or illustrate what Balance is exactly.

It would be cool to learn more about the Whills and such, but I can understand their hesitation to approach that subject, because audiences, and especially fans, were really critical of the midichlorians as a concept back in the day (and it still is something a lot of people choose to forget). I don’t think people want the Force overly demystified, and honestly neither do I. I think how the Force works should be left up to interpretation to a certain extent, and the more you explain it the less flexible it becomes.

I compare it to Taoism a lot. The first chapter of the Tao Te Ching basically says, “The Tao that can be named is not truly the Tao.” Basically, trying to understand or quantify the Way universe works is essentially a fruitless effort, and you really have to surrender yourself to it in order to be in-step with the Universe, if that makes sense. It’s like faith, and that comes back around to how George originally meant for the Force to be a meta-religion that can stand in for any religious faith or belief system.

It would be cool for them to explore the Whills more in some other form of media, but maybe it was the right call to not overexplain it in the Saga films. For me, I would just like for them to possibly address this apparent cycle of Darkness and light that exists in the universe, and how Force ghost Luke, Rey and potentially Ben Solo will play a part in dealing with it. Which I think is subtle enough for audiences to understand and apply it to real-world issues in their own lives.

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RogueLeader said:

Awhile back there was a rumor that there is some kind of MacGuffin the characters will be after, and I speculated that it could be the Journal of the Whills, and maybe we would learn something about them or the Force indirectly through that. It would be a nice way to tie that original idea into the last Saga film, while not being too out there for general audiences.

I like this idea! Introducing the Whills would open up the world more.

RogueLeader said:

It would be cool to learn more about the Whills and such, but I can understand their hesitation to approach that subject, because audiences, and especially fans, were really critical of the midichlorians as a concept back in the day (and it still is something a lot of people choose to forget). I don’t think people want the Force overly demystified, and honestly neither do I. I think how the Force works should be left up to interpretation to a certain extent, and the more you explain it the less flexible it becomes.

I hear ya man, and that’s why I kinda hate Disney. They’re not choosing the brave storytelling route. Whether or not the fans like Midi-Chlorians, they’re real and a part of the Saga. They were there since the first draft too, and I personally never had a problem with them. Keeping the Force mysterious limits the story. If it’s always mysterious (which it’s not anymore) we can never learn and grow. So there’s no story to tell really. And why wouldn’t we want to figure it out? The Force is like the coolest thing ever! Why wouldn’t we want to study it and figure out how it works, and where it comes from? The answers to those questions can open up a whole new world to us, a world beyond the galaxy far, far away.

RogueLeader said:

I compare it to Taoism a lot. The first chapter of the Tao Te Ching basically says, “The Tao that can be named is not truly the Tao.” Basically, trying to understand or quantify the Way universe works is essentially a fruitless effort, and you really have to surrender yourself to it in order to be in-step with the Universe, if that makes sense. It’s like faith, and that comes back around to how George originally meant for the Force to be a meta-religion that can stand in for any religious faith or belief system.

That’s the greatest quote I’ve read all week. Thanks for that!

But what I think George was going for was making the Force a by-product of the Midi-Chlorians which are controlled by the Whills. The lifeforms in the galaxy see it as religious power of course tho because it’s beyond their understanding.

RogueLeader said:

It would be cool for them to explore the Whills more in some other form of media, but maybe it was the right call to not overexplain it in the Saga films. For me, I would just like for them to possibly address this apparent cycle of Darkness and light that exists in the universe, and how Force ghost Luke, Rey and potentially Ben Solo will play a part in dealing with it. Which I think is subtle enough for audiences to understand and apply it to real-world issues in their own lives.

I don’t think it was the right call. I’m the kind of person who likes to break new ground with every step. I just wish Star Wars would be intelligent again is all. It’s too mainstream for that now, we have to reject the creator’s stories so we can stay commercial. sigh

I think George’s idea was that reason why we have cycles of dark and light is because of the Whills; they’re feeding off of us through the force and they’re causing these conflicts so they can stay alive, using us like puppets. But that’s too intelligent.

I guess you could call me a hipster; I think the prequels are better than the originals, and I think the Beach Boys are better than the Beatles.