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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 62

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I do agree with you, and especially this sentence is spot-on.

Lesser said:

Balance is recognizing the dark side within all things, and accepting it’s existence, in order to fulfill self satisfaction, because there is no way anything can be ultimately good in nature.

To let me play devil’s advocate for a second, both The Clone Wars and The Last Jedi have used Yin Yang symbolism to illustrate the light and the dark as two sides of the Force. Luke seems to go at length to show Rey the aspects of light and dark throughout life and our reality.

Maybe they are wanting to demonstrate the dark side as a part of the Force to not demonize those negative aspects in ourselves. Yes, we all have bad, dark side flaws, but maybe seeing those flaws as evil is not the answer. Instead we have to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of those emotions.

The dark side is still corrupting by nature. If you give into your fear and anger it can lead you down a cycle of hate and suffering. The dark side is dangerous, but it is a part of who we are. We can’t deny it, we can only recognize it in order to overcome it.

So the dark side isn’t some evil we can just stamp out from the galaxy, it is an aspect of us that can lead us down a corrupting path if we give into it. So, the dark side of the Force can be thought of as a chaotic neutral aspect of nature, and when it makes contact with our own inner dark side, it can be volatile. So the dark side might not be evil by design, but people can use it to do bad things.

So yeah, maybe they’re going this route so kids don’t see their dark side as “evil”, just a part of themselves they have accept and understand in order to become a mature person.

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Mocata said:

The films doesn’t need anything to do with Anakin or Vader

Tell that to JJ, he’s the one who put references all over the place to Vader in TFA.

“I have to say that I felt George’s group of six films had more innovative visual imagination, and this film was more of a retrenchment to things you had seen before and characters you had seen before, and it took a few baby steps forward with new characters.” - James Cameron about Episode VII.

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That’s window dressing. I’m talking actual movie. I’m talking about George’s imaginary “it was the fall of Vader all along” plot, which is up there with “I created this all myself and it was always one vision”.

Yub Nub for life

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I do agree in the context of OT, the “tragedy of Vader” plotline was an excuse. However, it did define a clear beginning, middle, and end for the saga. It is a bit strange that Vader plays a small role in Ep 4 but I think they pull it off especially considering how Ep 6 ends.

My issue with the current “Skywalker Saga” is that the original six aren’t about the Skywalkers. The OT is clearly about Luke, the PT clearly about Anakin… but what about Shimi Skywalker? If this was the Skywalker Saga, shouldn’t her origins be at least explained? And Leia has been tremendously underutilized by both the later OT and ST.

Without a proper connection to the PT, Ep 9 is going to fall flat as an end to nine films. I think it could easily conclude the story of the ST, but will it really end the Skywalker Saga? Killing off Kylo doesn’t count, they need to actually conclude the plot threads that began in Episode One. And those are…

I can’t think of any plot threads for the ST to conclude. If anyone has any please do share.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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OutboundFlight said:
My issue with the current “Skywalker Saga” is that the original six aren’t about the Skywalkers. The OT is clearly about Luke, the PT clearly about Anakin… but what about Shimi Skywalker? If this was the Skywalker Saga, shouldn’t her origins be at least explained? And Leia has been tremendously underutilized by both the later OT and ST.

I don’t like it being renamed as the “Skywalker Saga” myself, instead preferring just the “Star Wars Saga” though if Disney do make another saga down the track the Skywalker Saga name will be needed to differentiate them and is probably an indicator of Disney’s future plans anyway, especially if any of the planned new trilogies end up extending past 3 movies.

The Skywalkers are the common thread throughout the saga so it is fitting even though I don’t like the saga being renamed. You said it yourself, the PT is about Anakin Skywalker, the OT is about Luke Skywalker and his father, the ST is kinda about a Skywalker descendant and his mother and uncle who are both Skywalkers and we still don’t have confirmation on Rey’s lineage. So I don’t understand how you can say “the original six aren’t about the Skylwalkers” when that’s exactly what it boils down to and George himself says Star Wars is essentially a soap opera about family problems. Just because two other Skywalker relations aren’t front and centre as the leading focus of the story doesn’t mean it breaks the common family theme throughout the saga.

I actually really don’t understand your post at all as you effectively contradict yourself in the very next sentence o.O

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Agreed. I think Kylo Ren, aka Ben Solo, is just as central to the story as Rey is, or how Luke or Anakin were in their own trilogies. Even if his last name is Solo, he is the grandson of Anakin Skywalker. And like you said, Leia is just as much of a Skywalker as Luke is, and she will still be around in Episode IX (so will Luke apparently).

I understand why you don’t like how it is officially being called the Skywalker Saga, but honestly it is the perfect name for it. Lucasfilm has to consider the continued longevity of the Star Wars brand, so the saga they are about to wrap up can’t just be called “The Star Wars Saga”. We may get new movie series that will be even bigger than the Sequel Trilogy has been. Who knows? Really, all current and future movies will be a part of this never ending tapestry of the Star Wars Saga. Episodes 1-9, though, deal specifically with the Skywalker family, so calling it that is fairly reasonable. The Star Wars brand name has to remain pretty open, because eventually it will be tied to other stories and characters beyond the Skywalkers, if they hope for the franchise to endure.

Ironically, I think one of the first drafts uses the term “Saga 1” or “The First Saga”. I think these three trilogies will forever be the “First Star Wars Saga”, but as a Star Wars fan, I hope the franchise can grow beyond that and explore new and interesting corners of the galaxy with brand new characters we can fall in love with.

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Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

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DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

I would use the word “usurper” rather than “heir”.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force who just seems to automatically collect OT character’s iconic belongings as she goes along. It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

Rey may be the legacy torch bearer Disney needs but not the one we fans deserve.

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Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force…

Yep, that’s literally the point of her and Kylo’s characters. You’re so close, think about it a bit more and maybe you’ll understand the filmmakers’ intention and what I meant by “heir.”

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

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DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force…

Yep, that’s literally the point of her and Kylo’s characters. You’re so close, think about it a bit more and maybe you’ll understand the filmmakers’ intention and what I meant by “heir.”

Among possible responses, this was probably the most Waltersobchakeit.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
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While I do see their message about Rey being a nobody (especially following the PT which foolishly made Anakin the “chosen one”), I for one never got the impression that Luke was somehow privileged. He just wanted to be like his father.

Ben I could see being privileged, but I’d like to see them play it up more. Maybe even in an Excalibur like sequence where he tries to unlock an ancient heirloom of the skywalkers but fails- while Rey is deemed worthy of it not for her lineage but for morals.

Maybe it is just my expectations subverted, but I would prefer to see Ben properly end the saga. His death would mark a true conclusion, rather than it being “the Skywalkers are all gone but Rey has founded the New New Jedi and all will be well for 30 years”. Most that comes down to how they present the ending.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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If at the end of the saga Rey were to mostly lose her Force abilities, it would really serve to establish how the Force is returning to a state of balance and a counterpoint to the inherited greatness of the Skywalker’s abilities.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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OutboundFlight said:

Maybe it is just my expectations subverted, but I would prefer to see Ben properly end the saga. His death would mark a true conclusion, rather than it being “the Skywalkers are all gone but Rey has founded the New New Jedi and all will be well for 30 years”. Most that comes down to how they present the ending.

I really hope Ben doesn’t die. It would be a waste of his character moving forward.

Noah Lawson

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OutboundFlight said:

While I do see their message about Rey being a nobody (especially following the PT which foolishly made Anakin the “chosen one”), I for one never got the impression that Luke was somehow privileged. He just wanted to be like his father.

Don’t disagree.

Ben I could see being privileged, but I’d like to see them play it up more. Maybe even in an Excalibur like sequence where he tries to unlock an ancient heirloom of the skywalkers but fails- while Rey is deemed worthy of it not for her lineage but for morals.

In a way, depending on how you look at it, they already did a subtle version of this in TFA when Rey grabs the saber. But I get the desire for something explicit.

Maybe it is just my expectations subverted, but I would prefer to see Ben properly end the saga. His death would mark a true conclusion, rather than it being “the Skywalkers are all gone but Rey has founded the New New Jedi and all will be well for 30 years”. Most that comes down to how they present the ending.

I think there’s a lot of ways that they could make it work. I don’t think Ben has to die. I personally don’t want them to tie off the saga with a nice bow.

In my mind the ST is basically about how perfectly tied up happy endings are improbable. Would be pretty annoying to see them walk that back. (but again, there are a lot of ways that could manifest)

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DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force…

Yep, that’s literally the point of her and Kylo’s characters. You’re so close, think about it a bit more and maybe you’ll understand the filmmakers’ intention and what I meant by “heir.”

Sorry, not getting your drift. Please expand upon what is evidently obvious to yourself.

DominicCobb said:

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

Technically yes, though Rian also could have just had Luke say something along the lines of “you keep it, it no longer holds any value to me” and hand it back to Rey instead of throwing it over his shoulder as some kind of forced joke.

In regards to comparing the Obi-wan vs Rey situations of obtaining the saber, the two are CLEARLY not the same and it’s pretty disingenuous to say so - one is keeping the saber of your now mortal enemy who is responsible for ending the Jedi order, murdering younglings in the process among other atrocities already committed by this stage. You’re not going to leave it within his force grip reach while he’s still alive. Also a Jedi’s weapon is not something to just be left laying around for anyone to find. He might even have some sentimental value in it himself if he helped his old student Anakin construct it.

The other is taking something of huge sentimental value from someone who’s birthright it is and you literally met a couple of days before and is obviously emotionally and mentally traumatised but holds no ill will towards you, instead only offering advice and wisdom (no matter how misplaced it might be) along with insight and help but you smack them in the back and threaten them with that very same object just because you are frustrated with them. You then proceed to keep it for yourself and leave the planet.

Yeah, pretty funny how they aren’t even remotely the same…

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I kind of doubt Luke is feeling too sentimental about the saber he was holding when his hand was lopped off on what was possibly the worst day of his life. 😉

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Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force…

Yep, that’s literally the point of her and Kylo’s characters. You’re so close, think about it a bit more and maybe you’ll understand the filmmakers’ intention and what I meant by “heir.”

Sorry, not getting your drift. Please expand upon what is evidently obvious to yourself.

So Ben is the presumed heir and birthright of the Skywalker legacy and their immense force power but this fucks with his head and he messes up, meanwhile Rey is a nobody who no one expects anything of but who manages to achieve that which was expected of Ben simply because of his lineage… maybe this was on purpose.

DominicCobb said:

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

In regards to comparing the Obi-wan vs Rey situations of obtaining the saber, the two are CLEARLY not the same and it’s pretty disingenuous to say so - one is keeping the saber of your now mortal enemy who is responsible for ending the Jedi order, murdering younglings in the process among other atrocities already committed by this stage. You’re not going to leave it within his force grip reach while he’s still alive. Also a Jedi’s weapon is not something to just be left laying around for anyone to find. He might even have some sentimental value in it himself if he helped his old student Anakin construct it.

Doubtful he helped him construct it as it wasn’t his first saber (silly Lucas). My point of comparison was a joke. It’s ridiculous to use the word stolen in either regard. But it is a term more accurate for Obi-wan, as the item was literally in Anakin’s possession as he took it. If you’re going to get nitpicky about something completely irrelevant like who the lightsaber actually belongs to, don’t forget Anakin never gave it away, so your point is on shaky ground.

The other is taking something of huge sentimental value from someone who’s birthright it is and you literally met a couple of days before and is obviously emotionally and mentally traumatised but holds no ill will towards you, instead only offering advice and wisdom (no matter how misplaced it might be) along with insight and help but you smack them in the back and threaten them with that very same object just because you are frustrated with them. You then proceed to keep it for yourself and leave the planet.

“Something of huge sentimental value” - clearly not, at least in that moment, as he throws it away. You’re missing the vital semiotic meaning of the saber. It’s a whole lot more than just an object that someone does or does not have ownership over.

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Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

The other is taking something of huge sentimental value from someone who’s birthright it is and you literally met a couple of days before and is obviously emotionally and mentally traumatised but holds no ill will towards you, instead only offering advice and wisdom (no matter how misplaced it might be) along with insight and help but you smack them in the back and threaten them with that very same object just because you are frustrated with them. You then proceed to keep it for yourself and leave the planet.

Man, I gotta circle back to this because your description of events is crazy. Let’s follow Rey’s path with the lightsaber, shall we? Maz gives it to her (who knows where she got it from), but she rejects it. Maz then gives it to Finn, who fumbles with it until he gets knocked out. Rey then grabs the saber in a pitched moment to face Kylo. From there, she searches for Luke and offers him back the saber. He takes it, but then throws it away, not actually wanting it. Naturally she picks it back up. But she doesn’t take it for herself, unlike Luke in ESB we never see the saber holstered on her belt. She puts the saber back in the bag where she had stored it en route to deliver to Luke. Later, while practicing with her staff, she thinks “fuck it” and takes the saber for a spin (though ends up semi-embarrassed with the results). After communing with Ben and entering the dark side hole, Luke tells her explicitly to “leave this island.” She believes Ben is her next best hope, but still once again offers Luke the saber. And, once again, Luke refuses. Naturally, she then takes the saber with her to the Supremacy.

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Holds no ill will

The First Order has attempted to directly kill Rey and friends multiple times. They also just destroyed a solar system. Sure he’s acting friendly but that doesn’t excuse his actions. Kylo Ren is clearly unstable… so the last thing you want to do is give him a weapon.

While Obi-Wan and Rey may have different reasons for withholding their weapons both a perfectly valid. In fact Rey is more valid, as Anakin doesn’t care about his saber.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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There isn’t a whole lot of excitement for Episode IX as of right now. I am aware of that The Last Jedi still left a bad taste in the mouths of many, but could another reason why may be because of the other films releasing in 2019. Once the title, first trailer, and other anticipated movies like Avengers: Endgame comes out, could the hype and anticipation increase for Star Wars?

Noah Lawson

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It’s simply not on the average moviegoer’s radar at the moment. There are so many more event movies these days. The teaser also hasn’t dropped yet.

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Yeah, excitement isn’t going to start building until the marketing starts, and Disney isn’t gonna start marketing it until after Endgame so as not to draw attention away from their other big finale blockbuster of the year.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

Yeah, excitement isn’t going to start building until the marketing starts, and Disney isn’t gonna start marketing it until after Endgame so as not to draw attention away from their other big finale blockbuster of the year.

They’ll put that trailer before Endgame for sure.

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DominicCobb said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Yeah, excitement isn’t going to start building until the marketing starts, and Disney isn’t gonna start marketing it until after Endgame so as not to draw attention away from their other big finale blockbuster of the year.

They’ll put that trailer before Endgame for sure.

Or at Star Wars: Celebration in Chicago.

Noah Lawson