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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 55

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I don’t know if I should put my trust in JJ, but especially after the ANH similarities being a major criticism of TFA, I like to think that JJ wants to have another go at the franchise in order to do something more original.

Regardless of what anybody thinks about why reused a lot of imagery from the OT and the purpose it served, it will be nice to get more new ideas into the franchise. I"m fairly optimistic about that regarding the future of the movies and shows.
If I just had to guess, I have a feeling that The Mandalorian will be the first big thing that will start bringing both sides of the divisive fan base back together.

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Shopping Maul said:

Great post Dre - sums up my feelings 100%.

Totally agree with this agreement.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

(It hasn’t happened yet)

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RogueLeader said:

I don’t know if I should put my trust in JJ, but especially after the ANH similarities being a major criticism of TFA, I like to think that JJ wants to have another go at the franchise in order to do something more original.

Regardless of what anybody thinks about why reused a lot of imagery from the OT and the purpose it served, it will be nice to get more new ideas into the franchise. I"m fairly optimistic about that regarding the future of the movies and shows.
If I just had to guess, I have a feeling that The Mandalorian will be the first big thing that will start bringing both sides of the divisive fan base back together.

I am scared that The Mandalorian could give Star Wars overload, even if it is a TV show.

Noah Lawson

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DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:
B) that a lot about what we got in Solo would have been the same even if they had indeed brought it to the finish line.

I don’t think that would have been the case as Ron Howard reportedly re-shot 70% of the movie and I imagine the 30% kept from L&M was probably edited quite differently that they would have envisioned.

There’s more to a film that just that. Understand that the entirety of preproduction was done by Lord/Miller. So just about the entire look of the film is L/M (cinematography, art direction, costumes, locations, much of the FX work and sequences). This also means they had a good deal of say in the development of the script (though if rumors are to be believed their improvisational straying from the script during filming was an issue). All that on top of the 30% L/M shot. So really the main thing that would have been different is the tone - of the some of the performances and editing (and staging). I personally believe this constitutes a significant difference but the truth is that a lot of people would have generally felt the same way about the film, either way.

I don’t doubt what you say about all the preproduction and so the movie would still have L&M’s “footprint” so to speak but with 70% reshot I would have to think it turned out quite differently than if L&M were allowed to complete it themselves.

I do agree though that regardless of what changed and what remains from L&M that many people would likely still feel the same way about the film.

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nl0428 said:

RogueLeader said:

I don’t know if I should put my trust in JJ, but especially after the ANH similarities being a major criticism of TFA, I like to think that JJ wants to have another go at the franchise in order to do something more original.

Regardless of what anybody thinks about why reused a lot of imagery from the OT and the purpose it served, it will be nice to get more new ideas into the franchise. I"m fairly optimistic about that regarding the future of the movies and shows.
If I just had to guess, I have a feeling that The Mandalorian will be the first big thing that will start bringing both sides of the divisive fan base back together.

I am scared that The Mandalorian could give Star Wars overload, even if it is a TV show.

Oh I don’t think so 😃

The Clone Wars Cinematic Universe

Maul- Part of the CW Cinematic Universe (but old)

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DrDre said:

I view the ST thusfar as a somewhat failed experiment, not unlike the PT. In my view the OT is a self-contained story with a clear beginning, middle and end, with clear character arcs. That story has gotten lost somewhat with the addition of the PT, and ST. Both the PT and ST are superfluous imo, and cannot stand on their own. They both add something to the overall narrative, and lore, but at a hefty price. To me the overall narrative of the six part “tragedy of Anakin Skywalker” is significantly weaker than the three part “adventures of Luke Skywalker”, and the thusfar eight part “Skywalker saga” is weaker still. However, in the case of the PT, aside from the poor execution of many elements, the faults were built in from the get go, where the story’s outcome was a foregone conclusion, and it’s self-referential nature part of it’s DNA. It was therefore self-evident that story choices in the PT, might clash with the previously established self-contained story of the OT. It might have been better to have the PT be set in a much earlier time, or an earlier conflict to provide more of a disconnect between the PT and OT timelines, thus ensuring the OT’s narrative is not significantly impacted by the addition of episodes 1 to 3.

With the ST however the creators were free to forge their own path, to create new settings, new aesthetics, and a new conflict to drive the story forward. In my view this did not happen. The ST and Disney’s additions to the franchise in general have been self-referential to a fault, whether it’s by copying the OT’s settings, aesthetic, and general plot, or whether it is by using the OT’s story threads, and set pieces to misdirect, and subvert expectations, the ST at its core thusfar has failed to provide us with a new setting, and new story. It’s the current generation’s updated and modernized OT, where history seems destined to repeat itself ad nauseum:

The big question for me will be, whether episode IX can break through this cycle? If not, I fear for the future of the franchise, where in a worst case scenario Disney Star Wars will forever be a cover band playing Lucas’ greatest hits, changing the order of the verses with some newly updated (and in some cases inappropriate) arrangements, rather than to take Lucas’ style of music, and create some genuinely new songs.

And yet…people who do not like the film say it isn’t like the OT in many ways. That it broke the promise of the SW universe, the feel of the original films.

I agree with your thoughts on certain aspects of the film being quite similar or even the same (more or less). I could say that about the Bond films or even the MU (villains, save the world etc.)

I would also like Disney to push the envelope and I think they have plans to do exactly that with spinoffs and Rian’s planned trilogy. He did say the characters would have nothing in common with the PT, OT or ST.

The three trilogies have to have familiarity imo so continuum is preserved. They also need to make a lot of money because they cost a lot of money. I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

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Creox said:

DrDre said:

I view the ST thusfar as a somewhat failed experiment, not unlike the PT. In my view the OT is a self-contained story with a clear beginning, middle and end, with clear character arcs. That story has gotten lost somewhat with the addition of the PT, and ST. Both the PT and ST are superfluous imo, and cannot stand on their own. They both add something to the overall narrative, and lore, but at a hefty price. To me the overall narrative of the six part “tragedy of Anakin Skywalker” is significantly weaker than the three part “adventures of Luke Skywalker”, and the thusfar eight part “Skywalker saga” is weaker still. However, in the case of the PT, aside from the poor execution of many elements, the faults were built in from the get go, where the story’s outcome was a foregone conclusion, and it’s self-referential nature part of it’s DNA. It was therefore self-evident that story choices in the PT, might clash with the previously established self-contained story of the OT. It might have been better to have the PT be set in a much earlier time, or an earlier conflict to provide more of a disconnect between the PT and OT timelines, thus ensuring the OT’s narrative is not significantly impacted by the addition of episodes 1 to 3.

With the ST however the creators were free to forge their own path, to create new settings, new aesthetics, and a new conflict to drive the story forward. In my view this did not happen. The ST and Disney’s additions to the franchise in general have been self-referential to a fault, whether it’s by copying the OT’s settings, aesthetic, and general plot, or whether it is by using the OT’s story threads, and set pieces to misdirect, and subvert expectations, the ST at its core thusfar has failed to provide us with a new setting, and new story. It’s the current generation’s updated and modernized OT, where history seems destined to repeat itself ad nauseum:

The big question for me will be, whether episode IX can break through this cycle? If not, I fear for the future of the franchise, where in a worst case scenario Disney Star Wars will forever be a cover band playing Lucas’ greatest hits, changing the order of the verses with some newly updated (and in some cases inappropriate) arrangements, rather than to take Lucas’ style of music, and create some genuinely new songs.

I would also like Disney to push the envelope and I think they have plans to do exactly that with spinoffs and Rian’s planned trilogy. He did say the characters would have nothing in common with the PT, OT or ST.

I hope Rian’s trilogy is set in the Old Republic.

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 (Edited)

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I view the ST thusfar as a somewhat failed experiment, not unlike the PT. In my view the OT is a self-contained story with a clear beginning, middle and end, with clear character arcs. That story has gotten lost somewhat with the addition of the PT, and ST. Both the PT and ST are superfluous imo, and cannot stand on their own. They both add something to the overall narrative, and lore, but at a hefty price. To me the overall narrative of the six part “tragedy of Anakin Skywalker” is significantly weaker than the three part “adventures of Luke Skywalker”, and the thusfar eight part “Skywalker saga” is weaker still. However, in the case of the PT, aside from the poor execution of many elements, the faults were built in from the get go, where the story’s outcome was a foregone conclusion, and it’s self-referential nature part of it’s DNA. It was therefore self-evident that story choices in the PT, might clash with the previously established self-contained story of the OT. It might have been better to have the PT be set in a much earlier time, or an earlier conflict to provide more of a disconnect between the PT and OT timelines, thus ensuring the OT’s narrative is not significantly impacted by the addition of episodes 1 to 3.

With the ST however the creators were free to forge their own path, to create new settings, new aesthetics, and a new conflict to drive the story forward. In my view this did not happen. The ST and Disney’s additions to the franchise in general have been self-referential to a fault, whether it’s by copying the OT’s settings, aesthetic, and general plot, or whether it is by using the OT’s story threads, and set pieces to misdirect, and subvert expectations, the ST at its core thusfar has failed to provide us with a new setting, and new story. It’s the current generation’s updated and modernized OT, where history seems destined to repeat itself ad nauseum:

The big question for me will be, whether episode IX can break through this cycle? If not, I fear for the future of the franchise, where in a worst case scenario Disney Star Wars will forever be a cover band playing Lucas’ greatest hits, changing the order of the verses with some newly updated (and in some cases inappropriate) arrangements, rather than to take Lucas’ style of music, and create some genuinely new songs.

And yet…people who do not like the film say it isn’t like the OT in many ways. That it broke the promise of the SW universe, the feel of the original films.

Well, I would argue if the OT can be represented by three different people, then the ST entries thusfar reminds me a little too much of this:

In other words several OT elements, settings, aesthetics, and story threads have been stitched together with some new elements to form a “new” whole. While Frankenstein shares a lot of similarities with the people that were used to create him, sadly the stitches are showing all too well. Analogously, while the ST shares a lot of similarities with the OT, inviting a continuous sense of déjà vu, the mish mash of OT elements does not provide an overall experience, that honours the legacy of the OT, or even Lucas’ six part saga to a great many people, and to them the stitches are showing all too well.

An example of the visible stitches in the ST is Rey’s sudden mastery of the Force, which appears inconsistent with what has been established before, and is only explained through the words of Snoke in TLJ:

“Darkness rises, and light to meet it. … I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise.”

The story element seems to have been mostly driven by plot convenience, rather some well thought out concept, that flows naturally from the story or the saga in general. Rey needed to be in that throne room on par with Kylo, despite the fact that Luke refused to train her, and so we get a couple of throw away lines to quickly fill a potential plot hole.

However, I have a number of issues with this approach. For one the movie makes it clear, that Snoke only becomes aware of Luke’s desire to die and letting the Jedi die with him by probing Rey’s mind, and so why does Snoke assume that Kylo’s equal in the light would rise while Jedi Master Luke Skywalker is still around? It appears that when Luke disconnected himself from the Force, the Force took matters into it’s own hands, and bestowed Rey with these powers to counter the growing imbalance. However, this rather important new concept is mostly ignored by the film. Luke himself doesn’t acknowledge it, and neither does Yoda for that matter. You would think that it would give Luke pause, that the Force displays its will by awakening in Rey, a wholly new concept in the Star Wars universe. Luke might interpret Rey’s presence as a confirmation, that the galaxy does not need the Jedi, and believe himself to be a possible corrupting influence on Rey, leaving her to figure things out for herself, or alternatively he might consider Rey’s presence a clear sign, that he was wrong to let the Jedi end, as it is the will of the Force for the Jedi to continue. However, he does neither of these things. He barely acknowledges her role in the bigger picture, even if he has sidelined himself, and treats her merely as an inconvenience, who should give up just like he has done. She finally gets tired of Luke’s routine, and leaves, prompting Luke to (again?) attempt to burn the Jedi Temple. Then Yoda appears, gives Luke platitudes, and Luke reverses his position, and accepts he’s not the last Jedi. The whole “we are what they grow beyond” is very prosaic, but rather meaningless (imo) in light of the fact, that the Jedi Masters ignore the elephant in the room, the apparent “Will of the Force”, and its implications to the bigger picture.

It is my opinion, that many of the new elements introduced by TFA and especially TLJ to stitch the different OT settings, elements and story threads together are not properly developed or placed in the context of the larger saga, and thus rather than enrich the Star Wars universe, stick out like a sore thumb. So, in my view episode IX has the difficult task to integrate and further develop these half cooked new concepts, such that it all makes sense once the nine part saga is completed. If it succeeds, and I hope it does, I might see TFA, and TLJ in a different, more positive light.

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Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

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 (Edited)

pleasehello said:

Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

I’d like to see more stories on a smaller scale - a short series of one-off specials - maybe the coming Disney+ service will make this more of a possibility…

(and it’s not like Disney or Lucasfilm are amatuers at maximising revenues (blu ray sales, tv rights, toys, books & comics, merchandise etc - and of course… ‘growing the brand’ 😉)

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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oojason said:

pleasehello said:

Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

I’d like to see more stories on a smaller scale - a short series of one-off specials - maybe the coming Disney+ service will make this more of a possibility…

(and it’s not like Disney or Lucasfilm are amatuers at maximising revenues (blu ray sales, tv rights, toys, books & comics, merchandise etc - and of course… ‘growing the brand’ 😉)

Well it just got announced today that an Obi-Wan series is coming to Disney+.

Noah Lawson

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 (Edited)

pleasehello said:

Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

I also don’t agree veering off would turn Star Wars into an indie film. That would imply that only by continually rehashing Empire vs rebels, Jedi vs Sith, and fallen apprentices Star Wars can remain relevant to a large audience. I believe other epic stories can be told, that expand the universe, and the lore without being so self-referential.

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John_ said:

nl0428 said:

oojason said:

pleasehello said:

Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

I’d like to see more stories on a smaller scale - a short series of one-off specials - maybe the coming Disney+ service will make this more of a possibility…

(and it’s not like Disney or Lucasfilm are amatuers at maximising revenues (blu ray sales, tv rights, toys, books & comics, merchandise etc - and of course… ‘growing the brand’ 😉)

Well it just got announced today that an Obi-Wan series is coming to Disney+.

Not confirmed.

Ah crap! You’re right! I found out that it hasn’t been confirmed necessarily. Sorry for the false alarm.

Noah Lawson

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pleasehello said:

Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

Oh, I agree so please don’t get me wrong. My comments were purely within the context of Disney recouping their 4 billion dollar investment…though, The OT was the beginning of the blockbuster more or less as well.

I would be overjoyed to see a small and smart indie SW film and tbh I think that is where the franchise is going imo. We are seeing a template for an expanded universe vis a vis the MCU I think. For me, it is a great time to be a SW fan.

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It is my opinion, that many of the new elements introduced by TFA and especially TLJ to stitch the different OT settings, elements and story threads together are not properly developed or placed in the context of the larger saga, and thus rather than enrich the Star Wars universe, stick out like a sore thumb. So, in my view episode IX has the difficult task to integrate and further develop these half cooked new concepts, such that it all makes sense once the nine part saga is completed. If it succeeds, and I hope it does, I might see TFA, and TLJ in a different, more positive light.

I think the three trilogies mark one large arc (obviously) that cannot be veered from too much. I understand your concerns with the ST in that we are seeing the OT rearranged in a manner that is quite familiar. This was done so it would appeal to a larger audience and make more money…period. Of course TLJ has really pissed off a certain segment of the fan base but it really just tells the OT story in a different way.

While I am very excited for IX I am just as interested in the continued spin offs and Rian’s trilogy. I think we will see things branch out into new directions.

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In some way, I think we’re going to far with some of these ideas. Some of them are nice, but if they do happen, I highly believe there should be a very big space between the releases of each project. I don’t want Star Wars to be killed by too much content. I just fear that Star Wars could be turned into a dead franchise. There was a time when Star Trek was a dead series, before J.J. Abrams revived it.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

There was a time when Star Trek was a dead series, before J.J. Abrams revived it.

True though I’m not sure if I’d say he revived it so much as “re-animated” it for a period and it has essentially been laid to rest again for the time being.

I more or less generally liked the first new JJ Trek but by number 2 they just felt like blatant ripoffs that had been converted into action movies with a Star Trek veneer.

Not a fan of Discovery either.

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Since some mention turning SW into indie movies, just a reminder: Episodes V-VI-I-II-III are indie movies.

“I have to say that I felt George’s group of six films had more innovative visual imagination, and this film was more of a retrenchment to things you had seen before and characters you had seen before, and it took a few baby steps forward with new characters.” - James Cameron about Episode VII.

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DrDre said:

pleasehello said:

Creox said:

I also think veering off too much and you have a SW indie film that a lot fewer people will want to see.

But would probably be infinitely more interesting. I’m probably in the minority here, but I would love to see a Star Wars story done on a smaller scale. You don’t need $200 million to make a good Star Wars movie.

I also don’t agree veering off would turn Star Wars into an indie film. That would imply that only by continually rehashing Empire vs rebels, Jedi vs Sith, and fallen apprentices Star Wars can remain relevant to a large audience. I believe other epic stories can be told, that expand the universe, and the lore without being so self-referential.

I agree with you Dré about this. After 9 main films, and 2 spin-offs, it’s time to move on from the Force and Jedi and Sith and the Skywalkers.

From what I’ve heard about the Rian trilogy and the Mandalorian, I think this seems to be the direction they want to go in.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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I think it would be fair to predict that no matter what is in the Episode IX trailer, it is just going to be spammed with dislikes. Everyone just jump aboard the hate train I guess. 😦

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I am watching the Oscars right now as I am typing in this post, and I just noticed Adam Driver had a shaved face in the audience. He had just got finished with Episode IX not long before.

Noah Lawson