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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 47

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nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

I prefer to think that doesn’t exist in Star Wars.
———-

Concerning Rey in Episode 9. If I had creative input, here’s my pitch. TLJ clearly establishes a connection between Kylo and Rey. Episode 9 should use the time skip to its advantage and go full on Reylo. Rey thinks if she can get to him, he can still turn. Kylo thinks if he can get to her, she can still turn.

A Jedi and Sith relationship is a new angle to look at the force, but it goes beyond just that. Rey’s greatest weakness so far is her longing for family, and it makes sense for her to cling to someone. But Kylo Ren is a BAD person, and no matter what she thinks he isn’t going to turn it around.

This is a common trend in abusive relationships, which yes can be physical but are also emotional. Having Rey confront this weakness would be far better in my opinion than any super weapon the First Order throws.

By the end Rey has to give up Kylo and as such a chance at a family. But she can also learn to appreciate friendships like Finn (who will be with Rose). This is a lesson I think many can learn from, that relationships come and go but true friends can last forever, and to not continue to be ruled by darkness.

Granted I also want the theme of good and evil and the force explored, but I think this would be an interesting subplot to explore Rey’s part in the finale.

Ben Solo is a very conflicted person, and it’s incredibly sad to see what happened to him when he was younger. He even struggled to kill his father, and his mother. Even when he killed Han, he felt weakened by his act and almost regrets the decision he made. That’s one of the reasons why Snoke is furious with him at the beginning of The Last Jedi. I do believe that he will be redeemed and end up in a relationship with Rey in the end. Having Rey close the door on him is her way of telling him that he needs to discover where he truly belongs. He wants Rey to join him because he cannot trust his family, the Resistance, or the First Order anymore, but he also care tremendously about her. But since Rey has also become a voice for him, it will help him understand himself and why the decisions he’s made have led to this. That’s why he also looks down in defeat and upset when Rey leaves him at the end of The Last Jedi. It’s the beginning for him to understand himself, something that will carry over to Episode IX

I agree redemption is certainly likely for him, but in my opinion it would be a cop out. Darth Vader shows far less emotion than Ben, and he was redeemed. The saga has established at this point anyone can be redeemed.

So if Space Hitler can be redeemed, is it any surprise Space Nixon can be redeemed? It would be a retred of the OT’s themes. This is why I think Ben shouldn’t be turned.

It wouldn’t be a cop out, and not to mention, the themes of the original trilogy will always be present in the saga. It was present in the prequels, it is in the sequels, and it will continue to be thriving within the saga. They are what make Star Wars, Star Wars. Star Wars has not been intended to present messages of revenge, hatred, lust and murder, it has always been about forgiveness and how good people can follow down a dark path, and about their internal conflict between good and evil.

"Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate …leads to suffering.

  • Yoda, The Phantom Menace

The Prequel Trilogy has an interesting premise: a good man turns evil. It shows us many of the same OT themes but inverts them into a “don’t do this” instead of “do this”. The execution is terribly done, but the premise is there.

If Kylo turns back to the light, the ST will be a thematic redo of the OT. It will have nothing new to say. We do not need to see the same story repeat.

I can’t speak for others, but for myself a big part of the ST hype was seeing where the saga would go beyond RotJ. I don’t mean the original trio- I knew all along they would be replaced- but the galaxy and the themes it would present. Episode 9 is the make or break point for me, where the ST will choose to be a worthy part of the saga or a flashier OT.

Unlike Vader, Ben won’t die. It would be a waste if he did get redeemed and die in Episode IX. Anakin, on the other hand, had a full complete life. His story was finished in Return of the Jedi. If Lucasfilm wants to make Episodes X, XI and XII sometime in the future, they should have it be built and focused on Rey, Ben and their kids.

I don’t think this would make much of a difference, unless a significant part of Episode 9 is dedicated to Ben’s trial by the Republic on accounts of war crimes: showing your actions have consequences but you can still turn it around.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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“Because it’s been done before” in my mind is a terrible reason not to do something. I’m not expecting anything specific in terms of what happens in IX (other than generally continuing and concluding the themes and character arcs of the trilogy), except I have to say if Ben ends the trilogy being just straight up evil, I will be pretty miffed. In my mind that’d be anti-thetical to the spirit of Star Wars.

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DominicCobb said:

“Because it’s been done before” in my mind is a terrible reason not to do something. I’m not expecting anything specific in terms of what happens in IX (other than generally continuing and concluding the themes and character arcs of the trilogy), except I have to say if Ben ends the trilogy being just straight up evil, I will be pretty miffed. In my mind that’d be anti-thetical to the spirit of Star Wars.

I completely agree with you. It would be a very down type of ending. It would be perfect if Episode IX’s final shot just before the credits is Rey and Ben looking off towards the sky on whatever planet they are on. Whether it be Tatooine, Jakku, Ahch-To, Yavin IV, Naboo, or a new planet.

Noah Lawson

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I think the big question it comes down to is how IX will conclude and tie into the saga thematically. If Ben dies evil, what will the concluding message be for the overall saga? What if Ben is redeemed and lives?

And if he is redeemed, how will that be executed? I think we immediately think of Vader’s redemption and just seeing it as a repeat of that, but I Ben being redeemed doesn’t necessarily mean it will play out the same way it did for Vader.

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RogueLeader said:

I think the big question it comes down to is how IX will conclude and tie into the saga thematically. If Ben dies evil, what will the concluding message be for the overall saga? What if Ben is redeemed and lives?

And if he is redeemed, how will that be executed? I think we immediately think of Vader’s redemption and just seeing it as a repeat of that, but I Ben being redeemed doesn’t necessarily mean it will play out the same way it did for Vader.

At this point “the way it played out for Vader” is already not an option. Kylo already killed Snoke, so at least in some regard it will be different. He’s the Supreme Leader now and we’re in uncharted territory which is very exciting to me.

I will say I’m worried most about how they’ll handle Ben but at the same time I have the most confidence in that aspect. I think JJ, having originated the character, definitely has what it takes to resolve his story.

Unfortunately the biggest shame of the trilogy is that we’ll never get to see Ben and Leia share the screen together.

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Vader was redeemed by his love for Luke… cheesy and unearned as that might be.

Kylo currently hates everyone? Really he needs to have a major new characterisation moment or realise he screwed up before falling into a hell of his own making. Something like that.

Yub Nub for life

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Mocata said:

Vader was redeemed by his love for Luke… cheesy and unearned as that might be.

Kylo currently hates everyone? Really he needs to have a major new characterisation moment or realise he screwed up before falling into a hell of his own making. Something like that.

That’s not true. He cares truly for Rey. Just like how Anakin’s love for Luke brought him back, Ben’s love for Rey will also play a key factor to his redemption.

“You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You’re nothing. But not to me.”

  • Kylo Ren/Ben Solo (The Last Jedi)

Noah Lawson

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OutboundFlight said:

But it’s so predictable…

There are MANY people who still think that Ben will die as a villain and will not be redeemed.

Noah Lawson

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 (Edited)

Lucasfilm shouldn’t make Episode X though. The saga will be beyond complete. If they really want more episodes that badly, they should make a new saga, starting at Episode I.

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I guess no Super Bowl teaser this year? We’re probably going to get a teaser attached to Avengers Endgame in April.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Anakin Starkiller said:

Lucasfilm shouldn’t make Episode X though. The saga will be beyond complete. If they really want more episodes that badly, they should make a new saga, starting at Episode I.

I hope that’s what Rian’s trilogy is. A story set in the same universe wholly disconnected to Skywalker’s or Jedi.

she/her

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snooker said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

Lucasfilm shouldn’t make Episode X though. The saga will be beyond complete. If they really want more episodes that badly, they should make a new saga, starting at Episode I.

I hope that’s what Rian’s trilogy is. A story set in the same universe wholly disconnected to Skywalker’s or Jedi.

They’ve been saying from the very beginning that Rian Johnson’s trilogy is wholly disconnected from the main saga.

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SilverWook said:

I guess no Super Bowl teaser this year? We’re probably going to get a teaser attached to Avengers Endgame in April.

Could well be mate - maybe a teaser or mini-trailer of some kind at Celebration 2019 (10-14 days) before that?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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oojason said:

SilverWook said:

I guess no Super Bowl teaser this year? We’re probably going to get a teaser attached to Avengers Endgame in April.

Could well be mate - maybe a teaser or mini-trailer of some kind at Celebration 2019 (10-14 days) before that?

We’ll get our first trailer at Celebration, and we’ll probably get the title soon. From what I’ve heard, production is supposed to wrap up this month.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

Mocata said:

Vader was redeemed by his love for Luke… cheesy and unearned as that might be.

Kylo currently hates everyone? Really he needs to have a major new characterisation moment or realise he screwed up before falling into a hell of his own making. Something like that.

That’s not true. He cares truly for Rey. Just like how Anakin’s love for Luke brought him back, Ben’s love for Rey will also play a key factor to his redemption.

“You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You’re nothing. But not to me.”

  • Kylo Ren/Ben Solo (The Last Jedi)

Sounds like bad guy manipulation to me. He needs to fall down a mineshaft pronto. Hopefully in a haze of despair as he sees the faces of all his murder victims.

Yub Nub for life

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RogueLeader said:

And of course, it is heartbreaking that Carrie couldn’t film her last performance as Leia, but it is likely that Leia still would’ve been behind the scenes mostly, and I feel they will be able to fulfill whatever necessary role she was meant to fill with the extra footage they have. They seemed pretty confident that they have enough material (and aren’t they lucky they decided to cut a lot of her TFA scenes?). As long as they have enough for a few moments with the Resistance, and maybe one moment related to Ben/Kylo Ren, I think that will be enough. And by her playing a supporting role, it gives us more time for the young heroes to drive the story and be on screen together for the final film.

I think it’s going to be a little jarring for me to see Carrie Fisher’s unused footage from TFA in Ep. IX. I really didn’t like what they did to her in TFA. Her main jumpsuit costume was not flattering and they pulled her face back so tight to try and get rid of any sagging or wrinkles that she could barely move her mouth. They treated her a lot better in TLJ. She looked much more natural.

I just don’t think they’ll be able to convince me that any coverage of her belongs in the movie. But maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised.

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OutboundFlight said:
I agree redemption is certainly likely for him, but in my opinion it would be a cop out.

That’s where I am on it. This is the guy who killed Han and tried to kill Luke, Leia, et al. If he’s turned and redeemed, it feels like nothing can be taken too seriously. He tried to kill every one of the original 1977 heroes and succeeded in one instance?..it’s ok, he’s good now. Everyone gather for the group shot at the end aaaaand - titles, cue the feel-good fanfare.

That, to me, would be a really weak way to make everything happy and good. Maybe have him die while helping defeat FO, but not help, live, and good guy. Not after what he’s done or tried to do.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

"Why are you here, Rey from nowhere?”

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Hopefully she’s wearing this costume from the movie, or maybe one we didn’t see before in the finished film?

I didn’t mind the other outfit, it showed she was not having any of the trappings of royalty and could relate to the troops. It also echoed her Hoth outfit in Empire.

There are so many ways now that they can digitally manipulate the Leia footage, (while preserving Carrie’s performance) I doubt integrating it into new sequences will be a major problem.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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pleasehello said:

RogueLeader said:

And of course, it is heartbreaking that Carrie couldn’t film her last performance as Leia, but it is likely that Leia still would’ve been behind the scenes mostly, and I feel they will be able to fulfill whatever necessary role she was meant to fill with the extra footage they have. They seemed pretty confident that they have enough material (and aren’t they lucky they decided to cut a lot of her TFA scenes?). As long as they have enough for a few moments with the Resistance, and maybe one moment related to Ben/Kylo Ren, I think that will be enough. And by her playing a supporting role, it gives us more time for the young heroes to drive the story and be on screen together for the final film.

I think it’s going to be a little jarring for me to see Carrie Fisher’s unused footage from TFA in Ep. IX. I really didn’t like what they did to her in TFA. Her main jumpsuit costume was not flattering and they pulled her face back so tight to try and get rid of any sagging or wrinkles that she could barely move her mouth. They treated her a lot better in TLJ. She looked much more natural.

I just don’t think they’ll be able to convince me that any coverage of her belongs in the movie. But maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised.

I 100% guarantee you that unused TLJ footage will be mined as well, not just TFA. They just specifically called out TFA in the announcement because Abrams directed it and IX.

a trolling bantha

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Good point. There always seems to be more unused/deleted footage from each film than they ever let on about. Look at the stuff from the OT that we didn’t know existed until it was shown at Celebration.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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 (Edited)

Mocata said:

nl0428 said:

Mocata said:

Vader was redeemed by his love for Luke… cheesy and unearned as that might be.

Kylo currently hates everyone? Really he needs to have a major new characterisation moment or realise he screwed up before falling into a hell of his own making. Something like that.

That’s not true. He cares truly for Rey. Just like how Anakin’s love for Luke brought him back, Ben’s love for Rey will also play a key factor to his redemption.

“You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You’re nothing. But not to me.”

  • Kylo Ren/Ben Solo (The Last Jedi)

Sounds like bad guy manipulation to me. He needs to fall down a mineshaft pronto. Hopefully in a haze of despair as he sees the faces of all his murder victims.

You didn’t even feel any sympathy for him, knowing that rather than confronting his nephew and a family way to help him, Luke originally thought about killing his own nephew instead? Ben thought Luke was going to kill him, (which he was planning on) but decided to give in to Snoke’s manipulations since his own uncle tried to kill him, and his isolation and loneliness from his family have made him vulnerable for Snoke to take him. Ben, that night before Luke showed up, was still feeling lonely, yet still conflicted on his choice.

REY: Is it true!? Did you create Kylo Ren!?

He actually kinda did.

LUKE: I failed you, Ben. I’m sorry.

BEN: I’m sure you are!

The audience is supposed to view him the same way Rey does. He isn’t manipulating her, but helping her understand the truth, yet wanting to give her a better future. He’s going about it the wrong way, but he wouldn’t manipulate the one he cares for. If Snoke hadn’t set up the connection between the two, he probably would’ve tried manipulating her. But since the two have understood each other fully, they now look at one another differently.

“You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force.”

In The Force Awakens, he wanted to take her as his apprentice.

“Rey. I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the Galaxy.”

Now after getting to know her better, he wants the two to stand side by side equally. Wanting the best for the both of them.

REY: I’ve never felt so alone.

BEN: You’re not alone.

REY: Neither are you. It isn’t too late.

Noah Lawson

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OutboundFlight said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

I prefer to think that doesn’t exist in Star Wars.

Boys pulling girls’ pigtails is a thing in all possible worlds. Deal with it.

I can no longer call myself a Star Wars fan. I’m sick of the same played-out aesthetics/tropes being remixed/regurgitated time-&-time again; I’m sick of the deteriorating characterization/worldbuilding which have been in play since 1983; I’m sick of the toxic fanboys from all ideological camps; I’m sick of the capitalist pigs who refuse to allow this IP into the public domain where it rightly belongs. So while I may still admire the first two films for their technical achievements and characters, I’m no longer capable of enjoying Star Wars in any capacity due to the reasons delineated above.