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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 150

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Broom Kid said:

Again, the big problem with devoting so much time and energy to a lot of these little fiddly details in the plotting is that even if those questions were answered satisfactorily within the narrative - it still wouldn’t be a good movie, would it?

If I put together a 1000 piece puzzle perfectly, but the picture I assemble with no missing pieces is of a broken mirror reflecting a junk-strewn yard… does it matter that all these fiddly details are there and accounted for?

the only notion I want to push back a little on in this ongoing discussion is that there are somehow ironclad “Star Wars Specific” rules that got broken here, and there aren’t, really. There are plenty of storytelling and filmmaking mistakes, and the normal sorts of things that happen to make ANY movie mediocre and uninteresting to sit through, but I don’t think most of The Rise of Skywalkers’ sins are specifically Star Wars related, and I don’t think if many of these grievances had been fixed prior to release, the reception would have been markedly different.

Star Wars tends to break its own “rules” with every movie anyway, and that’s good, honestly. They’re completely made up in the first place. So long as you can cleverly break them, with satisfactorily emotional results (even if the result is as surface level as “whoa, cool!”) then breaking “Star Wars” rules isn’t a big problem at all. Nobody’s going to Star Wars movies to see its rules upheld. They’re going to Star Wars to be emotionally engaged by the story being told. And that’s not really happening with Rise of Skywalker for a fair amount of its viewers.

The weird thing for me is/was that TROS somehow took me back to a time where ‘rules’ weren’t an issue - that time being 1980 and TESB. I can’t quite explain it, it was just a bizarre visceral thing that I haven’t experienced in a SW film since then. But the lore and canon are still a tangled mess for me. My wife joked - as we left the cinema after seeing TROS for the 3rd time! - that she could imagine me watching ANH followed by TESB followed by TROS as a kind of crazy machete order. She wasn’t necessarily wrong! Every criticism levelled at the ST (and the PT for that matter) I pretty much agree with in the general sense, but somehow my ‘canon-brain’ experienced TROS as if I’d been living in seclusion for 40 years and TROS just happened to be the sequel to some amazing movies I hadn’t seen yet. This probably sounds insane! For example I just watched Mauler’s takedown of TROS and I honestly can’t fault his points, but my fanboy brain wasn’t connecting those dots at all as I watched TROS. I’m obviously aware of Rey and Poe and Holdo and everything else, but during my viewings of TROS these things became vague notions rather than 'well Rey couldn’t be this and Luke wouldn’t do that and Palpatine couldn’t be X and the Force would never Y…". I think it was Dom who said in a thread that he experiences SW films individually rather than setting them against each other in terms of canon/consistency (hope I’m not misrepresenting you Dom!) and this was the first time it happened for me without my really noticing.

I thought watching TROS again might expose the cracks, but what it really made me notice was just how much TROS resonated/resonates with me as a defacto Revenge of the Jedi. So much of TROS is what I wish ROTJ had been - the chemistry between the leads, the emotional moments and redemptions, the environments, the temptation of Rey, the horrific nature of Palpatine etc etc. So like I said to Dre earlier, my obvious bias allows for this particular rehash to get a free pass for me! Sorry about the rambling…

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It’s not rambling at all! And I’m honestly glad it connected with you on an emotional level. I have my problems with it but I absolutely don’t want it to seem like I’m trying to argue you OUT of having those feelings. Even if that was a thing I wanted to do (and I don’t) it would be an exercise in futility. I’m glad it worked for you, and I don’t think you’re insane (or anywhere near it) for enjoying it on a level I didn’t.

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Broom Kid said:

Again, the big problem with devoting so much time and energy to a lot of these little fiddly details in the plotting is that even if those questions were answered satisfactorily within the narrative - it still wouldn’t be a good movie, would it?

If I put together a 1000 piece puzzle perfectly, but the picture I assemble with no missing pieces is of a broken mirror reflecting a junk-strewn yard… does it matter that all these fiddly details are there and accounted for?

the only notion I want to push back a little on in this ongoing discussion is that there are somehow ironclad “Star Wars Specific” rules that got broken here, and there aren’t, really. There are plenty of storytelling and filmmaking mistakes, and the normal sorts of things that happen to make ANY movie mediocre and uninteresting to sit through, but I don’t think most of The Rise of Skywalkers’ sins are specifically Star Wars related, and I don’t think if many of these grievances had been fixed prior to release, the reception would have been markedly different.

Star Wars tends to break its own “rules” with every movie anyway, and that’s good, honestly. They’re completely made up in the first place. So long as you can cleverly break them, with satisfactorily emotional results (even if the result is as surface level as “whoa, cool!”) then breaking “Star Wars” rules isn’t a big problem at all. Nobody’s going to Star Wars movies to see its rules upheld. They’re going to Star Wars to be emotionally engaged by the story being told. And that’s not really happening with Rise of Skywalker for a fair amount of its viewers.

I’m the first to agree that plot holes are usually the least important things to consider when evaluating a film. I generally focus more on the themes and the characters in the movie. The topic at hand was the things in the plot that don’t make sense, so that’s what my post was focused on. I have a number of other issues with this film regarding the tone, pacing, character arcs, dialogue, humor, and themes. So yes, even if the plot was more logical, it still wouldn’t make this a good movie.

But I still think it’s problem when you have so many vague and unexplained things in the story that the film becomes confusing.

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If plot holes are too big and obvious then they will adversely affect any movie but I would say they aren’t usually that much of an issue if you are enjoying and invested in the story being told and you’re more likely to excuse any plot holes you do notice anyway as you’ve seen value in the story being told.

If you’re not invested and having a good time of it then I’d say you’re far more likely to focus on whether the movie even makes sense to begin with and one full of plot holes no matter how big or small is going to get torn apart by those that are just trying to at least follow what plot is being served up to them.

I agree that ensuring you have a bullet proof plot isn’t going to stop a bad movie from being a bad movie but plot holes are going to be criticised all the same when they’re part of the problem.

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Valheru_84 said:

If plot holes are too big and obvious then they will adversely affect any movie but I would say they aren’t usually that much of an issue if you are enjoying and invested in the story being told and you’re more likely to excuse any plot holes you do notice anyway as you’ve seen value in the story being told.

If you’re not invested and having a good time of it then I’d say you’re far more likely to focus on whether the movie even makes sense to begin with and one full of plot holes no matter how big or small is going to get torn apart by those that are just trying to at least follow what plot is being served up to them.

I agree that ensuring you have a bullet proof plot isn’t going to stop a bad movie from being a bad movie but plot holes are going to be criticised all the same when they’re part of the problem.

You have now seen the TROS film?

Or are just commenting on what others have said about it?

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Force-Abel said:

Valheru_84 said:

If plot holes are too big and obvious then they will adversely affect any movie but I would say they aren’t usually that much of an issue if you are enjoying and invested in the story being told and you’re more likely to excuse any plot holes you do notice anyway as you’ve seen value in the story being told.

If you’re not invested and having a good time of it then I’d say you’re far more likely to focus on whether the movie even makes sense to begin with and one full of plot holes no matter how big or small is going to get torn apart by those that are just trying to at least follow what plot is being served up to them.

I agree that ensuring you have a bullet proof plot isn’t going to stop a bad movie from being a bad movie but plot holes are going to be criticised all the same when they’re part of the problem.

You have now seen the TROS film?

Or are just commenting on what others have said about it?

You seem to be spamming your question, here is what I’ve already said in response in another thread:

Valheru_84 said:

Force-Abel said:

Valheru_84 said:

Mocata said:

It’s the same thing as Luke testing his.

Except it’s not the same and that’s what my initial point was in replying to Yotsuya. Rey testing her saber was already discarded as a possible in story reason for igniting her saber since it’s clear it was completed well before this scene and would have been tested back when it was actually completed rather than carrying around an untested saber with no tools on hand to continue working on it if it doesn’t work the first time you go to use it. It is literally just the movie doing a soft 4th wall in saying “look audience, Rey has built a new lightsaber”. If they did have her adding the final few components that she scrounged from Obiwan’s hut and then testing it, then there was a reason in the story itself. As it is, her actions are inexplicable as presented and therefore the only reason left is the obvious meta nature of the reveal.

Mocata said:

However it makes no sense that this is Tatooine, a place important to the audience and not to a single character involved.

Yes, another issue with the scene among others I’m sure if you continue to think about it as JJ hopes you don’t 😉

You have now seen the TROS film?

I have seen footage of the scene on YouTube and read the leaked plot months ago. I might watch the full movie at some stage just to see it in it’s completed form but I’m not paying to see on the big screen what I already know I won’t enjoy.

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mykyta-R4, Valheru_84, and Force-Abel - you all have a PM, and some of your posts have been removed.

Meanwhile, stop derailing the threads with your off-topic comments and posts - and going over old ground which is best left in the past.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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Shopping Maul said:

somehow my ‘canon-brain’ experienced TROS as if I’d been living in seclusion for 40 years and TROS just happened to be the sequel to some amazing movies I hadn’t seen yet. This probably sounds insane!

It really doesn’t, this feeling absolutely resonates with me as well and overall I feel like each of the three movies have that quality when viewed in isolation that improves the experience more than watching the trilogy as a whole. Glad you had the experience you did! It’s refreshing to see from OT fans.

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act on instinct said:

Shopping Maul said:

somehow my ‘canon-brain’ experienced TROS as if I’d been living in seclusion for 40 years and TROS just happened to be the sequel to some amazing movies I hadn’t seen yet. This probably sounds insane!

It really doesn’t, this feeling absolutely resonates with me as well and overall I feel like each of the three movies have that quality when viewed in isolation that improves the experience more than watching the trilogy as a whole. Glad you had the experience you did! It’s refreshing to see from OT fans.

Thank you - I appreciate the feedback!

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‘Star Wars: #TheRiseOfSkywalker has been nominated for 3 Academy Awards for Best Visual Effects, Best Score, and Best Sound Editing. Congratulations! #OscarNoms’

^ https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1216720233492148225
 

‘Oscars: John Williams Breaks Own Record With ‘Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker’ Score Nomination’:-

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/john-williams-breaks-own-oscars-record-2020-nomination-1268874
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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The fact that Williams has now been nominated for all of the OT and all of the ST makes his complete shut out from the PT all the more questionable. I think perhaps the only explanation is he had other scores those years that the Academy was more interested in.

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DominicCobb said:

The fact that Williams has now been nominated for all of the OT and all of the ST makes his complete shut out from the PT all the more questionable. I think perhaps the only explanation is he had other scores those years that the Academy was more interested in.

Angela’s Ashes in 1999, Catch Me If You Can in 2002, and both Memories of a Geisha and Munich in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_nominations_received_by_John_Williams

In 2002, he also had Minority Report and Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets go unnominated, and War of the Worlds in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_John_Williams#Film_scores

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Cthulhunicron said:

Hal 9000 said:

It just doesn’t make any sense.

Nope. Neither does the dagger.

I kind of sort of like this explanation of the dagger found here:(https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/efnzvh/why_would_the_sith_make_a_knife_that_does_what_it/)

"The only explanation that makes sense to me is that the dagger was given to Ochi by a member of the Eternal Sith Cult. His orders were to kill Rey’s parents, retrieve Rey, then use the dagger to find the wayfinder for himself to bring Rey to Exogol. I guess having the coordinates eched into the dagger was a dramatic way for the overly ritualistic cultists to get their message across? “Here’s a mysterious dagger delivered to a Sith assassin by Sithy persons unknown; you know what to do, bro.” Maybe this is standard operating procedure for these evil weirdos.

After initially failing in his mission, Ochi kept the dagger with the intention of finding Rey through other means. He had the dagger on his person when he unexpectedly died."

I also like the idea (which I read somewhere else but now can’t remember where) that the wayfinders were keyed to Vader and Palpatine bloodlines in some way and that is why Kylo was able to retrieve his as it was stashed by Vader and that was also why Rey was needed to find the one Palpatine stashed as his was ‘keyed’ to his DNA, so Ochi had to have both Rey and the Dagger before he could retrieve the Wayfinder and find his way back to Exogol (if I remember correctly the room Rey finds the Wayfinder in just kind of opened as she approached it so this would make sense, i guess…).

So Palpatine returns, knows he’s got an heir out there that he wants to turn so he has Sith cultists recruit someone and give him a means to return to him on Exogol but only if he completes his mission, but safeguards it so that if someone else finds the map they wont know what it is out of context. The fact that it matches up with the Death Star II remnants just means that the Sith Cultists/Palpatine didn’t make the dagger until they knew they were going to recruit someone to abduct Rey and bring her to Palpatine on Exogol.

–It works for my own head cannon, i’m sure it will be shot full of holes soon enough though. And it doesn’t really do much for all the other issues in the movie.

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But is the dagger made of magic Sith nano-metal that can shift with the tides or is it total nonsense

Yub Nub for life

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I’m just assuming the tides aren’t significant enough to submerge the necessary landmarks on the DSII wreckage to make the dagger useless, and the dagger was made recently enough to make erosion not an issue at the time of the movie, but you could consider erosion a built in failsafe or timer on the dagger’s utility

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Robert Meyer Burnett reviews an early draft of Star Wars’ 9th episode entitled DUEL OF THE FATES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU

He goes into more detail in this video https://youtu.be/V2wkFwzyfqI

Trevorrow’s draft is from 12.16.16 (a week before Carrie’s death)
Title is DUEL OF THE FATES
CRAWL:

The iron grip of the FIRST ORDER has spread to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Only a few scattered planets remain unoccupied. Traitorous acts are punishable by death.

Determined to suffocate a growing unrest, Supreme Leader KYLO REN has silenced all communication between neighboring systems.

Led by GENERAL LEIA ORGANA, the Resistance has planned a secret mission to prevent their annihilation and forge a path to freedom…

-Opens at the Kuat Shipyards (man on a mission-style)
BB-8 and Rose Tico (allegedly a key character in script) are infiltrating Kuat Moon where First Order build their ships (workers are oppressed). There is an orbital ring and moon below it. Finn and Poe are there. No R2/3PO. Rey arrives.
-The plan: Send explosive into the power shaft that delivers raw ore into the ring.
Plan goes wrong. (RBM loves dialogue at this moment.) First Order is able to contain blast. Admiral Vaughn says Resistance tactics are “pitful.”
-Rey disguised as a Tusken Raider is revealed to have created her own weapon (a double-blade lightsaber hybrid of her staff and Luke’s cracked saber).
They battle and Poe, Finn, Rose, Rey, and BB-8 STEAL A STAR DESTROYER (Eclipse-class) and escape.
-The Knife 9 a ship containing the Knights of Ren arrives a Kuat. Ataska (?) Ren kills Admiral Vaughn for his failure.
-CUT TO: CORUSCANT. No longer a vibrant city. “The new structures are built atop the art deco structure of the old republic.” Occupied by the First Order now (they have a citadel/palace there). Citizens are scavengers now. Hux is now CHANCELLOR HUX and is addressing Bisc Kova (traitor who helped Resist. steal Star Destroyer.) Kova is executed with a light blade guillotine.
Hux and Commander Selleck have a meeting with several alien war lords (ode to ANH imperial council scene). First Order has allies. They are aware of Rey being the last Jedi. Council wants to know WHERE IS KYLO REN? He is missing. Hux only knows he has gone searching for something of great power.
-CUT TO: MUSTAFAR. Kylo Ren is alone, except for a Darth Maul-esque droid. He has stubble indicating search has been for a long time. Ren is being HAUNTED by Luke’s force ghost.
Luke: “This is where the dark path leads; an empty tomb.” Kylo (retort): “Where did your path lead?”
-Luke is trying to convince him to go back to Leia. Kylo: “I’m going to be more powerful than any Jedi…even you.”
-In Vader’s Temple, Kylo finds a Sith Holocron which reveals a hologram of Palpatine. Recording is for Vader. Palpatine has a contingency for Vader if Luke kills him. Vader is to take Luke to the Remnicore (?) System to see TOR VALUM, Master of Sith/Palpatine’s Teacher.
-After scanning Kylo, the Holocron explodes and releases red lighting which burns Kylo, who screams.
-CUT TO: RESISTANCE BASE on KOR-ALAF (?). Leia is introduced as she feels what’s happening to Ben. Chewbacca and Lt. Connix tell Leia that the Kuat team is back. They’re shocked to see a Star Destroyer (which is landed onto the planet). Funny moment w/ Rey using Mind Trick on First Order officers who were still on the ship.
-Rey confides in Finn that she doesn’t feel like she has what it takes to be a Jedi and can’t live up to everyone’s expectations. Finn asks her if she still senses Kylo. Rey confesses she’s been having nightmares. Finn asks if it’s Kylo. Rey says she can’t explain their connection.
-Finn: “You have to shut him out. He can’t change. It’s too late.” Rey: “It’s never to late to change. You taught me that Finn.”
Resistance realizes that the Star Destroyer stills has most of it’s weapons (tanks, TIEs, etc). Only missing piece is an army to use it.
-Rey researching the Jedi texts from Anch-To discovers that under Coruscant Jedi Temple there is a communication system (called a FORCE BEACON) from the Old Republic that can send a signal to 50 planets. They plan on using it to get allies. First Order can’t stop it, since it predates Imperial tech. Rey: “Hope is all we have left.”
-Force Ghost Luke appears as Rey trains. Luke is pushing Rey to get stronger in the Force, while he is pushing Kylo to let Ben out.
-Kylo makes it back to Coruscant. Face is damaged. Mandalorian armor is smelted and is been applied to his face. Confronts Hux and belittles him, saying he doesn’t need titles.
-Rey to Luke as they train: “Balance? The dark suffocates the light, light extinguishes the dark. Over and over and over again. How is that balance in the force?”
Luke: "I know that anger. My father had it too.’
Rey: “So says my master and his master before him. A thousand masters so eager to tell us how to live.”
Rest of exchange between Rey and Luke is basically Rey trying to back away from being a Jedi (she admits she is NO ONE) and Luke trying to convince her (he says the Force is speaking to her).
-Back to Kylo. He and Hux continue to snipe at each other. Kylo says he’s leaving again, but not before telling Hux the power he discovered will make destroying planets insignificant. Kylo’s last order to Hux: “Find the Resistance, wipe them out, leave the girl to me.”
-TEAM A (Rose, Finn, R2, 3PO): Going to Coruscant to light the beacon.
-TEAM B (Rey, Poe, Chewbacca): Going to a planet to find someone to help Rey figure out what she needs to do. (side: Yes, his descrp. is that vague)
-Kylo is going to a Sith Planet/Remnicore. EDIT: Before he leaves Coruscant, he takes Vader’s mask and says he understands Vader now. Kylo: “You allowed love to cloud your judgement” and he throws Vader’s mask off of a balcony and it shatters.
-Leia stays at the base overseeing the Resistance.
-Before Rey leaves, she and Leia have an exchange were Rey says she believes there’s still good in Kylo. Leia is skeptical, but Rey believes in her Jedi Training. Leia: “You’re not like my father or my brother. You’re new. Whatever happens, remember the force choose you Rey. You’re story isn’t written by anyone else.”

RMB starts summarizing now:

-First Order tracks down stolen Star Destroyer to Kor-Alaf. Resistance escapes.
-TEAM A successfully infiltrates the Jedi Temple and turn on the beacon. Cut to different places around the galaxy receiving the signal (Bossk cameo). It is then cut off by the First Order. TEAM A then flee into the underbelly of Coruscant.
-TEAM B are being pursued by the Knife 9 (Knights of Ren ship) and eventually reach the planet Bonadan.
-Kylo reaches Remincore and confronts Tor Valum (7000 yrs old, alien of unknown origin, spindly, intense sinewy muscle – very Lovecraftian). Kylo begins training with Valum. Ode to ESB Cave scene: Kylo fights Vader. Fight is brutal and Kylo loses.
Bonadan: Poe takes Rey to a Seer who can pull information out of memories. The Seer pulls a star chart out of Rey’s mind from her visions w/ Kylo. Knights of Ren show up and fight Rey in a lightsaber battle. She defeats them and TEAM B escapes.
-Both Rey and Kylo eventually get to MORTIS.
-Leia asks Lando if he will organize the smugglers and fight the First Order.
-Rose is captured and tortured by the First Order, but is able to escape.
-Finn/R2/3PO start a citizens uprising on Coruscant around the First Order’s Citadel/Palace.
-Leia brings her forces to Coruscant to battle the FO. Massive space battle, ground battle (ROTJ-style you know the works lol). Chewie flies an X-Wing.
-Rey and Kylo battle on Mortis, using force energy that can pull from each other. At some point is revealed Kylo killed Rey’s parents at the behest of Snoke. Towards the end, Luke/Obi Wan/Yoda appear as Force Ghosts to save Ben, but are unsuccessful. Ben is “extinguished.”
RMB seems to be at the end, so just for house keeping sake - Resistance won, First Order loses.
One final deet: Han Solo did appear in the script and does confront Kylo at some point.

-(summary copied from reddit)

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Hmm, that doesn’t really seem to follow the idea that Ep IX was supposed to be Leia’s movie, as TFA’s was Han’s, and TLJ was Luke’s. Makes me doubt its legitimacy.

While the plot sounds more interesting and respectful of TLJ, it’s impossible to make a judgement without reading it directly. Some of the best movies have the worst plots, and vice versa.

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In the second video he says that leia calls out to Ben through the force at the climax of his battle with Rey, this was later incorporated into JJs script

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Cthulhunicron said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

There’s a difference between a movie having a sci-fi/fantasy vibe where the science isn’t very accurate, and a movie being incomprehensible.

You say these things are incomprehensible. I say they make complete sense.

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Mocata said:

But is the dagger made of magic Sith nano-metal that can shift with the tides or is it total nonsense

Why? Pieces that large are not going to move. It will take decades or centuries for the water to wear through or move them. All the beached ships around the globe kind of blow your complaint out of the water.

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yotsuya said:

Cthulhunicron said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

StarkillerAG said:

pleasehello said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re not meant to stop and think and try to make sense of it all Hal 😉

You jest, but it’s true. That’s the way Star Wars has always been. It’s emotional, not logical. None of it makes any sense logically and if you think about the viability of certain plot elements in those terms, it falls apart. So no, you’re not meant to make sense of it all.

That’s not the way it used to be. The OT makes sense, every action is justified.

The walkers don’t make sense. Neither does the two-dimensional space flight. Nor the idea of a giant slug being sexually attracted to humanoid women.

Apples and oranges. There’s a slight suspension of disbelief with the original three movies. TROS is complete nonsense by comparison. Palpatine is resurrected with no explanation. The Sith Eternal somehow create a fleet bigger than the First Order with no explanation. The Sith fleet can’t leave Exegol even though apparently ships have been coming and going for decades. A gigantic piece of the Death Star survives the explosion in ROTJ and re-entry through an atmosphere with no explanation. Ochi for some reason has a dagger that is shaped to fit along the skyline of the wreckage, and for some reason it has Sith writing, telling him where to find the holocron, even though he already knows where it is. Did he make the dagger? Did he find it? Who knows, cause the movie never tells us. Hux saves Poe and Finn, despite not having any real reason to do so. I could go on and on.

There’s a difference between a movie having a sci-fi/fantasy vibe where the science isn’t very accurate, and a movie being incomprehensible.

You say these things are incomprehensible. I say they make complete sense.

I say down is up and war is peace.

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Here’s the thing about these movies. The audience likes them. Not everyone. Not everyone liked the original. But in general, a lot of people loved TROS. There have been lots of emotional reviews on social media. For a lot of people, it was a very emotional and satisfying film. Isn’t that what it is supposed to be? So it isn’t to some people’s liking. You can say that about each of the 9 films. Some are wondering why this one didn’t do as well as TLJ, well, perhaps we should also be asking why ROTJ didn’t do as well as TESB.

Back in 1977, one of the reasons that the first film was a success was that it touched something in viewers. It was faster and more intense than typical films of the day. Even than Lucas’s two previous films. I thought the PT films were too fast and intense. TPM less so and I really enjoyed it the first time I saw it. I have not felt that either TLJ or TROS was too fast and intense. I did feel that about each of the theatrical versions of The Hobbit films. And the original films are full of their own gaffs and plot holes. Most of us ignore them because we love the films. Well, that is how I feel about a lot of the things that were glossed over in TROS. I was satisfied with what the film delivered and I don’t need every single dangling story to be completed. The Sith dagger was obviously made after the Death Star blew up and crashed and recent enough that it was still accurate. Rey recognized the ship because it probably was her parents and the Sith assasin stole it. All these questions have rally easy answers that you can infer from what the movie gives you. But the specific answer isn’t important to the plot. Movies do not have to tie up every loose end. They are a short hand story telling format that often leaves things to the imagination. If we enjoy the story we suspend belief and don’t need the answers. None of these things are key to the main plot of the film.

So I, and many others have found the story to be soundly structured and emotionally satisfying. How they handled Leia was amazing and they gave her a proper sendoff. Palpatine’s return doesn’t really need an explanation beyond what Palapatine offers (mysterious sith abilities). Going into detail about any of these things is a rabbit hole we don’t need to go down. None of the OT films bother to tell us the details of how things work. We never get a breakdown of how the Death Star weapon works. We never get an explanation of how they built a second Death Star in 4 years. We never question the coincidence that brought R2 and Threepio to the very spot on Tatooine that they needed to be. If you put the OT to the same scrutiny you are giving TROS, it will fall apart just as fast. The whole point to Star Wars is that it is supposed to be a cheesy serial where heroes face impossible odds and win only to face the next challenge. Lucas wrapped it in mythology, samurai cinema, and science ficiton and gave the world he created solidity by making it used and battered, but it is still a unique twist on Flash Gordon and I think Abrams and Johnson managed to capture that and create some films that match modern fast paced films. And I don’t think it is coincidence that the way a lot of people are describing TROS makes me think of the Indiana Jones films. That is the same idea except it is set in the past rather than in space. Still a serial. The Bond films are very similar as well. And I found TROS to have more emotional impact than any of those.

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If you like this movie that’s fine, I’m not trying to take that away from you. But you shouldn’t dismiss the complaints of people who don’t like the movie by saying that they’re nitpicking and biased, or that most people like it, or that the movie actually makes complete sense in a way the critics just don’t understand. I don’t have a problem with people liking this movie, I have a problem with people who like the movie getting defensive when someone criticizes it. If you can just accept that some people have a different opinion than you, you’ll be a lot happier in life.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

I have a problem with people who like the movie getting defensive when someone criticizes it.

I mean, if someone like the movie obviously they’re going to get defensive in regards to criticism. If you like a movie and aren’t willing to defend it, do you even like it?

If you can just accept that some people have a different opinion than you, you’ll be a lot happier in life.

Couldn’t the same be said in reverse? Why get upset about people liking and defending the movie?