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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 133

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Nothing against the actress playing Jannah but I don’t see why they didn’t just let Rose be the one to be with Finn at the end. I know people didn’t like Rose, but I think it would’ve been better to have just used her differently than just sideline her, especially since they dropped the Lando/Jannah connection (if that leak was true).

I think Finn was going to tell Rey he was Force sensitive? I feel like all of that came out of left field. I honestly feel like JJ just tried to resurrect ideas he had after TFA regardless if it fit with TLJ or not. Honestly I kind of wish they had just let Colin Trevorrow finish it instead. There were a lot of rumors his version of the script had something to do with a Stormtrooper Rebellion, which I think would concluded Finn’s arc really well.

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I think JJ might have wanted to set Finn up as being Force-sensitive in TFA (what with him being the first to see the Starkiller beam, great disturbance, etc, etc), and now he’s trying to build on it but it seems weird because TLJ totally sidestepped the idea.

EDIT: that’s exactly what you just said, isn’t it. I just finished my finals for my first semester of grad school and I did a fair amount of celebrating, my reading comp isn’t the best at the moment.

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After not posting on this site for a long while, I’m back to piss everybody off by saying I loved this movie and it’s by far my favorite of the sequel trilogy. Up front, I don’t know how anybody can read leaks to a movie and then be upset about it. Obviously if you read something and decide you don’t like it before seeing how it’s meant to be presented, then you’re setting yourself up with disappointment. I also don’t watch any trailers for anything, so outside of Palpatine returning I was going in pretty blind. So if anybody who hates this film is confused why I enjoyed 95% of this movie, those are pretty big contributors. Lastly, I may just be dumb, but I don’t know what people are talking about when they relate JJ Abrams’ style with shaky cam. I’ve seen TFA dozens of times and I cannot recall a single shot in that manner, but I can think of extreme shaky cam in every other SW movie since.

On the topic of retconning TLJ, I found nothing to actually be a retcon itself. The only thing that comes to mind is Palpatine being Snoke the whole time and Rey being a Palpatine. The Snoke part isn’t a retcon because they never revealed his backstory in the first place. It probably just comes across as a retcon because it’s obvious that Abrams and Rian Johnson have different visions for the story. Rey being a Palpatine was obvious to me the moment he showed up and said something along the lines of “… who she really is.” I thought to myself “well, I guess we’re doing that then.”

I definitely wasn’t thrilled as somebody who felt one of the few great things about TLJ was the handling of Rey and the decision to keep her as a nobody. I’ve been saying since TFA that she was never confused about who her parents were, just depressed that she was abandoned by them. Then suddenly in TLJ, Kylo tells her he knows who her parents are, but even before that moment she only ever said she wanted to see* her parents and where they are in the dark side cave. In my opinion, the identity of her heritage only came up in TLJ and TROS because everybody made a big deal about it. I will say that although I wasn’t thrilled with turning her from a nobody to a Palpatine, the way they brought it to her attention by making her suddenly burst force lightning and thinking she killed Chewie was a powerful moment among my audience. Rey’s continuing fear of her past and bloodties affecting her, and Palpatine returning in the first place makes me forgive the change in character. I don’t think I’d like Rey Palpatine if Sheev himself was completely absent, because it’d just feel pointless to have a connection.

My only other complaint for the entire movie was the Reylo kiss at the end. I’ve never understood why anybody would support a happy ending or any kind of romance between the two characters, as all we’ve been told by the last two movies is that Ben is a psychopath who slaughtered innocent Jedi students, keeps his victims’ ashes in his interrogation chamber, who lashes out at any sort of bad news and breaks everything in sight, killed his father, emotionally manipulated Rey constantly just so she would be on his side, etc. I am completely down with his “redemption” in this movie and I loved the way they did it, but I find zero romantic chemistry between the two and it felt like a “we need our biggest male and female characters to kiss at the end because love” moment. Also I don’t remember Adam Driver talking at all once he arrived to help Rey. I was expecting some really emotional final words when he saved her and she realized he was dying, but they just kissed instead and he vanished immediately after.

Despite my long critical paragraphs, I truly did love and adore this movie. It personally felt like a love letter to Star Wars as a whole, and there’s not much more I can type without turning into a novel on everything I loved.

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Lesser said:

I don’t know how anybody can read leaks to a movie and then be upset about it. Obviously if you read something and decide you don’t like it before seeing how it’s meant to be presented, then you’re setting yourself up with disappointment.

+1 for this. I really believe that my abstaining from spoilers/leaks/speculation contributed a lot to my enjoyment.

(That’s not to say that there aren’t plenty of people who went in unspoiled and still disliked it, of course.)

a trolling bantha

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Regarding Ben’s redemption and Reylo, I think the films go a long way trying to portray Kylo as a victim manipulated from birth, which I think tries to make his character more sympathetic.

I’m glad you enjoyed the film Lesser!

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RogueLeader said:

Regarding Ben’s redemption and Reylo, I think the films go a long way trying to portray Kylo as a victim manipulated from birth, which I think tries to make his character more sympathetic.

Don’t get me wrong, Ben is by far my favorite character of the sequels and maybe even the whole saga, and I have the utmost sympathy for him as I can relate to a lot of aspects and themes of his arc. I think my main issue with the Reylo kiss was that since I can’t even remember another line of dialogue from him upon arrival to face Palpatine, it felt like the kiss was robbing Adam Driver a better performance to go out on. I’m not saying dialogue is what gives a performance, but the death of Anakin in Luke’s arms has always stuck out to me as my most memorable Star Wars moment and his last words mixed with Williams’ score has sort of haunted me growing up. I’d have to see it again to have an official statement on how I feel fully I think.

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Your comment isn’t a rare one. I’ve seen a lot of people mention how Adam Driver is strangely silent after he gets to Exogol. I would be surprised if there was dialogue from Ben in that final act, but maybe in order to maintain the pace of runtime, they removed it.

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I actually wish the movie was longer, I thought I saw somewhere that the runtime was a few minutes longer the TLJ, but then I find out it’s 12 minutes shorter for some reason. Would be nice to have the final movie in the saga be the longest. Now TLJ really just sticks out to me in a weird way despite how forgiving I am of it.

Also another nitpick of the film would be the montage at the end when it went from Cloud City to Endor to Jakku. I have no clue why somebody quoted to be tying up all three trilogies would not put in a few seconds of Naboo or Coruscant. Naboo’s one of my favorite planets aesthetically so I can be bias, but there’s really no reason not to include it.

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jajje said:

Kylo/Ben does not get beaten by Rey (I presume she’s the random person you refer to) in TROS. It’s quite obvious in their encounters that he’s on top of things. He refrains from striking Rey down because he believes she’ll join him, eventually. You might not like the plot or story or characters or whatever, but please avoid spreading false claims about this movie.

Clarification: He was beaten by her in both of the PREVIOUS movies when she had no training. Whether or not they are on equal footing in TROS is, in my eyes, irrelevant since he’s already been shown to be an incompetent and nonthreatening villain and Rey is shown that she can just do whatever the plot needs her to.

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Got out of it and I’m kinda mixed. I am a JJ Abrams fan admitedly, but there so much that was so clearly rushed. It felt like he was blue balling with moments of tension, leaving me feeling nothing for the final battle scene. It’s like he watched Return of The King and said “YES that but Star Wars” and it just didn’t work. Stuff with the skywalker family I liked. Stuff with Rey (whom I adore as a character up until this film) was kinda bad. It felt like JJ was trying to jerk off the fans with her story and it just shows. I wasn’t a big fan of Endgame for similar reasons as TROS, but at least Endgame was a clean narrative that new where it was going, even it wasn’t presented that well in my opinion. Disney in general can fuck off at this point as well since they are just baiting the fans for all the franchises at this point. I liked the last five minutes of the film and maybe the scene of Ben’s memory of Han. The implacations where enough for me to say it was the one subtle thing they actually did well. Rey and Kylo’s kiss was fucking cringe, it just didn’t feel earned and their relationship never struck me as remotly romatic or sexual (curious if you all agree or disagree with this, love to hear your thoughts). Overall, it was big eh for me. Right there with Rogue One and Solo for too much fan service and not really thinking beyond the limits of the previous movies. 5.5/10

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I kinda feel like they could have made Rey have nobodies as parents and still be linked to Palpatine.

In the same way Anakin was hinted to as being created by the force, so could have Rey. They didn’t need to go the route of “Sike! She’s his granddaughter!”

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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That’s what I said over on the fan edit threads. Rey being created by Palpatine would’ve been at least more nuanced than her being his literal granddaughter. Plus, it would reflect Episode I and how Anakin was said be born from the Force.

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Well along with the whole dyad thing the Palpatine relation feels like more of this shotgun approach of any connective tissue that will hopefully be enough to tie the loose ends and handwave any logic, whatever explanation works for you! This movie feels so meddled with I cannot imagine JJ with any sincerity is truly proud of the result.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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While I’m satisfied with what we got, I agree that creating Rey instead of being blood related would’ve been a more satisfying connection to Sheev in terms of the whole saga without discrediting the chosen one thing. And while I love Sheev in this film and I’m completely okay with reviving him for this movie, I also think more people would be on board with this if they got Darth Plagueis to be the one who created Snoke to puppeteer. Even if Rey was still a Palpatine, having Plagueis replace Sheev in this movie would mirror Sheev’s role in the saga. While Sheev kept turning pawns until he got to Anakin and eventually tried but failed with his greatest apprentice’s son, Plagueis would have turned Palpatine and had Ben Solo be a pawn until he tried and failed to turn his greatest apprentice’s granddaughter.

I like to imagine they thought about that but went with Palpy instead because of general audiences being really confused.

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For all we know Snoke was actually leftover clone bodies of Plagueis. And according to the movie, Plagueis is Palpatine. And all the Sith stretching back to Darth Bane. So really, the Rule of Two was a ploy that allowed Darth Bane to jump from body to body for a thousand years.

Did anyone else pick that up? Basically Sidious’ spirit was just possessing his own, mangled corpse. He wanted Rey to turn and kill him because that would allow him to possess Rey. It’s the same reason the Emperor was unafraid when he negged on Luke to kill him in ROTJ.

But when Rey refused, he used her and Ben’s Force bond to siphon their life force into himself and heal his own body.

Did I understand all of that correctly?

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RogueLeader said:

For all we know Snoke was actually leftover clone bodies of Plagueis. And according to the movie, Plagueis is Palpatine. And all the Sith stretching back to Darth Bane. So really, the Rule of Two was a ploy that allowed Darth Bane to jump from body to body for a thousand years.

Did anyone else pick that up? Basically Sidious’ spirit was just possessing his own, mangled corpse. He wanted Rey to turn and kill him because that would allow him to possess Rey. It’s the same reason the Emperor was unafraid when he negged on Luke to kill him in ROTJ.

But when Rey refused, he used her and Ben’s Force bond to siphon their life force into himself and heal his own body.

Did I understand all of that correctly?

That’s a really interesting theory, though I can’t remember the film ever stating anything at all about Plagueis or any other Sith by name. I did get some Dark Empire vibes from the dialogue, and they did kind of imply that Palpatine is some kind of ancient being, so this could be canonized at some point. I do seem to recall though that the film implied that Palpatine was some kind of dark side convergence in the force, or even the embodiment of the dark side, implying that he too was born of it like Anakin was, but that’s a very vague implication that could go in any number of directions.

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I’ve been watching everything with subtitles on, so my mind is trained to reading a little right now and I couldn’t make out a few lines Palpatine said, but I took it as him just harnessing their life forces and taking in their spirit and power. I wasn’t thinking inside of Palpatine was the spirit of Plagueis or anything, just that they were probably implying Palpy stole his power, and that was why Sidious was the biggest baddie of the Sith. It at least ties a bit into Episode III when he keeps talking big game about cheating death, but his whole plan was just to eventually body jump into Anakin until it was ruined when he had to wear a suit to live.

I thought it would have been funny if they had gone through with Rey finishing the ritual and then Daisy Ridley would have had to act like Palpatine until Ben pulls his soul out of her or something.

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I think the idea of a ST would have worked much better, if they had introduced the idea of a hidden Sith home world from the very start, the root of evil so to speak, an anti-Ahch-To, where Palpatine and Sith from the past are sort of a physical manifestation of the dark side in the known galaxy, that has its roots on this hidden unknown planet, where the spirits of the Sith of old reside, and can still take physical form, a sort of Mordor in the Star Wars galaxy so to speak. The OT would thus be the culmination of Empire vs rebels, and the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker arc, while the ST would be a culmination of the Jedi vs Sith war, that ends with the destruction of the Sith home world, and its corrupting influence on the galaxy.

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DrDre said:

I think the idea of a ST would have worked much better, if they had introduced the idea of a hidden Sith home world from the very start, the root of evil so to speak, an anti-Ahch-To, where Palpatine and Sith from the past are sort of a physical manifestation of the dark side in the known galaxy, that has its roots on this hidden unknown planet, where the spirits of the Sith of old reside, and can still take physical form, a sort of Mordor in the Star Wars galaxy so to speak. The OT would thus be the culmination of Empire vs rebels, and the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker arc, while the ST would be a culmination of the Jedi vs Sith war, that ends with the destruction of the Sith home world, and its corrupting influence on the galaxy.

This is good. I actually would have went to see this.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Maybe when Luke is teaching Rey her first lesson we can see flashes of the Sith temple while she talks about “a dark place”

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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A film doesn’t have to make complete sense to me. I have to be able to know where it’s going and where it’s coming from, and if that works for me, I can put up with a lot.

The Rise of Skywalker is a perfect example of this to me.

Abrams is not a great storyteller, but he succeeds in giving his films an emotional and visceral flow that makes you (in the right mindset) completely willing to accept what might otherwise seem absurd on paper.

I enjoyed myself here as soon as the virtues of the people involved were allowed to come to light. The opening is extremely jarring, I agree-- There could (and I daresay, should) have been an extra ten minutes at the start of the film to ease more into the story. But the film’s insanity plateaus at a certain point, and the characters here feel like they have a far better bond and chemistry than before. That’s another thing Abrams understands, interactions between characters. Even Star Trek Into Darkness, which I did not like much at all, did this well.

I think the film had a sense of momentum. There’s a ticking clock feeling from almost the moment the story picks up, and it gives the film the feeling of constant pursuit and anxiety. After sitting through the prequels with my dad (who insisted we see all the films before going into this one), I can say that Abrams understands the worst thing a film like Star Wars can do is have a lack of momentum. Every scene feels like it serves its purpose here. I can see where many critics are coming from calling this film overstuffed, though. Many scenes are cut short and intercut in a way that it feels like a condensation of what likely could have been a much longer work as shot. Again, the first few minutes were the biggest offenders of this, but I feel like this improved as the film went on.

This film brings a lot of storylines to an emotional head. Adam Driver as Ben Solo continues to be one of the best performers in the series, and contributed to a scene which actually got me very emotional in the theater. Again, it’s a matter of the film being willing to sell us on its ideas. I think Ben’s eventual heel-turn felt very much earned, especially in the context of the previous two films. Abrams has been accused of “backpedaling” ideas from The Last Jedi. To an extent, I can see that. However, I think Ben’s arc is a very natural extension of where we saw him in the last film. He might be the standout from this whole trilogy, to me.

Rey is also improved greatly, I feel like. I didn’t dislike her in the previous films, but I feel as if the writers made sure to give her more of a personality in this film than in the others, and it really contributes to making the film more unpredictable. Her interest in training, and her interest in learning all she can from those around her, return her more to the wide-eyed curiosity and vulnerability that made her so endearing to me in The Force Awakens, and what I thought was lacking a bit in The Last Jedi. I find the people focusing on the reveal of her family name to be extremely in defiance of one of the film’s central messages. She has made herself her own person by the end of the film, and that is far more important than her heritage. Again, it was something I feel the film earned by the end of its runtime.

Finn thankfully has so much more to do here it makes it more egregious that he was so absent from The Last Jedi. The chemistry between him, Poe, and Rey is one of the things that makes the film so enjoyable through the runtime. From the outset, the three have an enjoyable rapport that injects levity but is also tested by the stakes of the story.

There is simply an energy that I feel when watching the film that makes me able to accept much more of what other critics are finding issue with. I came in wishing for an emotional experience, and I do think that’s what I received.

I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.

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Tack said:

There is simply an energy that I feel when watching the film that makes me able to accept much more of what other critics are finding issue with. I came in wishing for an emotional experience, and I do think that’s what I received.

This.

Despite the films flaws, it was an emotional experience. The music cues, the twists, etc. The film is not perfect, but damn if it doesn’t make you feel something.

“That said, there is nothing wrong with mocking prequel lovers and belittling their bad taste.” - Alderaan, 2017

MGGA (Make GOUT Great Again):
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-GOUT-Preservation-and-Restoration/id/55707

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Tack said:
There is simply an energy that I feel when watching the film that makes me able to accept much more of what other critics are finding issue with. I came in wishing for an emotional experience, and I do think that’s what I received.

Yeah, it comes down to this for me as well.

Both TFA and TROS live and breath Star Wars. I’m quite critical of Abrams outside of Star Wars, but he knocked it out of the park both times. He just gets Star Wars on an emotional and spiritual level. Both of his entries are heart-felt, genuine, adventurous and give you a sense of warmth, optimism, and happiness. I’m surprised to say this, but he cemented himself as one of the most important contributors to the franchise, as he’s the only one who made two great Star Wars movies. If you had told me that I would ever say something like this about Abrams five years ago, I would have asked you if you are out of your mind. But here I am and I couldn’t be happier. I’m just glad I can feel this way about Star Wars again.

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I might as well post what I said in the other thread here:

Omni said:

So, after thinking I hated it the first time I saw it, I now think I actually really liked this movie. It rendered the rest of the ST pointless, sure, much like the ST had rendered the saga pointless for me before in TFA. The ending is ROTJ on steroids, and since they could make Episode VII from Episode VI, they sure can Episode X this Episode IX, make Palpatine clone someone again and have him be the big bad again in XII… wow this sounds so stupid when I type it or say it out loud. It’s also a shame since it’s exactly what Rian’s film went against. Oh well.

I’m not a fan of TFA at all (that was the movie that made everything else pointless to me, by rebooting the status quo and rendering every single accomplishment that came before pointless), but I appreciated what TLJ tried to do from there, despite disagreeing with it in the most part and thinking it had a very flawed execution at times. But I definitely respected it.

TROS, on the other hand, seemingly embraces with open arms the idea that the ST is nothing more than fan fiction, and I loved it since that’s also what I consider the ST to be. I mean, most story points may as well come from YouTube theorists. The crawl seemed like something 12 year old me would come up with, much like the story. But man, it was extremely enjoyable. Sometimes it seemed like they weren’t giving a fuck, like: have Palpatine use force lightning in hundreds of ships. That was just so ridiculous, much like when he was sucking “force life” out of Rey and Ben. But who cares. It’s so stupid and ridiculous it’s fun.

And that was great for me. I wasn’t sure how IX could save the ST for me, and it did in the most fun way possible: by making everything look silly. I won’t rewatch the ST whenever I rewatch the saga, but I might rewatch it for fun every once in a while. But, man, I do feel bad for Rian. He tried to make something serious and deep out of TFA only for Abrams to literally retcon every one of the major decisions Rian took. A shame. But whatever, I’m happy.

I was surprised by how well they handled Carrie, I thought it would be much worse, and it definitely could’ve been. The one scene I think stood out was the one where she says “be optimist” or whatever. The others work very well.

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What is the difference between the ST and a hypothetical sequel to LOTR, where the ring of power in the original story was a fake, such that that another small hero, a Wobbit from Wobbiton, can go on a similar quest to destroy the ring, and Sauron for real this time?