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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 116

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Yeah, I got the general sentiment of that breakdown but the idea that “The prequels are substance without excitement” doesn’t hold up to too much scrutiny. There isn’t really a lot of substance there. There COULD have been, but Lucas wasn’t interested in working his material until it coalesced. All three of his prequel scripts were messes (Attack of the Clones wasn’t even finished when they started shooting, and by “finished” I’m pretty sure that meant “second draft”)

Unformed sketches of larger ideas aren’t the same as substance. BUT: I get what that saying is going for. I think it’s more accurate to say

Original Trilogy: Fun myth
Prequel Trilogy: Boring backstory
Sequel Trilogy: Eager Remix

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I’d say the ideas behind the prequels are substance. Too bad Lucas’ ego didn’t allow him to pass them along to someone with actual talent to develop and execute competently.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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Broom Kid said:

Prequel Trilogy: Boring backstory
Sequel Trilogy: Eager Remix

You’re in fact describing the same thing I am. The pulp of backstory and its layered but conscious mythos is dragged down by its mundane execution; substance, without motivation to be engaged. “Remix” describes re-purposing something that already existed without contributing the bulk of the whole, i.e. “lacking substance” while supplying fresh stimulation. Keeping the audience engaged although not providing much to be engaged over.

Seeking only the most natural looking colors for Star Wars '77

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DuracellEnergizer said:

I’d say the ideas behind the prequels are substance. Too bad Lucas’ ego didn’t allow him to pass them along to someone with actual talent to develop and execute competently.

From what I’ve heard, Lucas didn’t want to direct. He wanted to hand the project over to someone else with him producing, like in Empire and Jedi, but the studio insisted on making it “his project”. What they didn’t realize was the OT everyone fell in love with wasn’t what George had wanted in the first place, and it was only with his limitations and other input that such a balance between creative substance and inspiring narrative could be accomplished.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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OutboundFlight said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I’d say the ideas behind the prequels are substance. Too bad Lucas’ ego didn’t allow him to pass them along to someone with actual talent to develop and execute competently.

From what I’ve heard, Lucas didn’t want to direct. He wanted to hand the project over to someone else with him producing, like in Empire and Jedi, but the studio insisted on making it “his project”. What they didn’t realize was the OT everyone fell in love with wasn’t what George had wanted in the first place, and it was only with his limitations and other input that such a balance between creative substance and inspiring narrative could be accomplished.

Studio? It’s my understanding the prequels were all multi-million-dollar independent films.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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Wow, I never knew that. Holy cow.

PM me for links to my edits; apparently, some feel shy about this.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

OutboundFlight said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

I’d say the ideas behind the prequels are substance. Too bad Lucas’ ego didn’t allow him to pass them along to someone with actual talent to develop and execute competently.

From what I’ve heard, Lucas didn’t want to direct. He wanted to hand the project over to someone else with him producing, like in Empire and Jedi, but the studio insisted on making it “his project”. What they didn’t realize was the OT everyone fell in love with wasn’t what George had wanted in the first place, and it was only with his limitations and other input that such a balance between creative substance and inspiring narrative could be accomplished.

Studio? It’s my understanding the prequels were all multi-million-dollar independent films.

And yet it was distributed by 20th Century Fox, and consisted of tons of yes men Lucas had hired just for his project. He had the final say, but they influenced him.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars-episode-i--the-phantom-menace/steven-spielberg-ron-howard-turned-down-prequels/

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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Broom Kid said:
Bendemption is definitely happening. That was a foregone conclusion the second we found out Palpatine was back.

A leaked picture all but confirms this.

Broom Kid said:
But Reylo isn’t gonna happen. Not unless you so heavily dilute what Reylo is until it basically just means “Kylo is nice to Rey once and helps her.” But there’s nothing romantic happening between the two.

Correct.

“Anakin had those qualities so rarely seen, exuding an unmistakable confidence and yet still able to touch one’s heart in simply knowing how he was so flawed… wounded.”

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Hal 9000 said:
I do wonder to what degree Palpatine is the sincere (potentially planned all along) conclusion of the story that’s developed, or corporate decision in reaction to what was done with TLJ.

Corporate decision.

All I remember is how Abrams and Kasdan went on and on about Snoke. Palpatine was never mentioned that I can remember.

All I know is that Palpatine being back completely destroys the prophecy of the Chosen One.

I remember douche Abrams (and Kasdan) saying in the run up to TFA that that would not be touched.

This was why Snoke was not a Sith Lord and neither was Kylo.

But all that seems out the window now.

“Anakin had those qualities so rarely seen, exuding an unmistakable confidence and yet still able to touch one’s heart in simply knowing how he was so flawed… wounded.”

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Darth Hade said:

All I know is that Palpatine being back completely destroys the prophecy of the Chosen One.

So the ST did one good thing. It’s (almost) worthy of praise.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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Ahhh.

I’m guessing that you’re one of those originaltrilogy.com members that wanted it to stay the story of Luke Skywalker and not be the story of Anakin Skywalker.

That’s fine.

To each their own.

But once Lucas made that decision, and once it formed the basis of the six film story, I think it is a pretty slimy thing to crap on it.

Then again, I would expect nothing less from guys like Abrams snd companies like Disney.

“Anakin had those qualities so rarely seen, exuding an unmistakable confidence and yet still able to touch one’s heart in simply knowing how he was so flawed… wounded.”

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It’s like Snoke, isn’t it? It was dumb to introduce, dumber to undo, and even dumber to redo.

PM me for links to my edits; apparently, some feel shy about this.

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Darth Hade said:

Ahhh.

I’m guessing that you’re one of those originaltrilogy.com members that wanted it to stay the story of Luke Skywalker and not be the story of Anakin Skywalker.

Just not a fan of the chosen one/prophecy brouhaha; too deterministic for my tastes.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Darth Hade said:

Ahhh.

I’m guessing that you’re one of those originaltrilogy.com members that wanted it to stay the story of Luke Skywalker and not be the story of Anakin Skywalker.

Just not a fan of the chosen one/prophecy brouhaha; too deterministic for my tastes.

And the way it retcons the ending of ROTJ.

Anakin Skywalker “brings balance to the force” by killing the emperor, but not until after he helps murder countless millions of people. I guess it’s okay though since the prophecy was technically fulfilled. It never worked for me.

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I kind of like the idea of the Chosen One prophecy, but more so in a way that the Jedi’s obsession with prophecy is one of the flaws of their Order. Anakin being set up as a Christ-figure, only to become an anti-christ, is an interesting subversion of the chosen one trope that you rarely see. The prophecy being ambiguous and open to interpretation makes it far more interesting to me, in my opinion.

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I agree that the prophecy’s primary function in the story should have been a criticism (if not an outright condemnation) of the Jedi Order’s myopia.

On a metatextual level, we all 100% know the Chosen One prophecy was just Lucas taking the easiest storytelling route possible to make Anakin “special” in a way that further retconned the end of Return of the Jedi to be Anakin’s ultimate triumph, not Luke’s. But in the text, it could have been (and should have been) used as a means to show how the Jedi had so disappeared up their own ass and taken their eye off the ball that they never saw Anakin coming. That kind of happens, almost by accident, throughout the Prequel’s story being lurched through over the course of the trilogy. But like most good ideas embedded in the Prequels, its never fully realized, and its potential goes unfulfilled.

However, Palpatine’s returning doesn’t nullify Anakin’s sacrifice, even if it muddies the ultimate “truth” of the Prophecy. I think proving the prophecy to be somewhat bullshit isn’t even a bad thing, honestly. Prophecies suck in general, and are rarely used well in a story. Their best uses come as punchlines to tragic jokes. But Anakin’s sacrifice doesn’t cease to have meaning if Palpatine somehow survived for 30 years. The Sith were still wiped out for all intents and purposes (at least they didn’t wait a millennia before popping their head back up this time) balance to the force was more or less established, and the galaxy sustained a measure of peace for about 30 years. That’s pretty good for Star Wars. Of course, all of that is secondary to Anakin saving his kid, which is the real emotional and storytelling thrust of Return of the Jedi, and that thrust isn’t dulled or cut short by Palpatine’s reappearance in The Rise of Skywalker. Anakin still saved his kid. That hasn’t changed.

It’s always a possibility that Anakin, or his spirit, rather, will still show up at the end of this movie to assist in Palpatine’s final removal from the galaxy. At which point the prophecy is still accurate.

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Okay, I’m going to jump back into this thread for a minute because this prophecy angle could actually be really interesting.

If Palpatine survives ROTJ as it has been established, then Anakin never fulfilled the prophecy at all. This actually makes the prequels more interesting to me, since the old Jedi Order was right to be mistrusful of believing the prophecy and right to deny him training (at least at first).

Furthermore, if the prophecy is unfulfilled after ROTJ then TFA’s first lines of dialogue make a lot more sense ‘I have seen too much to ignore the despair in the galaxy. Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force.’ If the Force was ‘in balance’ at the end of ROTJ due to Anakin’s sacrifice, it would have had to fall out of balance at some point, but we are never given any definitive point at which that happened. Much better in my opinion to simply have the Force out of balance for all of this time, since the re-establishment of ‘balance’ would end the story full stop.

Finally, if Anakin didn’t destroy the Sith then there’s a good argument that he’s not the subject of the prophecy, freeing it up to apply to someone else. And this is where Episode 9 could really shine, by dethroning Anakin as the chosen one and elevating someone else (presumably Rey but maybe Kylo or Luke).

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
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NeverarGreat said:

Okay, I’m going to jump back into this thread for a minute because this prophecy angle could actually be really interesting.

If Palpatine survives ROTJ as it has been established, then Anakin never fulfilled the prophecy at all. This actually makes the prequels more interesting to me, since the old Jedi Order was right to be mistrusful of believing the prophecy and right to deny him training (at least at first).

Furthermore, if the prophecy is unfulfilled after ROTJ then TFA’s first lines of dialogue make a lot more sense ‘I have seen too much to ignore the despair in the galaxy. Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force.’ If the Force was ‘in balance’ at the end of ROTJ due to Anakin’s sacrifice, it would have had to fall out of balance at some point, but we are never given any definitive point at which that happened. Much better in my opinion to simply have the Force out of balance for all of this time, since the re-establishment of ‘balance’ would end the story full stop.

Finally, if Anakin didn’t destroy the Sith then there’s a good argument that he’s not the subject of the prophecy, freeing it up to apply to someone else. And this is where Episode 9 could really shine, by dethroning Anakin as the chosen one and elevating someone else (presumably Rey but maybe Kylo or Luke).

That doesn’t sound very respectful to Lucas’ story though, unless he intended such a direction for the ST.

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DrDre said:

NeverarGreat said:

Okay, I’m going to jump back into this thread for a minute because this prophecy angle could actually be really interesting.

If Palpatine survives ROTJ as it has been established, then Anakin never fulfilled the prophecy at all. This actually makes the prequels more interesting to me, since the old Jedi Order was right to be mistrusful of believing the prophecy and right to deny him training (at least at first).

Furthermore, if the prophecy is unfulfilled after ROTJ then TFA’s first lines of dialogue make a lot more sense ‘I have seen too much to ignore the despair in the galaxy. Without the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force.’ If the Force was ‘in balance’ at the end of ROTJ due to Anakin’s sacrifice, it would have had to fall out of balance at some point, but we are never given any definitive point at which that happened. Much better in my opinion to simply have the Force out of balance for all of this time, since the re-establishment of ‘balance’ would end the story full stop.

Finally, if Anakin didn’t destroy the Sith then there’s a good argument that he’s not the subject of the prophecy, freeing it up to apply to someone else. And this is where Episode 9 could really shine, by dethroning Anakin as the chosen one and elevating someone else (presumably Rey but maybe Kylo or Luke).

That doesn’t sound very respectful to Lucas’ story though, unless he intended such a direction for the ST.

I’d argue that actually trying to recontextualize elements of the PT would be more respectful than outright ignoring them, which is what the ST has essentially done.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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I think the question of “respect” for prior entries is kind of academic, or at least beside the point, much in the same way that authorial intent is mostly for nitpicking arguments after the fact and not really relevant to the actual consumption of the art in question.

If the story works and is given punch and emotional import as a result of recontextualizing (whether that recontextualizing is “disrespectful” or not) then that’s a positive, so far as I’m concerned. James Cameron recontextualizing the xenomorph as a giant bug colony could be argued as a “disrespectful” move considering the lovecraftian origins and nature of the creature in Alien, but most people don’t really pursue that line of thought because it doesn’t really matter whether it was or not when you’re watching the movie. Does that storytelling decision work for the movie? If so, then it’s a good call.

If the “Prophecy of the one who will bring Balance to the Force” ends up being reinterpreted (after being more or less invented as a way to recontextualize the OT in the first place) for the sake of making the Sequel Trilogy better overall, I have no problems with it at all. I don’t really care if it can be read as “disrespectful” to previous storytellers or corporate ownership. That’s not really a concern of mine, especially since I don’t work there, and I’m not one of the creators in question. But if that recontextualization doesn’t work within the story, THEN I have a problem with it.

The prophecy is like any other fictional element being used in the pursuit of expressing thematic ideas through story: If you can change it to make it work for what you’re trying to say, then change it. That’s the whole point of fiction. It’s inherently malleable. So fold, spindle, and mutilate as needed.

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Broom Kid said:

I think the question of “respect” for prior entries is kind of academic, or at least beside the point, much in the same way that authorial intent is mostly for nitpicking arguments after the fact and not really relevant to the actual consumption of the art in question.

If the story works and is given punch and emotional import as a result of recontextualizing (whether that recontextualizing is “disrespectful” or not) then that’s a positive, so far as I’m concerned. James Cameron recontextualizing the xenomorph as a giant bug colony could be argued as a “disrespectful” move considering the lovecraftian origins and nature of the creature in Alien, but most people don’t really pursue that line of thought because it doesn’t really matter whether it was or not when you’re watching the movie. Does that storytelling decision work for the movie? If so, then it’s a good call.

If the “Prophecy of the one who will bring Balance to the Force” ends up being reinterpreted (after being more or less invented as a way to recontextualize the OT in the first place) for the sake of making the Sequel Trilogy better overall, I have no problems with it at all. I don’t really care if it can be read as “disrespectful” to previous storytellers or corporate ownership. That’s not really a concern of mine, especially since I don’t work there, and I’m not one of the creators in question. But if that recontextualization doesn’t work within the story, THEN I have a problem with it.

The prophecy is like any other fictional element being used in the pursuit of expressing thematic ideas through story: If you can change it to make it work for what you’re trying to say, then change it. That’s the whole point of fiction. It’s inherently malleable. So fold, spindle, and mutilate as needed.

I don’t really agree, since Lucas is more than just “a previous storyteller”, and I think the creator of this universe has a special place. In other words if major changes are made to the context of his story, I think he should be oke with it.

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Well, if interviews with JJ and Kennedy recently are to be believed and Lucas was consulted for IX, then it is possible that he did okay it (it may have been his idea!). That may or may not be true, but it might be worth keeping an open mind until we learn more information regarding the development of the story and how much Lucas was involved. Like I’ve said before, I do wonder if there is a correlation between Lucas’ apparent involvement in the film and Palpatine’s sudden return.

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DrDre said:

I don’t really agree, since Lucas is more than just "a previous storyteller, and I think the creator of this universe has a special place. In other words if major changes are made to the context of his story, I think he should be oke with it.

I value the story’s quality over the hypothetical hurt feelings of one of its previous contributors. I don’t understand the unnecessary complicating of enjoying the story itself by introducing this metatextual and behind-the-scenes drama to the proceedings and then hinging your ability to enjoy what happened to it. There’s no reason for me to put that skin in the game, I don’t get anything extra by doing so.

The second he sold the whole thing for four billion to a completely separate corporate entity, his feelings became a tertiary concern at best. It speaks well to people at Lucasfilm that they’re still involving him, despite prior complications and hurt feelings. But if he’s fine enough with still hanging around and helping when they ask, that should probably be all there is to it from my perspective.

Again: That’s part of why stories are so amazing. Their malleability, their freedom to change shape in order to get across the ideas and feelings of the people telling them. That’s a huge part of why the fan edit community has such an important place here, too. The consideration for other creator’s feelings isn’t taken into account too much, and I don’t know that it should be, because the aim isn’t to make prior creators thrilled or happy, it’s to try and figure out how to make the story work to express the ideas YOU want it to.