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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 108

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Mocata said:

Of all the laughably bad movies in the SW series, or even just those which were released in 2017, TLJ isn’t even close.

Anyway back on topic, here’s a new Kylo Reacts video https://youtu.be/jNCbZiPaZjY

Just brilliant, that mate! 😃

(I loved the part from 1m50s - 1m55s in)

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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If the Empire Strikes Back hadn’t gotten the grace period it got, where the movies stopped being incessantly talked about within a year of their release, where audiences were allowed to discover it at their own pace years later thanks to home video, and form their own appreciations without having cheat sheets and talking points to reference, where the entirety of “social media” was the letters section of Starlog and maybe a couple fanzines with 5000 subscribers at most, nobody would be talking about it like the bonafide guaranteed all-time classic most people know it to be.

Luckily, it got to be what it was, on its own terms, and people came to recognize its qualities. If social media had been around, if lines were allowed to be drawn on those terms, and people had the capability to meme (and make money off those memes) their regurgitated opinions ad nauseum, Empire would have been just as divisive.

Who knows, maybe in 10 years someone can reboot Clerks and when the goateed chudlet in THAT remake goes on a rant about how The Last Jedi was really the best one, and all Force Awakens had was a bunch of “fanservice,” we’ll finally understand just how much of the current conversation about The Last Jedi doesn’t really have much to do with its quality as a movie at all. A lot of people just want to be rewarded for having learned how to pick a team, and play hard for it.

A lot of people don’t want to take time to think about what they just watched because there’s no incentive to do so. the incentive is in formulating a take (or stealing someone else’s as soon as you think it sounds good enough to repeat) and letting it fly. THAT gets you rewarded. That’s fandom. And that’s why when fandom got a movie as audaciously made and fundamentally altering to the canon as Empire was in its day, it didn’t know how to react. It doesn’t know what to do when confronted with something that hasn’t already been canonized.

And to clarify, this doesn’t denigrate, demean, or take away from people who have obviously thought about the film carefully, arrived at their opinion, and courteously shared it. But there’s a clear and obvious difference between someone arguing in good faith about their contrary opinion, and someone regurgitating talking points they barely even chewed before swallowing. I get why people hate having their thoughtful, considered opinions written off due to those other guys acting out and making their (mildly lucrative) stink, and I know that sucks. But there’s nothing that says you can’t distance YOURSELF from the “Fandom Menace” types voluntarily, either. You don’t have to pretend they don’t really count or aren’t really there in order to say your piece.

I think the Last Jedi is an amazingly made movie that’s almost as good as The Empire Strikes Back for a lot of the same reasons. I get why people would disagree, but like Dom, I’m sort of befuddled as to this idea that it’s poorly made. The craft on display is fairly apparent, to me.

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OutboundFlight said:

I must ask, why do some claim “The Last Jedi is one the worst films ever”? I’m not attacking this opinion by any measure… but I don’t understand it at all. As someone more negative than positive towards TLJ, I must admit it creates a fun, cohesive narrative with masterful visuals. Are you that angry about Luke? Because you might argue the same has happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda, two legends who were reduced to a life of shit. I think some moments are flat-out “bad” (Luke trying to kill Ben, etc) but are those moments really worse than Jar Jar stepping in poop?

I just don’t think it’s a good movie in any way. It ignores everything that TFA set up, deliberately subverts reasonable expectations without being original while doing so, introduces very unlikable characters (imo) out of nowhere who make terrible decisions but are presented as heroes, has no world building or explanation of TFA’s world building, the main villains are turned into a giant goofy joke, highly illogical and boring main plotline, illogical character behavior, an entire illogical side plot that ultimately adds nothing to the story, no character arcs worth caring for … I could go on and on, but I’m sure it’s all been said before. Add to that the arrogant and condescending way in which the media and the filmmaker reacted to criticisms.

Personally, as someone who likes Star Wars, but isn’t really a fan, I could probably forgive a couple of things, like Luke, but it’s just a terrible movie in every other way too imo, even as a standalone. Except, as you said, the visuals. Disney of course has masters of the visual craft at its disposal, and John Williams’ score is naturally also always on point. It’s sure somewhat enjoyable to watch a single time, but that’s it for me.

Not saying it ruined Star Wars for me or anything dramatic like that, just that I find it hard to care about this sequel storyline after it.

About Jar Jar … well, I was a kid when I was watching the movies, so maybe I’m more forgiving out of nostalgia, but even so, that was just one part of mostly decent movies imo.

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SilverWook said:

Clearly some of us do, or this site has little reason to exist anymore.

I should have phrased myself better, my mistake. I meant whether anyone still cares for the sequel trilogy. There’s of course no reason to stop caring for the OT.

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TomArrow said:

OutboundFlight said:

I must ask, why do some claim “The Last Jedi is one the worst films ever”? I’m not attacking this opinion by any measure… but I don’t understand it at all. As someone more negative than positive towards TLJ, I must admit it creates a fun, cohesive narrative with masterful visuals. Are you that angry about Luke? Because you might argue the same has happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda, two legends who were reduced to a life of shit. I think some moments are flat-out “bad” (Luke trying to kill Ben, etc) but are those moments really worse than Jar Jar stepping in poop?

It ignores everything that TFA set up, deliberately subverts reasonable expectations without being original while doing so, introduces very unlikable characters (imo) out of nowhere who make terrible decisions but are presented as heroes, has no world building or explanation of TFA’s world building, the main villains are turned into a giant goofy joke, highly illogical and boring main plotline, illogical character behavior, an entire illogical side plot that ultimately adds nothing to the story, no character arcs worth caring for […].

Perfect summary of my thoughts on TLJ.

Oh, and lets not forget the icing on the cake:

Rogue One is redundant. Just play the first mission of DARK FORCES.
‘Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.’ - SilverWook

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TomArrow said:

OutboundFlight said:

I must ask, why do some claim “The Last Jedi is one the worst films ever”? I’m not attacking this opinion by any measure… but I don’t understand it at all. As someone more negative than positive towards TLJ, I must admit it creates a fun, cohesive narrative with masterful visuals. Are you that angry about Luke? Because you might argue the same has happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda, two legends who were reduced to a life of shit. I think some moments are flat-out “bad” (Luke trying to kill Ben, etc) but are those moments really worse than Jar Jar stepping in poop?

I just don’t think it’s a good movie in any way. It ignores everything that TFA set up, deliberately subverts reasonable expectations without being original while doing so, introduces very unlikable characters (imo) out of nowhere who make terrible decisions but are presented as heroes, has no world building or explanation of TFA’s world building, the main villains are turned into a giant goofy joke, highly illogical and boring main plotline, illogical character behavior, an entire illogical side plot that ultimately adds nothing to the story, no character arcs worth caring for … I could go on and on, but I’m sure it’s all been said before. Add to that the arrogant and condescending way in which the media and the filmmaker reacted to criticisms.

Personally, as someone who likes Star Wars, but isn’t really a fan, I could probably forgive a couple of things, like Luke, but it’s just a terrible movie in every other way too imo, even as a standalone. Except, as you said, the visuals. Disney of course has masters of the visual craft at its disposal, and John Williams’ score is naturally also always on point. It’s sure somewhat enjoyable to watch a single time, but that’s it for me.

Not saying it ruined Star Wars for me or anything dramatic like that, just that I find it hard to care about this sequel storyline after it.

About Jar Jar … well, I was a kid when I was watching the movies, so maybe I’m more forgiving out of nostalgia, but even so, that was just one part of mostly decent movies imo.

And a lot of us don’t agree and still can’t understand where you are coming from.

But this is supposed to be about TROS, not rehashing TLJ. I’d be curious to see how opinions change in the next 10 years (or just after TROS is out). For a long time TESB was considered the weakest movie of that trilogy and now it is considered the best. I’m hoping that TROS has a solid ending that die hard and casual fans love. If it goes how the supposed leaks are leaning I think it has a good chance.

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yotsuya said:

TomArrow said:

OutboundFlight said:

I must ask, why do some claim “The Last Jedi is one the worst films ever”? I’m not attacking this opinion by any measure… but I don’t understand it at all. As someone more negative than positive towards TLJ, I must admit it creates a fun, cohesive narrative with masterful visuals. Are you that angry about Luke? Because you might argue the same has happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda, two legends who were reduced to a life of shit. I think some moments are flat-out “bad” (Luke trying to kill Ben, etc) but are those moments really worse than Jar Jar stepping in poop?

I just don’t think it’s a good movie in any way. It ignores everything that TFA set up, deliberately subverts reasonable expectations without being original while doing so, introduces very unlikable characters (imo) out of nowhere who make terrible decisions but are presented as heroes, has no world building or explanation of TFA’s world building, the main villains are turned into a giant goofy joke, highly illogical and boring main plotline, illogical character behavior, an entire illogical side plot that ultimately adds nothing to the story, no character arcs worth caring for … I could go on and on, but I’m sure it’s all been said before. Add to that the arrogant and condescending way in which the media and the filmmaker reacted to criticisms.

Personally, as someone who likes Star Wars, but isn’t really a fan, I could probably forgive a couple of things, like Luke, but it’s just a terrible movie in every other way too imo, even as a standalone. Except, as you said, the visuals. Disney of course has masters of the visual craft at its disposal, and John Williams’ score is naturally also always on point. It’s sure somewhat enjoyable to watch a single time, but that’s it for me.

Not saying it ruined Star Wars for me or anything dramatic like that, just that I find it hard to care about this sequel storyline after it.

About Jar Jar … well, I was a kid when I was watching the movies, so maybe I’m more forgiving out of nostalgia, but even so, that was just one part of mostly decent movies imo.

And a lot of us don’t agree and still can’t understand where you are coming from.

But this is supposed to be about TROS, not rehashing TLJ. I’d be curious to see how opinions change in the next 10 years (or just after TROS is out). For a long time TESB was considered the weakest movie of that trilogy and now it is considered the best. I’m hoping that TROS has a solid ending that die hard and casual fans love. If it goes how the supposed leaks are leaning I think it has a good chance.

TESB was never considered the weakest of the OT. For a while it was considered weaker than SW in some circles, but ROTJ was immediately seen as inferior to both with its more kid friendly approach, and its rehashing of the Death Star finale. By 1983 Lucas’ reputation was already more a toymaker, than filmmaker/artist.

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The official trailer for TROS will be (or in the UK at least)… 2m 16s long and is in the 12A category:-

https://bbfc.co.uk/releases/star-wars-rise-skywalker-filmtrailer-3
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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Haarspalter said:

TomArrow said:

OutboundFlight said:

I must ask, why do some claim “The Last Jedi is one the worst films ever”? I’m not attacking this opinion by any measure… but I don’t understand it at all. As someone more negative than positive towards TLJ, I must admit it creates a fun, cohesive narrative with masterful visuals. Are you that angry about Luke? Because you might argue the same has happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda, two legends who were reduced to a life of shit. I think some moments are flat-out “bad” (Luke trying to kill Ben, etc) but are those moments really worse than Jar Jar stepping in poop?

It ignores everything that TFA set up, deliberately subverts reasonable expectations without being original while doing so, introduces very unlikable characters (imo) out of nowhere who make terrible decisions but are presented as heroes, has no world building or explanation of TFA’s world building, the main villains are turned into a giant goofy joke, highly illogical and boring main plotline, illogical character behavior, an entire illogical side plot that ultimately adds nothing to the story, no character arcs worth caring for […].

Perfect summary of my thoughts on TLJ.

Oh, and lets not forget the icing on the cake:

Please mate - and everyone else too - as the OP states… this thread is for discussion re The Rise Of Skywalker - and not for bashing on TLJ or TFA etc (there are enough threads for that, already 😉). Thank you.
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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yotsuya said:

And a lot of us don’t agree and still can’t understand where you are coming from.

But this is supposed to be about TROS, not rehashing TLJ. I’d be curious to see how opinions change in the next 10 years (or just after TROS is out). For a long time TESB was considered the weakest movie of that trilogy and now it is considered the best. I’m hoping that TROS has a solid ending that die hard and casual fans love. If it goes how the supposed leaks are leaning I think it has a good chance.

Fair. If you enjoy the sequels, I don’t mean to try and convince you otherwise. I just didn’t think anyone would, that’s all. 😃 And now I should really stop derailing this thread.

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DrDre said:

TESB was never considered the weakest of the OT. For a while it was considered weaker than SW in some circles, but ROTJ was immediately seen as inferior to both with its more kid friendly approach, and its rehashing of the Death Star finale. By 1983 Lucas’ reputation was already more a toymaker, than filmmaker/artist.

It’s hard to say it was “never” considered that. People did consider it that. Probably not as many, comparatively, but people who enjoyed Star Wars for being exuberant fun as opposed to being substantive mythology tended to enjoy Return of the Jedi more than Empire Strikes Back. Again, the narratives made popular by the spread of the internet tend to make accurate judgment of what people “back then” felt and in what numbers sort of difficult. Everyone’s kind of working off anecdotal information, magazine letters-to-the-editor, and in some cases, really early internet BBS information.

In fact, the narrative that ROTJ was always the “stupid” one with a “bunch of muppets” not coincidentally got a lot of run as soon as a certain mid-90s movie came out espousing that otherwise “edgy” opinion, taken from comic book conventions. And the anti-ewok stance really doesn’t make much sense in retrospect, especially when looking from today’s POV. I struggle to understand how people could honestly make the argument that ewoks don’t really fit into Star Wars, and when they show up in Rise of Skywalker and everyone goes nuts with happiness about having them there on Endor, it’ll be even harder to make that argument, I think.

There was, and still is, a lot of weirdly placed shame regarding the ewoks, and a lot of fans - and again, I think this is where a division between individual fans of a thing and a larger group fandom really shows itself - took a lot of pleasure in widening that silly divide for the sake of having points to make in online arguments. It’s one of the first and biggest examples of how people believed Star Wars needed to be something OTHER than what it was (usually child-like or child-ish) in order to be TRULY “Star Wars.” The idea that the most merchandised, most popular thing in American culture was “debasing” itself by having cute critters in the movie that could become cute toys people could buy doesn’t really make any sense on the face of it, especially considering what came before and certainly considering what came afterwards. It only made sense if you honestly believed cute things for children were inherently BENEATH Star Wars, and they’re not.

I myself believe Return of the Jedi to be the weakest of the three OT movies, but not because of its more open return to childish conventions, and certainly not because of the Ewoks, who I regard less as “teddy bears” and more like a whole forest full of furry Artoo Detoos with sharp sticks. A lot of the filmmaking is just sub-par in comparison to the prior two films, and there are a lot of shortcuts being taken both on the page and in front of the camera. I don’t think it’s a bad movie. But I also have a hard time arguing against its crowdpleasing nature, because when it wants to make you excited, it does so, and does it well - mostly in the last 20 minutes.

I think much of the reception for Rise of Skywalker will come down to how well it’s executed (obviously) and how prepared audiences within the fandom (general audiences will probably like it just fine no matter what, they always tend to be more appreciative than the fandom is, even at its most exuberant) to accept Star Wars for what it is, and not for what they want it to be. Especially since it seems very much like, as with Force Awakens, Abrams and his creative partners looked at early drafts of OT material and used that as a starting point. The Rise Of Skywalker is going to play very much like a what-if scenario, as in “What if JJ Abrams got to develop the abandoned Return of the Jedi draft all the way to completion, and adapted his own characters as well as some old ones, into that story”

And despite all the drama and mythology right up front, it’s a guarantee this movie is going to be funny in a way that will feel like it’s primarily “for the kids,” like Jedi often was, and if anything is going to force angry reactions from certain circles of the fandom, it’s THAT reminder.

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Let’s not derail this thread into talking about The Last Jedi again. Ultimately for me, I really like the Sequel Trilogy, and I can’t wait for The Rise of Skywalker, but I completely lost faith and trust in the fanbase after the horrific behaviors that came out of hating The Last Jedi and disgusting words. It’s alright to have your own opinion on something, just don’t affect someone else’s enjoyment. This is why I can’t seem to side with fans anymore based on the toxicity.

Noah Lawson

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DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

TomArrow said:

OutboundFlight said:

I must ask, why do some claim “The Last Jedi is one the worst films ever”? I’m not attacking this opinion by any measure… but I don’t understand it at all. As someone more negative than positive towards TLJ, I must admit it creates a fun, cohesive narrative with masterful visuals. Are you that angry about Luke? Because you might argue the same has happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda, two legends who were reduced to a life of shit. I think some moments are flat-out “bad” (Luke trying to kill Ben, etc) but are those moments really worse than Jar Jar stepping in poop?

I just don’t think it’s a good movie in any way. It ignores everything that TFA set up, deliberately subverts reasonable expectations without being original while doing so, introduces very unlikable characters (imo) out of nowhere who make terrible decisions but are presented as heroes, has no world building or explanation of TFA’s world building, the main villains are turned into a giant goofy joke, highly illogical and boring main plotline, illogical character behavior, an entire illogical side plot that ultimately adds nothing to the story, no character arcs worth caring for … I could go on and on, but I’m sure it’s all been said before. Add to that the arrogant and condescending way in which the media and the filmmaker reacted to criticisms.

Personally, as someone who likes Star Wars, but isn’t really a fan, I could probably forgive a couple of things, like Luke, but it’s just a terrible movie in every other way too imo, even as a standalone. Except, as you said, the visuals. Disney of course has masters of the visual craft at its disposal, and John Williams’ score is naturally also always on point. It’s sure somewhat enjoyable to watch a single time, but that’s it for me.

Not saying it ruined Star Wars for me or anything dramatic like that, just that I find it hard to care about this sequel storyline after it.

About Jar Jar … well, I was a kid when I was watching the movies, so maybe I’m more forgiving out of nostalgia, but even so, that was just one part of mostly decent movies imo.

And a lot of us don’t agree and still can’t understand where you are coming from.

But this is supposed to be about TROS, not rehashing TLJ. I’d be curious to see how opinions change in the next 10 years (or just after TROS is out). For a long time TESB was considered the weakest movie of that trilogy and now it is considered the best. I’m hoping that TROS has a solid ending that die hard and casual fans love. If it goes how the supposed leaks are leaning I think it has a good chance.

TESB was never considered the weakest of the OT. For a while it was considered weaker than SW in some circles, but ROTJ was immediately seen as inferior to both with its more kid friendly approach, and its rehashing of the Death Star finale. By 1983 Lucas’ reputation was already more a toymaker, than filmmaker/artist.

Not in my circles buddy. For years none of use liked TESB as much as ANH or ROTJ. We just didn’t. And we were not alone. I have found plenty documenting that this was widespread. The fanboys in 1980 weren’t too thrilled with TESB. It had some great stuff, but it wasn’t ANH. When ROTJ came out, that was more like ANH. Today my opinion is very different and I’m not really in touch with many people from those days to check out their current opinions of the films. My point is that opinions of films do not always remain the same and some opinions fade into the background of history.

We’ve been seeing this exact thing with the prequels. A new generation is here that feels differently about it than many of the older generation. They aren’t seeing some of the things as flaws. I have never seen the Ewoks as a flaw. I’ve always loved the dichotomy of their looks vs. their bravery and ferocity. And the 2nd Death Star only makes sense. If you develop a superweapon and your enemies destroy it, you build a bigger one. Not only is that realistic, but very in keeping with Flash Gordon.

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My point is that opinions of films do not always remain the same and some opinions fade into the background of history.

True, but one should consider that the pendulum can swing both ways. It’s not just negative opinions, that can fade fade into the background of history. It’s the positive as well.

And the 2nd Death Star only makes sense. If you develop a superweapon and your enemies destroy it, you build a bigger one. Not only is that realistic, but very in keeping with Flash Gordon.

Realism does not necessarily equate to a good story. I’m hoping TROS will not go for realism, but bring Star Wars back to its mythic roots.

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Apologies for derailing the thread with my comment on the fandom response to TLJ.

I think ROTJ and TROS will feel very different. By ROTJ, Lucas was tired of making Star Wars and wanted to wrap everything into a neat little bow and be done. Hence why it feels (to me at least) less like a proper follow-up and more like a quick happy conclusion. It is still a great movie (my 4th favorite) but not on par with what came before. They probably could have drawn out the plotlines set up by Empire, with a third film all about saving Han and the fourth film dealing with Vader, with further films involving Luke’s twin.

TROS, on the other hand, feels like its finally getting in the new direction that RJ wanted when he killed off Snoke. In a way, it feels like the inverse of the OT, where TFA and TLJ were all about following the formula and later subverting it, TROS is finally telling a new story.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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Haarspalter said:

Perfect summary of my thoughts on TLJ.

Oh, and lets not forget the icing on the cake:

Luke regressing to a farm boy and Rey confronting her femininity, plus it is weird. Star Wars is weird. I love this moment!

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I love the milking scene, too. Excellent stuff.

I really like that TLJ had something to say, where I felt TFA didn’t.

I think TFA nailed the ‘feeling’ and language of a SW movie but lacked mythic substance. I felt TLJ inverted this somewhat.

All that is to lead up to this: I’d hope TROS maintains the moviemaking sensibilities of TFA (but with a willingness to slow the fuck down some of the time) and the mythic substance of TLJ.

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Agreed! Honestly I think there was something there in TFA, in particular, the symbolism of masks and identity, but it kind of gets overshadowed by its similarities with ANH (which might’ve been a necessary evil to get general audiences reacquainted with the franchise, in their view). But maybe JJ won’t feel as bound by that with IX.

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I’m hoping that TROS will take the two previous stories and add more meaning and show us the weave of the story that we didn’t notice when the other movies came out. We know Abrams wants to do that to the saga, but I think most of the story will be about the trilogy and the new characters.

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Hal 9000 said:

I love the milking scene, too. Excellent stuff.

I really like that TLJ had something to say, where I felt TFA didn’t.

I think TFA nailed the ‘feeling’ and language of a SW movie but lacked mythic substance. I felt TLJ inverted this somewhat.

All that is to lead up to this: I’d hope TROS maintains the moviemaking sensibilities of TFA (but with a willingness to slow the fuck down some of the time) and the mythic substance of TLJ.

Couldn’t have said any better.

Noah Lawson

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It seems like the last couple weeks have essentially gotten us to a pretty solid place in terms of basic plotting and motivation for the movie.

The most intriguing thing to me, honestly, is the idea that the movie might not start with the main title and scroll, but a flashback following the “A long time ago” card, and then smash cut to the main title at the end of the flashback, like Rogue One.

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Broom Kid said:

It seems like the last couple weeks have essentially gotten us to a pretty solid place in terms of basic plotting and motivation for the movie.

The most intriguing thing to me, honestly, is the idea that the movie might not start with the main title and scroll, but a flashback following the “A long time ago” card, and then smash cut to the main title at the end of the flashback, like Rogue One.

Interesting idea. I wouldn’t bet on it (nor would I bet on anything in the so-called “plot leaks”), but that might be cool if done well.

Though I can hear the entire theater audience’s audibly confused utterance of “what?!” when that happens and it’s annoying me already.

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I’m feeling comfy that most of the general stuff we’ve heard in the last couple weeks is more or less right, myself. It’s weird as hell in a lot of ways, but weird in ways that sound pretty likely, considering the motivations of the characters, and the history of the people in control behind the scenes. I’m certain a good third of it is off somehow, with some of that being completely wrong and/or deleted from earlier in production, but the big bullet points of who is doing what and why seem sound, to me.

I honestly think a opening night screening where people are primed to let out that huge cheer for the main title card and then it… doesn’t come? That could be great.