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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 105

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pleasehello said:

act on instinct said:

I liked a few things, namely the scope. Felt like that grandeur has been missing after all the emphasis on real sets and practical effects, I want the huge CGI festival or whatever that was, make the worlds big and spectacular again it’s 2019 nobody cares anymore as long as it’s not cg faces. If TRoS is to be a grand finale I want it to be big.

I care. Bigger is not necessarily better. In my opinion, the simple imagery of the single Star Destroyer flyover at the beginning of Star Wars is grander and more intimidating that 100 Star Destroyers in a lightning storm.

Obviously it’s going to be a big finale, but the overuse of big bombastic effects whether CGI or otherwise becomes boring really quickly.

Fully understand, and I agree with the point on the Star Destroyers, felt the same about Starkiller. Still, I mean more set extension type stuff, not so much Michael Bay explosions in my face, but vivid living alien worlds now that they won’t look as uncanny like the CGI of 2002. I think because of the prequels the sequels resisted going too far out in that direction at first and it held TFA back from being a true new generation Star Wars, that’s what I’m looking for.

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 (Edited)

Seems silly to make any sort of judgement call at this point (but that’s Star Wars fans for you, cynical til the end). For instance, while something like a giant epic weather-infused duel obviously brings to mind the disappointments of ROTS, that doesn’t mean that just because something is bigger means it’s necessarily worse (I believe there was a way they could have done that duel on Mustafar and have it not be shit). I do believe there is a way to go big and crazy and still have quality. We’ll only know in December.

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nl0428 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

nl0428 said:

I just don’t understand why fans really want cloning to be brought back into the franchise. The cloning stories that the old expanded universe told involving Palpatine, Luke and Starkiller were just so ridiculous and I would go as far to say they were awful. It just felt like fan service at a ridiculous new height and power. I do believe that J.J. Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else at Lucasfilm are way too smart to think of and include an idea of Rey fighting a Dark Side clone of herself. I honestly don’t know why fans would want to see something as bonkers and nonsensical as this idea sounds to me.

Why would cloning be so weird? There was a galaxy-spanning clone war, so why is it so silly that a Sith obsessed with eternal life would dabble in cloning. That’s not to say I think Rey should be a clone (I think that would be unnecessary), but I don’t get why its inclusion in the EU is often perceived so negatively.

It’s because the ideas and usages of cloning became so far fetched and crazy to the point where writers were using it because they may have thought it would’ve been cool. Almost like something a kid would do when playing with their toys. To me, the usages of cloning that was done in the old expanded universe was really silly and didn’t feel like Star Wars.

As for the Clone Wars, it made sense for that considering how Palpatine was in control of the facility and the war. Plus, there’s a reason why it was called the Clone Wars. But I do think that involving Jango and Boba Fett within the cloning in the Prequels was quite unnecessary, but that’s a whole other discussion.

TBH I don’t really care if people like the old cloning stories or not, it’s just that I never get a clear reason as to why exactly it “didn’t feel like Star Wars”. Overused, cliched, gimmicky, fine, I don’t see it that way, but I understand those arguments. But how it’s not Star Wars-y is just weird to me especially when an entire era in SW is based on cloning. And how is cloning a whole army OK, but Palpatine having a few backups is suddenly “far fetched”. A cop-out, maybe, a convenient excuse to bring him back, sure, but why is this so crazy compared to the other things we’ve seen/read in SW? If anything its a rather mundane Sci-Fi trope compared to the magic and mysticism that we’ve grown accustomed to in the franchise.

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Too many Star Wars fans forget the pulp serial origins of the series. Lucas went in a much more serious direction at the outset, but it still had that pulpy veneer on it and that is where Ewoks and Gungans came from. The old Marvel comics really nailed that aspect of it. That may be why I am so forgiving of some things. I loved those and enjoy some good pulp and camp… in small doses.

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But I begin to see how things could play out in this film. I have this gut feeling that one key aspect of this is going to be the return of Ben Solo with his grandfather’s blue saber.

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I’m just hoping C-3PO’s little accident with a battle droid’s body from AOTC doesn’t become a plot point in this movie.

Could… could you imagine the unique frustration I would feel taking that in on opening day?

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Hal 9000 said:

I’m just hoping C-3PO’s little accident with a battle droid’s body from AOTC doesn’t become a plot point in this movie.

Could… could you imagine the unique frustration I would feel taking that in on opening day?

You would not be alone in that! 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Hal 9000 said:

I’m just hoping C-3PO’s little accident with a battle droid’s body from AOTC doesn’t become a plot point in this movie.

Could… could you imagine the unique frustration I would feel taking that in on opening day?

Please no, I‘d be quite beside myself. Symbolism and imagery are fun, but this slapstick or Wicket’s/JarJar‘s antics were terribly out of place.

“You want to sell me Death sticks” -Obi-Vod Kanobi

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If he doesn’t say ‘you probably didn’t recognize me because of the red eyes’ I’m out.

Also the red eyes clearly symbolize the fruition of Sidious’s generations-long plan to transfer his consciousness into a machine to achieve immortality.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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Hal 9000 said:

I’m just hoping C-3PO’s little accident with a battle droid’s body from AOTC doesn’t become a plot point in this movie.

Could… could you imagine the unique frustration I would feel taking that in on opening day?

Don’t say things like this. I couldn’t handle that, especially if the story hinges on it so much that it can’t be effectively cut out of the movie.

a trolling bantha

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I was trying to think what something like that would remind me of… and it was the whales in the Rebels finale.

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“Who would suspect the p-p-poor c-c-cowardly p-protocol droid?”

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Honestly if they made 3PO’s Battle Droid antics from AOTC relevant to IX, I think it would be Lucasfilm’s way of taking ownership of all Star Wars, good and bad. Don’t like the worst of the saga? Well now you can’t ignore it! I know people would hate it but honestly I would admire their balls if that ends up being true.

But that probably won’t be the case so I wouldn’t worry about it.

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 (Edited)

The 3PO thing is really messing with my head. On the one hand, he’s one of my favorite characters and the idea of him going into a kill mode of some sort is inherently funny to me. On the other hand, it is impossible to forget what happened to him in AOTC, easily the worst moment of the saga and very much unfunny. So I don’t know how to feel. Ultimately I guess it’s about execution.

I will say, if TROS turns out to be as balls to the wall as they seem to be promising, ROTJ will feel like a real outlier in this saga in terms of go-for-broke trilogy cappers (quality aside).

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3PO’s eyes didn’t turn red when his head got plugged into the battle droid originally, so I don’t think it is necessarily that. BUT, I like the idea of taking a weaker element/segment of a story, and recontextualizing it in order make it add benefit to the overall narrative. Again, I would be very surprised if JJ, of all people, was like, “That’s a great idea!”

Anyway, 3PO is overdue for some antics like he got in the other trilogies, so I’m just gonna try and enjoy whatever they decide to go with!

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ZkinandBonez said:

nl0428 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

nl0428 said:

I just don’t understand why fans really want cloning to be brought back into the franchise. The cloning stories that the old expanded universe told involving Palpatine, Luke and Starkiller were just so ridiculous and I would go as far to say they were awful. It just felt like fan service at a ridiculous new height and power. I do believe that J.J. Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else at Lucasfilm are way too smart to think of and include an idea of Rey fighting a Dark Side clone of herself. I honestly don’t know why fans would want to see something as bonkers and nonsensical as this idea sounds to me.

Why would cloning be so weird? There was a galaxy-spanning clone war, so why is it so silly that a Sith obsessed with eternal life would dabble in cloning. That’s not to say I think Rey should be a clone (I think that would be unnecessary), but I don’t get why its inclusion in the EU is often perceived so negatively.

It’s because the ideas and usages of cloning became so far fetched and crazy to the point where writers were using it because they may have thought it would’ve been cool. Almost like something a kid would do when playing with their toys. To me, the usages of cloning that was done in the old expanded universe was really silly and didn’t feel like Star Wars.

As for the Clone Wars, it made sense for that considering how Palpatine was in control of the facility and the war. Plus, there’s a reason why it was called the Clone Wars. But I do think that involving Jango and Boba Fett within the cloning in the Prequels was quite unnecessary, but that’s a whole other discussion.

TBH I don’t really care if people like the old cloning stories or not, it’s just that I never get a clear reason as to why exactly it “didn’t feel like Star Wars”. Overused, cliched, gimmicky, fine, I don’t see it that way, but I understand those arguments. But how it’s not Star Wars-y is just weird to me especially when an entire era in SW is based on cloning. And how is cloning a whole army OK, but Palpatine having a few backups is suddenly “far fetched”. A cop-out, maybe, a convenient excuse to bring him back, sure, but why is this so crazy compared to the other things we’ve seen/read in SW? If anything its a rather mundane Sci-Fi trope compared to the magic and mysticism that we’ve grown accustomed to in the franchise.

The reason why it began not feeling like Star Wars was because the story was going into outrageous directions that felt like the writers of the stories were not understanding what made Star Wars the special franchise it is. It’s simular as to what happened with Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. Jack Thorne, the playwright of the Cursed Child, was going into far fetched directions that made people feel like he didn’t have a good grip, understanding, and knowledge of what made the series so great and how J.K. Rowling made it worked. The same goes here. I’m not saying that George Lucas is the only person who understands the franchise and everyone else doesn’t, (even though I sometimes get the feeling George doesn’t understand his series based on some of the questionable decisions he made with the Special Editions and the Prequels) but the writers of those mentioned Legends stories were going into paths that you could see a kid playing with toys or Star Wars games would’ve made the choice to do because they thought it would be “cool.” Let’s not forget that there was a comic series about zombie Gungans and that the droid who’s motivator blew up in A New Hope had the Force in old Legends comics.

Also, on a side note, while Star Wars has many Sci-Fi elements found within the Galaxy, I would classify the franchise as being more along the lines of fantasy due to its storytelling, characters and mythology.

Noah Lawson

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OutboundFlight said:

My theory is 3PO gets lost in the Death Star wreckage, finds Palpatine’s darkside spirit, and he uses the droid as a host until he finds Rey.

As much as I really don’t like that idea, you cannot deny that sounds a lot like what Voldemort did in Harry Potter. After he lost all his powers, he had to survive off of different mediums before being reborn into a new body in the Goblet of Fire. This here sounds like how he shared Quirrell’s body by having his face on the back of his head.

Noah Lawson

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 (Edited)

nl0428 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

nl0428 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

nl0428 said:

I just don’t understand why fans really want cloning to be brought back into the franchise. The cloning stories that the old expanded universe told involving Palpatine, Luke and Starkiller were just so ridiculous and I would go as far to say they were awful. It just felt like fan service at a ridiculous new height and power. I do believe that J.J. Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else at Lucasfilm are way too smart to think of and include an idea of Rey fighting a Dark Side clone of herself. I honestly don’t know why fans would want to see something as bonkers and nonsensical as this idea sounds to me.

Why would cloning be so weird? There was a galaxy-spanning clone war, so why is it so silly that a Sith obsessed with eternal life would dabble in cloning. That’s not to say I think Rey should be a clone (I think that would be unnecessary), but I don’t get why its inclusion in the EU is often perceived so negatively.

It’s because the ideas and usages of cloning became so far fetched and crazy to the point where writers were using it because they may have thought it would’ve been cool. Almost like something a kid would do when playing with their toys. To me, the usages of cloning that was done in the old expanded universe was really silly and didn’t feel like Star Wars.

As for the Clone Wars, it made sense for that considering how Palpatine was in control of the facility and the war. Plus, there’s a reason why it was called the Clone Wars. But I do think that involving Jango and Boba Fett within the cloning in the Prequels was quite unnecessary, but that’s a whole other discussion.

TBH I don’t really care if people like the old cloning stories or not, it’s just that I never get a clear reason as to why exactly it “didn’t feel like Star Wars”. Overused, cliched, gimmicky, fine, I don’t see it that way, but I understand those arguments. But how it’s not Star Wars-y is just weird to me especially when an entire era in SW is based on cloning. And how is cloning a whole army OK, but Palpatine having a few backups is suddenly “far fetched”. A cop-out, maybe, a convenient excuse to bring him back, sure, but why is this so crazy compared to the other things we’ve seen/read in SW? If anything its a rather mundane Sci-Fi trope compared to the magic and mysticism that we’ve grown accustomed to in the franchise.

The reason why it began not feeling like Star Wars was because the story was going into outrageous directions that felt like the writers of the stories were not understanding what made Star Wars the special franchise it is. It’s simular as to what happened with Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. Jack Thorne, the playwright of the Cursed Child, was going into far fetched directions that made people feel like he didn’t have a good grip, understanding, and knowledge of what made the series so great and how J.K. Rowling made it worked. The same goes here. I’m not saying that George Lucas is the only person who understands the franchise and everyone else doesn’t, (even though I sometimes get the feeling George doesn’t understand his series based on some of the questionable decisions he made with the Special Editions and the Prequels) but the writers of those mentioned Legends stories were going into paths that you could see a kid playing with toys or Star Wars games would’ve made the choice to do because they thought it would be “cool.”

I know absolutely nothing about Harry Potter, so I can’t really say I either agree or disagree here.

Though I do feel that the whole 'child with his toys" argument could be used for pretty much any SW films, especially ANH. I mean, the DS when described to someone who isn’t a SW fan does sound like something a seven year old would come up with. Same goes for a lot of the twists, coincidences, etc. of SW. I mean, isn’t this craziness kinda why we love these films? And its not like this craziness isn’t accompanied by good storytelling, character development, etc.

nl0428 said:

Let’s not forget that there was a comic series about zombie Gungans and that the droid who’s motivator blew up in A New Hope had the Force in old Legends comics.

Skippy the Jedi Droid was a joke-comic that was never canon in the first place. It’s more in the line with official parody series like Tag and Bink. Actually, most of the Star Wars Tales comic series was non-canon.

The zombie thing however is an entirely different discussion. However, I’m not saying that there aren’t ideas that don’t seem to fit the franchise, I just don’t see clones as ever being part of that.

nl0428 said:

Also, on a side note, while Star Wars has many Sci-Fi elements found within the Galaxy, I would classify the franchise as being more along the lines of fantasy due to its storytelling, characters and mythology.

I completely agree with that viewpoint. It was in no way my intention to imply that I disapproved the fantasy elements of SW, quite the contrary in fact. What I did mean however, was that as a fantasy series it has both in- and out-side of the movies done some pretty crazy/weird stuff, so my suspension of disbelief isn’t exactly limited when it comes to SW content. Hence, as I said, cloning is rather mundane in comparison, and SW is also Sci-Fi, so I don’t get how cloning can “go too far”, especially after they’ve already grown an entire army (in the movies no less). Palpatine transferring his soul/spirit/ghost (whatever you want to call it) into a clone is pretty much the most Star Wars-y thing I can imagine as it blends both fantasy and Sci-Fi in a very pulpy manner. Admittedly though, I’m not too sure how I’d think of it in a movie, but for a comic series I think it works just fine. So it’ll be quite interesting to see what actually transpires in TROS later this year, though post Endgame, I can’t say I’ll be too surprised if they end up doing something similar to Dark Empire.

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ZkinandBonez said:

Though I do feel that the whole 'child with his toys" argument could be used for pretty much any SW films, especially ANH. I mean, the DS when described to someone who isn’t a SW fan does sound like something a seven year old would come up with. Same goes for a lot of the twists, coincidences, etc. of SW. I mean, isn’t this craziness kinda why we love these films? And its not like this craziness isn’t accompanied by good storytelling, character development, etc.

I understand what you are saying, and like how people like J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson were once those kids and got the opportunity to make a Star Wars movie. However, those aforementioned Legends stories feel more like they are from the brain of a child, rather than the heart of a child. Not to go off topic, but a perfect example of this would be Yoda having a lightsaber. A decision that the creator himself even made that contradicts everything of what made Yoda the incredible character he has been for almost forty years.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

My theory is 3PO gets lost in the Death Star wreckage, finds Palpatine’s darkside spirit, and he uses the droid as a host until he finds Rey.

As much as I really don’t like that idea, you cannot deny that sounds a lot like what Voldemort did in Harry Potter. After he lost all his powers, he had to survive off of different mediums before being reborn into a new body in the Goblet of Fire. This here sounds like how he shared Quirrell’s body by having his face on the back of his head.

Palpatine could lack a body period. He is just a swirl of energy binding to characters and “enhancing” their powers, like Venom in Spider-Man 3.

That being said, we are probably drastically overthinking this. Threepio could just be in “low power mode”, lol. Time to sell more toys!

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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It’d be pretty funny if they did the Dark Empire clones of the Emperor thing. When I was a kid and the sequels were presumably going to happen after the prequels, I always thought that’s what the story was going to be (someone must have heard/read about the Dark Empire plot and told me).