Sign In

Episode IX - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 64

Author
Time

Midichlorians were not there “since the first draft.” And over-explaining everything is not the only way to tell an “intelligent” story.

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

Midi-chlorians were not there “since the first draft.” And over-explaining everything is not the only way to tell an “intelligent” story.

Are you sure? Weren’t they at least there early on, if not the first draft? I don’t think Midi-Chlorians are an over explanation. I think they enrich our understanding of the Force. Plus if Lucas was able to make the sequel trilogy, then they also serve as a setup.

I guess you could call me a hipster; I think the prequels are better than the originals, and I think the Beach Boys are better than the Beatles.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

Midi-chlorians were not there “since the first draft.” And over-explaining everything is not the only way to tell an “intelligent” story.

Are you sure? Weren’t they at least there early on, if not the first draft?

No. Funny enough, this was just discussed on the site very recently: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Proof-of-Lucas-revisionism-in-Rinzlers-making-of-book/id/66017

I don’t think Midi-Chlorians are an over explanation. I think they enrich our understanding of the Force. Plus if Lucas was able to make the sequel trilogy, then they also serve as a setup.

The argument is that the force represents, amongst other things, life itself. To explore so deeply as you want the literal “what” and “how” and “why” of the force would be like asking for the film to give a definitive meaning of life. The force was designed as a mystical energy that is inherently unknowable. It is up to the characters to decide what to do with it and how they will use, much as it is up to them to decide what they will do will their lives and what choices they will make (and, of course, which side to be on). To pin down what the force is would be to simplify and demystify it.

Personally, I don’t have as big an issue with the midichlorians as presented in the PT as many do (though I don’t love it). But I would not be okay with what you seem to have wanted (and what Lucas debatable would or would not have done), which would have been to take the explaining to a whole other level.

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

DominicCobb said:

Midi-chlorians were not there “since the first draft.” And over-explaining everything is not the only way to tell an “intelligent” story.

Are you sure? Weren’t they at least there early on, if not the first draft?

No. Funny enough, this was just discussed on the site very recently: https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Proof-of-Lucas-revisionism-in-Rinzlers-making-of-book/id/66017

I’ll take your word for it, but that link didn’t really make sense to me. Do you have maybe a quick quote from that thread I could read instead?

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

I don’t think Midi-Chlorians are an over explanation. I think they enrich our understanding of the Force. Plus if Lucas was able to make the sequel trilogy, then they also serve as a setup.

The argument is that the force represents, amongst other things, life itself. To explore so deeply as you want the literal “what” and “how” and “why” of the force would be like asking for the film to give a definitive meaning of life. The force was designed as a mystical energy that is inherently unknowable. It is up to the characters to decide what to do with it and how they will use, much as it is up to them to decide what they will do will their lives and what choices they will make (and, of course, which side to be on). To pin down what the force is would be to simplify and demystify it.

That’s the point tho. If there was an order of people who used the Force and studied it for over a thousand years, they figured out what it was. I don’t think the Force is life necessarily, I think it’s supposed to be a by-product of life. It’s an energy that’s given off by living cells (Midi-Chlorians). Jedi/Sith harness that energy for their own use. That’s all we’re saying here. The Force isn’t life, and it’s not a religion. Outsiders call the Jedi a religion. It’s not, it’s a real practice. I think people who meditate can relate. Meditation is considered a religious practice, but the people who do it know that’s it’s really not, it’s a great mind hack to ease your temper and stress.

DominicCobb said:

Personally, I don’t have as big an issue with the midichlorians as presented in the PT as many do (though I don’t love it). But I would not be okay with what you seem to have wanted (and what Lucas debatable would or would not have done), which would have been to take the explaining to a whole other level.

Lol I get where you’re coming from. But I digress: it’s a newer and more interesting trilogy than what we’re getting now. I think the real reason they didn’t go for it was because George’s trilogy probably officially ended the Star Wars story. Wasn’t Star Wars a story told in a Journal by the Whills in the first place? If they’re gone, then there’s no one left to keep telling us the stories.

I guess you could call me a hipster; I think the prequels are better than the originals, and I think the Beach Boys are better than the Beatles.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I’m glad you like that quote! I would definitely suggest checking out the Tao Te Ching, if you’re into that kind of stuff. It obviously can apply to life, but you can apply to Star Wars and the Force, too.

Regarding the midi-chlorian quote:

The quote from the 70s, as it is in Rinzler’s The Making of Star Wars goes:

”It is said certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells.”

But, George had Rinzler edit that quote when he wrote his book, so the original quote would’ve been like this.

”It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different.”

So no, midi-chlordans was not an original idea.

The Journal of the Whills was originally a framing device for the early drafts of Star Wars, but George didn’t really expound on what the Whills were. His original idea was that R2 at some point in the future would recount these tales to a Whill, who I guess was a physical being that kept a journal. Which, to me, makes me wonder how that would fit with the whole microscopic world George was talking about in the more recent interview with James Cameron.

And don’t worry man, I have a feeling future films or shows will dive deeper into the Force, and maybe even IX will, who knows? There’s so much content ahead, the Force will inevitably be explored more.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

RogueLeader said:

I’m glad you like that quote! I would definitely suggest checking out the Tao Te Ching, if you’re into that kind of stuff. It obviously can apply to life, but you can apply to Star Wars and the Force, too.

I definitely just might! I’ve always loved Buddhist philosophy. But I’ve always kinda been hesitant to indulge myself in it because I find that I can figure all their teachings out if I just practice meditation regularly. I can kinda develop my own philosophy about life too.

RogueLeader said:

Regarding the midi-chlorian quote:

The quote from the 70s, as it is in Rinzler’s The Making of Star Wars goes:

”It is said certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different; they have more midi-chlorians in their cells.”

But, George had Rinzler edit that quote when he wrote his book, so the original quote would’ve been like this.

”It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different.”

So no, midi-chlordans was not an original idea.

Are you sure tho? I mean, don’t get me wrong, but the idea is still there, he just hadn’t come up with a word for it yet.

Thanks for the quote btw!!

RogueLeader said:

The Journal of the Whills was originally a framing device for the early drafts of Star Wars, but George didn’t really expound on what the Whills were. His original idea was that R2 at some point in the future would recount these tales to a Whill, who I guess was a physical being that kept a journal. Which, to me, makes me wonder how that would fit with the whole microscopic world George was talking about in the more recent interview with James Cameron.

That’s an interesting idea of R2 telling a Whill the story, but I don’t think George kept that idea because the Whills kinda go back to the “inter-dimensional” beings when they appeared at the end of the Clone Wars show. R2 definitely couldn’t meet one of them.

RogueLeader said:

And don’t worry man, I have a feeling future films or shows will dive deeper into the Force, and maybe even IX will, who knows? There’s so much content ahead, the Force will inevitably be explored more.

I hope so! Demystify the Force!

I guess you could call me a hipster; I think the prequels are better than the originals, and I think the Beach Boys are better than the Beatles.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

leetwall31 said:

I’ll take your word for it, but that link didn’t really make sense to me. Do you have maybe a quick quote from that thread I could read instead?

This post covers it pretty well:
https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Proof-of-Lucas-revisionism-in-Rinzlers-making-of-book/id/66017/page/1#1270726

DominicCobb said:

leetwall31 said:

I don’t think Midi-Chlorians are an over explanation. I think they enrich our understanding of the Force. Plus if Lucas was able to make the sequel trilogy, then they also serve as a setup.

The argument is that the force represents, amongst other things, life itself. To explore so deeply as you want the literal “what” and “how” and “why” of the force would be like asking for the film to give a definitive meaning of life. The force was designed as a mystical energy that is inherently unknowable. It is up to the characters to decide what to do with it and how they will use, much as it is up to them to decide what they will do will their lives and what choices they will make (and, of course, which side to be on). To pin down what the force is would be to simplify and demystify it.

That’s the point tho. If there was an order of people who used the Force and studied it for over a thousand years, they figured out what it was. I don’t think the Force is life necessarily, I think it’s supposed to be a by-product of life. It’s an energy that’s given off by living cells (Midi-Chlorians). Jedi/Sith harness that energy for their own use. That’s all we’re saying here. The Force isn’t life, and it’s not a religion. Outsiders call the Jedi a religion. It’s not, it’s a real practice. I think people who meditate can relate. Meditation is considered a religious practice, but the people who do it know that’s it’s really not, it’s a great mind hack to ease your temper and stress.

The force is a lot of things (in my example, its comparison to life is as a metaphor). That’s the beauty of keeping it ambiguous and open to interpretation. Nailing down exact parameters is limiting.

DominicCobb said:

Personally, I don’t have as big an issue with the midichlorians as presented in the PT as many do (though I don’t love it). But I would not be okay with what you seem to have wanted (and what Lucas debatable would or would not have done), which would have been to take the explaining to a whole other level.

Lol I get where you’re coming from. But I digress: it’s a newer and more interesting trilogy than what we’re getting now. I think the real reason they didn’t go for it was because George’s trilogy probably officially ended the Star Wars story. Wasn’t Star Wars a story told in a Journal by the Whills in the first place? If they’re gone, then there’s no one left to keep telling us the stories.

“Newer” does not necessarily equal better, you could make the ST about space janitors scrubbing toilets for 6 hours and it’d be “newer” for the series (and “more interesting” is a matter of preference, personally I think rooting the force in science is the opposite of interesting). And it’s not like the sequel trilogy is not exploring the force, it’s just not exploring midichlorians. The “real reason” they’re not using Lucas’s treatment is because even if Lucas ended up directing these films, he wouldn’t have used his treatment. Movies change and evolve significantly throughout development (now multiply that by 3). Look at the first treatment for “The Star Wars” and then look at the finished product and see what I mean.

As for the Journal of the Whills, if Lucas really thought it was so important he would have included it within his “completed” 6 episode saga. I like the concept too, but it is weird to blame the ST for overlooking it, when it was never a real thing beyond a recurring notion in the back of Lucas’s head.

Author
Time

I cannot argue with that!

I guess you could call me a hipster; I think the prequels are better than the originals, and I think the Beach Boys are better than the Beatles.

Author
Time

Yes, 100%. Rinzler clarified this edit on starwars.com, it’s all in the thread Dom posted.

It’s possible, but George contradicts himself so often in interviews that it is hard to say what he did or didn’t know early on in production. Like he says the films were always meant to outline the rise and fall of Vader, but is clear he didn’t plan for Vader to be Luke’s father until writing ESB. That’s okay, it is just not fair to fans to make them think he had it planned from the beginning when he didn’t.

Originally the Force came from crystals, and of these crystals was the MacGuffin for an early draft. I would say he was figuring out the Force as he went along.

Those beings at the end of the Clone Wars weren’t stated to be Whills, but Force priestesses. They may have been, but it was never clarified, which makes me think they weren’t.

If the Force is meant to be a faith-analogy, then I think the Force can be explored, but should always remain ambiguous and mysterious, even if it is a real thing. Even though it is a real energy field, you still have people who interpret it differently: the Jedi and Sith have to completely different philosophies on the function of the Force, and both would say the other doesn’t understand it. Then you have creatures like the Bendu who see themselves as in “the middle”. You could have people like Kreia, who see the Force as evil and wish to destroy it. Basically, the Force needs to be ambiguous enough for it to be open to interpretation, like how many real world religions interpret our own reality.

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

Thanks for the detailed and in depth review RL, though it just demonstrates to me how people can have such drastically different opinions and viewpoints on nearly every part of Star Wars.

RogueLeader said:
I mean, I don’t want the films to ever definitively define the Force, but the films do seem to suggest that the Force either does have a will of its own, or the Force is merely an aspect of that galaxy’s nature that can react to certain external forces that gives the semblance of conscious action, if that makes sense.

I agree that the force should remain undefined and mysterious but I’ve never seen or recognised any suggestions that it has a will or semblance of conscious action.

RogueLeader said:
I personally think it can and should be ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way, though. Think of it the way ancient civilizations deified forces of nature because they believed its unpredictability meant it must be sentient, and powerful. So either the Force is or isn’t conscious, but regardless, I think you can’t argue with the fact that the Force at least appears to be dynamic, to react to outside stimuli.

Not sure about any of that sorry except that the force does appear to be stronger in certain places, though that could also just be down to the sheer concentration of life in that area (and therefore the force which surrounds and binds all life together), creating a force “hot spot” or “pool” such as Dagobah however Dagobah itself seemed to be something else again.

RogueLeader said:
Let’s look at the prequels. Qui-Gon refers to “the will of the Force” on at least one occasion. He also believes that the Force, through the midichlorians, created Anakin in order to bring balance. So, the Force apparently reacted to the growing power of the Sith and the dark side, and created a conduit in which it can restore balance. The term “Chosen One” itself implies someone was chosen by something or someone with intent. I would also like to add that Qui-Gon should have some credibility since he was the first Jedi to be able to retain his consciousness after death.

I simply put this down to the religious like following and reverence that the Jedi Order held and built up around the force, almost worshipping it and despite Quigon’s obvious rebellious and fringe following of the order I still put what you quoted him as saying along with other things down to this dogmatic following that has existed for a thousand generations (a freaking LONG time). I never took it that the force is literally affecting events and showing signs to it’s followers in trying to communicate it’s will. It is a simply a force that exists and even the most benign and altruistic follower will still unwittingly apply their own lens and interpretations to such things in trying to gain understanding and some form of purpose to the existence of this force and their own relationship to it.

The prophecy like prophecies from any other religion is very broad and undefined, lending itself to many different interpretations or people that could be considered the chosen one. Quigon believed Anakin was the one but it is never confirmed and it could just as easily be a reference to Luke who convinces his father to return to the light who then kills the Emperor, removing the only two Sith in existence and therefore the corruption of the force, returning it to balance. I think the force is in true and absolute balance when no one is using it. If the Jedi only actually use it for defence and there are no Sith around to corrupt it’s use for evil deeds (therefore the Jedi shouldn’t need to use the force in any great amount) then generally it is going to be in a stable balance. The prophecy stems from the Jedi though so it is really talking about a balance from their perspective which essentially IS the non-existence of the Sith.

RogueLeader said:
We also hear how the Jedi’s ability to use the Force during the prequels has diminished. Regardless of what causes this, the growing power of the Sith/dark side, the Jedi’s own hubris, this clearly demonstrates that Force “power levels” are not constant, and that even the most powerful Jedi’s ability to use the Force is not a constant, static thing.

As said above, I do believe the force is stronger / weaker in different places around the universe. Maybe think of it as “pools” of force that get shallower the further out from them you get but they all generally overlap and flow into each other in a galactic network of pools of force that concentrate around mass and concentration of life, a few being particularly deep pools. I think the Jedi’s diminished ability to use the force in the PT is specifically in being able to feel and see possible futures and communicate with other Jedi and it’s simply through the sheer corrupt use of the force that is clouding the pools. We never actually see it directly affect their use of the force in combat, only in seeing through the “pool water”.

RogueLeader said:
And throughout both the prequels, the OT and the sequels we hear talk of destiny. In other words, fate, which implies that someone’s future, or a certain course of events, is predetermined. Predetermined by who? Destiny seems to be a real thing in the Star Wars universe, even if characters interpret it in their own ways. This shows that even in the OT, the idea that Force could determine one’s future existed. And again, this does not mean the Force has to necessarily be conscious, but rather another function of a potentially complex system.

I’ll quote some Terminator here - “No fate” 😛

But yeah, I don’t see anything in Star Wars that indicates a predetermined destiny for anyone and the force certainly has nothing to do with affecting fate apart from how one uses it which is a result of character actions, not some mysterious influence.

RogueLeader said:
Yoda even refers to it as his ally, which at least implies the idea that Yoda sees the Force as more than just a tool like the Sith do. Even visions, like the dark side cave on Dagobah, implies the idea that the Force is trying to show Luke something. I still believe you can interpret this as a conscious Force or the Force merely reflecting an individual’s internal thoughts and emotions. Both Obi-Wan and the Emperor refer to disturbances in the Force, meaning that outside stimuli can in fact make the Force react to it. Like throwing a rock in a water and creating waves.

The ally quote is an figurative speech, not meant to be taken literally. I actually find much of your interpretation of things to be overly literal, which is funny considering Dom’s comments on my own recent posts. I can be very literal and logical at times myself but it’s in my method of thinking, not so much taking everything at literal face value however when I see an orange I will call it an orange even if there is greater meaning to be gleaned from deeper thinking and/or in context to all the other contributing factors.

RogueLeader said:
Also this particular interaction,
Obi-Wan: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

This also does seem to imply that the Force can act on its own, guiding a persons actions when that person lets go of their own control and allows the Force to guide them. The person concentrates on what they want to achieve, and the Force helps them accomplish that action. This also could be interpreted as a stimuli-response interaction.

Again I see this as figurative speech that equates to a subconscious and instinctual control of your actions that is derived directly from the glimpse of the future that the force gives you (Jedi reflexes and accuracy) which in the immediate future is nearly without question but those with a stronger command of the force will gain an ever so slight edge over those of lesser strength. Basically a pre-cognitive feedback loop that you surrender yourself to in order to gain it’s advantages in combat and survival.

RogueLeader said:
So, the Sequel Trilogy. The name of Episode VII is literally titled THE FORCE AWAKENS. This is further evidence that at the very least the Force is a dynamic system that can ebb and flow. Snoke even refers to sensing it in the film itself.

Let’s get to Rey. Interestingly, Rey doesn’t demonstrate any strong connection to the Force until she is called to the lightsaber. Rey is clearly Force-sensitive, at the very least. She apparently has had dreams of Luke’s island in the past, but no overt uses of the Force. But when she touches the saber, it is like something clicks inside her. Like some repressed connection has awakened. And after that, we see her use the Force more overtly in a few different ways.

And in the Last Jedi, Snoke mentions the idea of the light rising to meet the growing darkness. Luke even implies the idea that he wants the Jedi to end so the light can come from a new, purer source.

Yes, these pieces of evidence can clearly point to the idea of a conscious Force. Rey fit the bill of the kind of person the Force felt worthy to be its hero, so it calls to her both on Takodana and on Ach-To, trying to take her down the necessary path. While Snoke takes credit for bridging Rey and Kylo’s minds, there seems to be a suggestion that a connection already existed between them, possibly originating from the Force (“Why is the Force connecting us?”), especially that it still exists even after Snoke’s death.

But, this also can be interpreted as aspects of just a very complex system of nature. It has been clearly demonstrated the power of the Force and the dark side clearly can wax and wane.

Sorry but at this point I personally can’t put credence in anything based in the ST and the Ep7 title to me was only meant to be symbolic in nature, not confirmation that the force has agenda and purpose though JJ and Rian to a larger degree with Snoke’s comment (on top of it being a bandaid / stopgap to criticism of Rey’s ridiculously fast mastery of the force) seem to have taken that line and run with it, another reason for me not to like the ST as it’s sounds and feels stupid to me since it’s at odds with how I have interpreted and understood the force in the OT for 30 years, even if just in a more basic and formless “feeling” of how it works before I delved into it in recent years.

RogueLeader said:
One interpretation could be that all Force-users act as conduits for the Force, and the more people there are that channel the light or dark sides of the Force, the stronger/weaker the abilities will manifest. The Jedi at their highest numbers had a diminished ability with the Force, while the Sith, under the rule of two, were at their most powerful. In the OT, the two Sith rule the galaxy, the two Jedi are in hiding, and Luke comes into the picture and becomes a Jedi in a fraction of the time the Jedi of the Old Republic did. Then we have the ST, where it has been 30 years since ROTJ, and Force-users on both sides demonstrate incredible power: Kylo freezing blaster bolts, Snoke connecting minds (supposedly), throwing Rey around with ease and reading her mind with minimal effort, and Luke projecting himself across the fucking galaxy.

And with the Force as a dynamic, complex system, you could also argue that the light/Force is drawn to positive emotions and mindset like a magnet, which could explain the Force’s draw to Rey, and the dark side is drawn to negative emotions and motivations.

This is just another interpretation, but this is just meant to prove that the idea of the Force being dynamic, a thing that lies dormant or grows in strength, doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be a conscious entity. The Force having a will of its own seems to be a clear answer, but those two things are not exclusive, and I personally believe they should never outright explain it as such.

And also, I get that the idea of a dynamic Force might not be your cup of tea, but just because that isn’t how you have perceived the Force in the past doesn’t mean that that isn’t the way it actually does in fact work. I personally think this evidence shows the Force is a dynamic system. I’m just suggesting open-mindedness, and you can find an interpretation of the Force can satisfy you, but also reflect what we are shown in all 8, soon to be 9, films. You don’t have to believe the Force is conscious, but you can still believe it is a system that acts and reacts to external stimuli (i.e. the Jedi and the Sith) that at least makes it behave as if it has a will of its own.

I can see your logic but it just doesn’t sit right with how I see it. I believe much of it can be explained away by other means and the ST simply locks in a certain line of thought that might have previously been there as one of many options but now has narrowed the possibilities and therefore it does start to remove the mystery and unfortunately it’s not compatible with my how I interpret and understand the force as presented in the OT.

Thanks for the effort in explaining your own viewpoint in such detail and I don’t mean to be so rigid myself except that I’ve never had any issue with how I understand the force and I greatly enjoy the OT with that understanding and so I see no need to change it in order to accommodate new movies that I don’t like for a plethora of reasons anyway.

Author
Time

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

DominicCobb said:

Also I don’t think anywhere in the films is it explicit that the force has a will of its own. Some characters might say it does, but that’s their opinion. The films purposely leave it open to interpretation, so if it bothers you it’s easy to imagine it isn’t the case (or perhaps if you want something to complain about, you can imagine it is).

I’m not looking to complain about anything, I’m simply stating as to what I take issue with and the reasons why. I somewhat touch on above why I have an issue with the handling of the force in the ST. Basically the ST subscribes to a more defined line of reasoning as to how the force works in the Star Wars universe and this is at odds with my reasoning and it’s really as simple as that. To actually reference a ST quote in respect to this:

Author
Time

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

No. You misunderstand me. My analysis is from a meta perspective. I’m talking about all the movies, not just the ST.

Author
Time

Thanks for being pretty civil, Val, and sharing your own opinion with me.

I like how you also mention the Force having strong points, almost like pools of life or the Force. I’ve used a pool or water metaphor before to describe the Force, and that Jedi go with the flow of the current of the Force, while the Sith try to dam it and redirect that current to serve their own purposes. It’s very similar to how one might describe Taoism, and how the concept of Wei Wu Wei within Taoism is like the idea of “going with the flow”. Although the Taoism doesn’t necessarily have “pools”, but maybe you could argue places full of nature might be more in line with the Tao, and more balanced, than places like cities for example. That could also explain why the Jedi gradually became weaker in a cityscape like Coruscant as well.

I think you could also describe the Force in terms of electricity, and how those pools could be like “hotspots”. A lot of my earlier examples fit with those terms as well.

I still personally believe that the Force is a dynamic system. The fact that Force can even be out of balance in the first place demonstrates this to me. And the fact that Anakin fulfilled his destiny also does seem to lead credence to the idea of destiny. But that’s just me.

I can definitely see how our own opinions can kind of influence our own definitions of the Force, but I would definitely suggest that we should just be open-minded about how the Force works.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

No. You misunderstand me. My analysis is from a meta perspective. I’m talking about all the movies, not just the ST.

Well then you’ve lost me. You keep shifting the goal posts of what I am supposed to get and when I respond to it you just say I’m not getting it, to the point I no longer even know what we’re talking about anymore. Below is our discussion so far, please let me know where I am going wrong:

DominicCobb said:

The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level. So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:
The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level.

Could you please provide some examples from the OT so I might better understand your perspective. I don’t think I can recall any instances where the force itself has an impact on the characters or story, it’s alway how the characters themselves harness and use it. When you take away the human / sentient being using the force element, the dark side is not actually a literal half of the force that is evil nor is the light side “good”. It is simply “the force”, as Obi-wan explains it:

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

It gives a Jedi his power, it doesn’t define or directly affect them. Flip that for a Sith - it gives them their power and has nothing to do with being evil in itself. The “Dark Side” is a concept created by force users to define and describe in a name, the seductive nature of power in itself and how it can corrupt yourself. This is what makes a Sith - a force user who has given into selfish desires to use the power for themselves instead of defence only and that of helpless innocents. They corrupt the use of the force but the actual force itself is still without moral definition or intent. To put it simply, it’s a tool and it’s how the user uses it that defines whether it’s use is for good or evil.

DominicCobb said:
So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

So what you’re saying, from my perspective, would be akin to saying that sunlight can determine between two people who the saber and what it represents belongs to. That part of the sunlight’s power is evil because some people harness it with magnifying glasses to kill ants and that the other “side” of this energy is good because other people use it to provide power and grow food for people to live on.

From just the movie perspective, what it is attributing to Rey should be shown through other means, not through some divine influence of events by the force which clouds and twists people’s understanding of it and it’s purpose in the Star Wars univers.

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

DominicCobb said:

Also I don’t think anywhere in the films is it explicit that the force has a will of its own. Some characters might say it does, but that’s their opinion. The films purposely leave it open to interpretation, so if it bothers you it’s easy to imagine it isn’t the case (or perhaps if you want something to complain about, you can imagine it is).

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

DominicCobb said:

Also I don’t think anywhere in the films is it explicit that the force has a will of its own. Some characters might say it does, but that’s their opinion. The films purposely leave it open to interpretation, so if it bothers you it’s easy to imagine it isn’t the case (or perhaps if you want something to complain about, you can imagine it is).

I’m not looking to complain about anything, I’m simply stating as to what I take issue with and the reasons why. I somewhat touch on above why I have an issue with the handling of the force in the ST. Basically the ST subscribes to a more defined line of reasoning as to how the force works in the Star Wars universe and this is at odds with my reasoning and it’s really as simple as that. To actually reference a ST quote in respect to this:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru, you’ve missed my point entirely. I’m speaking about it from a meta perspective.

Star Wars being “meta” is another reason I don’t like the ST, so that’s not helping your argument. Star Wars is and has always been escapism for me so I don’t need nods and meta references breaking the 4th wall for me.

No. You misunderstand me. My analysis is from a meta perspective. I’m talking about all the movies, not just the ST.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

At no point I have I moved the goal posts. I made a post, you didn’t get what I meant, and you seemingly have gotten no closer to understanding. I don’t blame you because my first post was worded weird. But in subsequent post you’ve just been arguing against a point I wasn’t making and all I’ve been saying is that you’re misunderstanding me.

Here’s the initial post

DominicCobb said:
The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level. So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

To clarify, what I meant is that the force has always had more meaning in the story than just as a plot device. There’s a metaphorical aspect to it as well. In the original film, the force represents Luke’s calling, and ultimately his potential to do great things. It’s not all about the literal interpretation. Luke turning off his targeting computer and acting on instinct is what lets him succeed in his mission. The literal interpretation here is that acting on instinct helps Luke better utilize the force. But the non-literal messaging is that Luke succeeds because he trusts in himself and his instincts. So the force is an agent for representing meaning in the film beyond the literal.

Hopefully this makes more sense now.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

^ Cheers for the clarification Dom, though I guess I still don’t understand what you are trying to say then when talking about the force and Rey getting chosen over Ben. I assume your initial post was in response to the below part of my post where I was replying to RL:

Valheru_84 said:
Also I took Rey’s force pulling and catching the lightsaber in TFA as taking Kylo by surprise, especially with it already traveling in that direction it would only take a quick last second use of the force to alter it’s course to miss Kylo and go to Rey instead. It has nothing to do with the Force choosing Rey over Kylo as to who should have the saber, in my eyes THAT is plain silly and twists my concept of the force into something unrecognisable from what I grew up with from the OT.

DominicCobb said:
To clarify, what I meant is that the force has always had more meaning in the story than just as a plot device. There’s a metaphorical aspect to it as well. In the original film, the force represents Luke’s calling, and ultimately his potential to do great things. It’s not all about the literal interpretation. Luke turning off his targeting computer and acting on instinct is what lets him succeed in his mission. The literal interpretation here is that acting on instinct helps Luke better utilize the force. But the non-literal messaging is that Luke succeeds because he trusts in himself and his instincts. So the force is an agent for representing meaning in the film beyond the literal.

Hopefully this makes more sense now.

I understand what you’re saying above in your clarification but all of that is still derived from character actions, there is never a point where characters are directly affected by something the force is doing. Whereas the ST would have us believe that events are being influenced to some extent by the force which is completely counter to my understanding of it.

In dissecting your initial post to try and garner your intended point, I think I can now see that you’re simply saying the force is actually stronger in Rey during this scene which is why it goes to her instead (though I still just put it down to her hijacking Kylo’s in flight force pull, surprising him who didn’t consider her a threat in any way, especially seeing that they were in a stalemate trying to force pull the saber in TLJ) and that this is trying to say something about the two characters. But why is Rey stronger here? Why does that then mean that the saber and what it represents “belongs” to Rey? What do you actually see or understand in the movie that gives you this impression?

Your initial post still seems to somewhat support what RL is saying in that the force is influencing these events because you are attributing the decision to the force. If it’s an attempt by Rian to imply a metaphorical message then he has gone about it arse about which is why it doesn’t make sense to me.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Yeah you’re definitely closer to what I’m trying to say.

Basically, the argument is that (as RL stated earlier) Rey is of “purer intent” than Kylo - she’s fighting for the light and him the dark. He had a chance to take the mantle of ‘hero Skywalker’ but chose the dark path. The saber represents and recalls the weapon of the savior of the galaxy, in the PT it belongs to the “one who will bring balance,” and in the OT it belongs to the “last hope.” In the ST, the saber is metaphorical of the new mission to reignite the spark of hope and take up the fight (this is pretty explicit in TLJ, less so TFA because of rewrites). Kylo wants the saber because of his birthright, but what it represents doesn’t belong to him, it belongs to Rey. So when the lightsaber goes into Rey’s hand and not Kylo’s, in my mind the literal question of “how did it get there?” -whether the answer is that Rey is stronger in the force, Kylo was caught off guard, or the force is exerting its will - doesn’t matter. What matters is the figurative meaning of the scene - Rey has finally taken up the saber and the mantle it represents which she initially rejected, and which at this point she is more deserving of than Kylo due to who she is, and not who her parents are.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

Yeah you’re definitely closer to what I’m trying to say.

Basically, the argument is that (as RL stated earlier) Rey is of “purer intent” than Kylo - she’s fighting for the light and him the dark. He had a chance to take the mantle of ‘hero Skywalker’ but chose the dark path. The saber represents and recalls the weapon of the savior of the galaxy, in the PT it belongs to the “one who will bring balance,” and in the OT it belongs to the “last hope.” In the ST, the saber is metaphorical of the new mission to reignite the spark of hope and take up the fight (this is pretty explicit in TLJ, less so TFA because of rewrites). Kylo wants the saber because of his birthright, but what it represents doesn’t belong to him, it belongs to Rey. So when the lightsaber goes into Rey’s hand and not Kylo’s, in my mind the literal question of “how did it get there?” -whether the answer is that Rey is stronger in the force, Kylo was caught off guard, or the force is exerting its will - doesn’t matter. What matters is the figurative meaning of the scene - Rey has finally taken up the saber and the mantle it represents which she initially rejected, and which at this point she is more deserving of than Kylo due to who she is, and not who her parents are.

Nice one Dom! Great post! You made me appreciate TFA more!

Author
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Yeah you’re definitely closer to what I’m trying to say.

Basically, the argument is that (as RL stated earlier) Rey is of “purer intent” than Kylo - she’s fighting for the light and him the dark. He had a chance to take the mantle of ‘hero Skywalker’ but chose the dark path. The saber represents and recalls the weapon of the savior of the galaxy, in the PT it belongs to the “one who will bring balance,” and in the OT it belongs to the “last hope.” In the ST, the saber is metaphorical of the new mission to reignite the spark of hope and take up the fight (this is pretty explicit in TLJ, less so TFA because of rewrites). Kylo wants the saber because of his birthright, but what it represents doesn’t belong to him, it belongs to Rey. So when the lightsaber goes into Rey’s hand and not Kylo’s, in my mind the literal question of “how did it get there?” -whether the answer is that Rey is stronger in the force, Kylo was caught off guard, or the force is exerting its will - doesn’t matter. What matters is the figurative meaning of the scene - Rey has finally taken up the saber and the mantle it represents which she initially rejected, and which at this point she is more deserving of than Kylo due to who she is, and not who her parents are.

Nice one Dom! Great post! You made me appreciate TFA more!

Thanks. It’s good to know at least sometimes I say things that make sense.

What’s funny is initially Kylo’s line of “that lightsaber belongs to me” wasn’t one of my favorites. I sort of just saw it as part of an underdeveloped subplot (him collecting Vader stuff) and a remnant of an different version of the film. But I think upon further reflection, especially in light of TLJ, the line still holds a good deal of meaning for the character and story.

I’d be very curious to see what that earlier version of TFA was like, where there’s no map and everyone’s after the lightsaber. The fact that the saber represented the search for Luke/hope would have been a lot more explicit, though perhaps the biggest issue was that it was hard to figure out the non-figurative importance of the object (how would a lightsaber help them find him exactly?). But the meaning still shows through when Rey finds it and her subsequent talk with Maz, and the scene I mentioned, and of course when Rey brings it with her to Ahch-to and offers it to Luke. A meaning which continues throughout TLJ (as I believe I’ve written about before a couple times), and hopefully will continue into IX (getting back on topic). TLJ ends with the saber broken, but of course Rey’s still got it. If we were to extrapolate what TFA and TLJ are telling us, then we’ll see Rey with a repaired version of the saber, which will have something significantly different about it. In my mind losing the saber completely would go against the ethos of what’s been established for the character (i.e. not killing the past), and simply reviving the saber as it was would be lazy and also go against what has been set up (she’s forging her own path). We’ll see.

Author
Time

This got me thinking. If Ben is redeemed, I think it would make sense if the saber went to him. Ben accepting and turning it on would be a powerful visual, showing his turn to the light and perhaps remind us of the scene where Luke gets the saber from Obi-Wan, with unknown adventures ahead. It would symbolize the hero and the Skywalker within him. “It belongs to me” would get a new meaning. The saber being broken but repaired would of course symbolize Ben himself, especially since it was repaired by Rey much like Ben might be. Rey handing the saber to Ben would be a callback to her handing it to Luke, and Ben accepting it would symbolize him giving Rey the belonging she was searching for in Luke. “It belongs to you”, she might say, tying their story arches together.

Author
Time

Sir Ridley said:

This got me thinking. If Ben is redeemed, I think it would make sense if the saber went to him. Ben accepting and turning it on would be a powerful visual, showing his turn to the light and perhaps remind us of the scene where Luke gets the saber from Obi-Wan, with unknown adventures ahead. It would symbolize the hero and the Skywalker within him. “It belongs to me” would get a new meaning. The saber being broken but repaired would of course symbolize Ben himself, especially since it was repaired by Rey much like Ben might be. Rey handing the saber to Ben would be a callback to her handing it to Luke, and Ben accepting it would symbolize him giving Rey the belonging she was searching for in Luke. “It belongs to you”, she might say, tying their story arches together.

That would be pretty great and epic if you ask me.

Noah Lawson

Author
Time
 (Edited)

nl0428 said:

Sir Ridley said:

This got me thinking. If Ben is redeemed, I think it would make sense if the saber went to him. Ben accepting and turning it on would be a powerful visual, showing his turn to the light and perhaps remind us of the scene where Luke gets the saber from Obi-Wan, with unknown adventures ahead. It would symbolize the hero and the Skywalker within him. “It belongs to me” would get a new meaning. The saber being broken but repaired would of course symbolize Ben himself, especially since it was repaired by Rey much like Ben might be. Rey handing the saber to Ben would be a callback to her handing it to Luke, and Ben accepting it would symbolize him giving Rey the belonging she was searching for in Luke. “It belongs to you”, she might say, tying their story arches together.

That would be pretty great and epic if you ask me.

I don’t think I would like that. If the ST has one core theme, I would say that lineage is not important. It’s the choices you make. Rey has thusfar made the right choices, whilst Ben made the wrong ones. Rey should be the one who builds a new future on that basis. For Ben to be redeemed, he should recognize this. It is not his birth right. He doesn’t deserve that lightsaber. She might offer it to him, but he should reject it imo.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

To the surprise of no-one… 😉

‘This is the panel you’ve been waiting for! Don’t miss the Star Wars: Episode IX panel with director @jjabrams at #StarWarsCelebration Chicago! Want Friday tickets? Use, LYTE, our official ticket exchange website’

https://twitter.com/SW_Celebration/status/1105913994018258945
 

I imagine we’ll be getting a title for Episode IX during this - and maybe some sort of teaser trailer.
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Author
Time

DrDre said:

nl0428 said:

Sir Ridley said:

This got me thinking. If Ben is redeemed, I think it would make sense if the saber went to him. Ben accepting and turning it on would be a powerful visual, showing his turn to the light and perhaps remind us of the scene where Luke gets the saber from Obi-Wan, with unknown adventures ahead. It would symbolize the hero and the Skywalker within him. “It belongs to me” would get a new meaning. The saber being broken but repaired would of course symbolize Ben himself, especially since it was repaired by Rey much like Ben might be. Rey handing the saber to Ben would be a callback to her handing it to Luke, and Ben accepting it would symbolize him giving Rey the belonging she was searching for in Luke. “It belongs to you”, she might say, tying their story arches together.

That would be pretty great and epic if you ask me.

I don’t think I would like that. If the ST has one core theme, I would say that lineage is not important. It’s the choices you make. Rey has thusfar made the right choices, whilst Ben made the wrong ones. Rey should be the one who builds a new future on that basis. For Ben to be redeemed, he should recognize this. It is not his birth right. He doesn’t deserve that lightsaber. She might offer it to him, but he should reject it imo.

Wouldn’t you say that the lightsaber represents lineage? If so, it would reinforce the unimportance of lineage if Rey gives away the lightsaber and forges her own path. We are made to believe that Rey is “worthy” because she gets the lightsaber, when the point should be that she is worthy even without it.

Ben on the other hand seems to care more about lineage. “Forget the past”, he says, and yet he talks to Vader’s helmet and claims ownership of the saber. If he received the saber it could be a key to understanding where he came from and perhaps it would give him a feeling of responsibility to uphold the legacy going forward.