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Episode IX - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 53

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nl0428 said:

I’d also like to ask something the strangely happened ever since The Last Jedi came out. Ever since The Force Awakens came out, fans were talking about things that could potentially happen in the future with the saga beyond the sequel trilogy. Now that The Last Jedi came out, fans are now saying that they want not only the trilogy, but the entire saga to wrap up. I know that there are many people who hate The Last Jedi, but it seems as if it just killed everybody’s excitement for the main saga all of a sudden. Why is this?

Maybe some people just want a definitive ending to the main saga? The joke going around when the new films were announced was they would be making them long after most of us are dead.
Thing is, even if they did say it was the end, we’ve been fed that line before…

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Ever since the sequels were announced, I wanted for either Episode IX to be the permanent end of the main saga, with future movies being their own thing unrelated to the Skywalkers, or for there to be a ~15-20 year gap between Episodes IX and X.

Now I definitely want IX to be the end, because unless Kylo is redeemed, there aren’t anymore Skywalkers, and having a numbered saga movie (Episode X+) with no Skywalkers seems weird to me.

But that doesn’t mean I want Star Wars movies to end, or that I want them all to be one-offs. I’m very excited about both Benioff & Weiss’ trilogy and Rian Johnson’s trilogy, because they’ll both be mini-sagas separated from the numbered episodes and free from the baggage of the Skywalkers.

As SilverWook said, I want a definitive ending to the main saga, like ROTJ was for a very long time. I’m fine with it continuing in book or comic form as the EU back in the 90s-00s did, but as a movie series, it needs to have an ending.

a trolling bantha

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SilverWook said:

nl0428 said:

I’d also like to ask something the strangely happened ever since The Last Jedi came out. Ever since The Force Awakens came out, fans were talking about things that could potentially happen in the future with the saga beyond the sequel trilogy. Now that The Last Jedi came out, fans are now saying that they want not only the trilogy, but the entire saga to wrap up. I know that there are many people who hate The Last Jedi, but it seems as if it just killed everybody’s excitement for the main saga all of a sudden. Why is this?

Maybe some people just want a definitive ending to the main saga? The joke going around when the new films were announced was they would be making them long after most of us are dead.
Thing is, even if they did say it was the end, we’ve been fed that line before…

I understand, but even then, George Lucas changed his mind several times in the past. When the original trilogy finished, he said he was done, and left to work on other projects, father his kids, etc. Years later, his interest in making the prequels sparked, so he decided to make the first three episodes he had thought up and wrote early drafts for when developing the original trilogy. After the prequel trilogy wrapped up, George stated that the saga (in his original vision) was complete. He did have early ideas and drafts for a possible third and fourth trilogy if he decided to make them, but at that point, he didn’t have any intentions to do so. When he sold Lucasfilm to Disney, he pitched his story ideas for the sequel trilogy, but they discarded his ideas. This is why Lucas has had some distaste for the sequel trilogy, because they didn’t accept his ideas. Some elements of his ideas were kept, yet revised, such as a lead female character named Kira, who later became Rey, and Luke Skywalker would be an old Jedi hermit who abandoned his ways. You can find concept art of this early idea of Luke (with old Mark Hamill’s likeness) with milky white eyes and a Japanese-like man bun. However, it was revealed about a year ago that Lucas’ plans for the sequel trilogy would mainly deal with midi-chlorians and the creation of the Force. Considering that fans (myself included) did not like how the mystical concept of the Force was explained like super powers in the prequels, I think we can safely say that it’s good that George’s plans for VII, VIII, and IX did not happen.

As for Episode IX’s marketing, I think that it will be marketed as the last installment of the sequel trilogy, but not the main saga. I believe that Lucasfilm will give Episode IX a conclusive, yet open ending to the possibility of Episodes X, XI, and XII happening some day in the years to come. Now that George Lucas is gone, I’m sure that the same case of marketing the final installment of the trilogy as the conclusion to the overall saga will not be the case, if they have plans to continue it onwards. I believe that there is some intention of continuing the saga with a fourth trilogy in the next ten to twenty years to come.

Noah Lawson

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George was saying at least as early as 1987 he would return to Star Wars one day.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

George was saying at least as early as 1987 he would return to Star Wars one day.

I know. But even then, they were not definitive answers. Lucas has changed his mind several times in the past. Just look at his thoughts on how he felt about making the original trilogy compared to every time he’s added and altered things with every special edition release.

Noah Lawson

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I don’t think George settled on how episodes there’d be until the Prequels. The Sequels seem like an afterthought to keep Lucasfilm busy and successful, and appealing for the Disney buyout. I don’t think he was all that invested in them.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

I don’t think George settled on how episodes there’d be until the Prequels. The Sequels seem like an afterthought to keep Lucasfilm busy and successful, and appealing for the Disney buyout. I don’t think he was all that invested in them.

I agree. I do think that George Lucas, in some ways, was just going to sit on the franchise and not do anything with the saga. I know that there were still other projects occurring like the TV shows, but I don’t think we were ever going to get anymore movies after the Revenge of the Sith. I believe we are blessed that Disney is making Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, as well as more movies to come in the future, as this is something they know is important to people, yet it is still very successful.

Noah Lawson

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The only way I’d be okay with a X/XI/XII and beyond is if Kylo has offspring that the next trilogy focuses on. Numbered saga films should be about the Skywalkers at this point, otherwise they should be a separate series that isn’t Episode X/XI/XII.

Of course, if Lucas hadn’t made I-VI into “The Saga of Anakin Skywalker,” I’d be fine with IX being the last we see of the Skywalker bloodline, with X-XII having nothing to do with that family. But since that’s what the movies turned into, there’s no reason not to begin a new saga that isn’t Episode X+ if they aren’t continuing the Skywalker family past Kylo.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

The only way I’d be okay with a X/XI/XII and beyond is if Kylo has offspring that the next trilogy focuses on. Numbered saga films should be about the Skywalkers at this point, otherwise they should be a separate series that isn’t Episode X/XI/XII.

Of course, if Lucas hadn’t made I-VI into “The Saga of Anakin Skywalker,” I’d be fine with IX being the last we see of the Skywalker bloodline, with X-XII having nothing to do with that family. But since that’s what the movies turned into, there’s no reason not to begin a new saga that isn’t Episode X+ if they aren’t continuing the Skywalker family past Kylo.

I agree. I think a fourth trilogy could be based around Rey, Ben, and their kids.

Noah Lawson

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Yeah, if Rey and Kylo get together, I’m done, so…nah.

a trolling bantha

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nl0428 said:

I know that the title “Balance of the Force” has been used on some Star Wars content in the past, but the title “The Last Jedi” was also used before in the past too.

Wasn’t the first time either:

nl0428 said:

As for Episode IX’s marketing, I think that it will be marketed as the last installment of the sequel trilogy, but not the main saga.

It already is being marketed as the last of the saga. This is from the original cast announcement for IX:

STAR WARS: EPISODE IX CAST ANNOUNCED
Star Wars: Episode IX will begin filming at London’s Pinewood Studios on August 1, 2018. J.J. Abrams returns to direct the final installment of the Skywalker saga.

Help back OMNO!

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ChainsawAsh said:

The only way I’d be okay with a X/XI/XII and beyond is if Kylo has offspring that the next trilogy focuses on. Numbered saga films should be about the Skywalkers at this point, otherwise they should be a separate series that isn’t Episode X/XI/XII.

Of course, if Lucas hadn’t made I-VI into “The Saga of Anakin Skywalker,” I’d be fine with IX being the last we see of the Skywalker bloodline, with X-XII having nothing to do with that family. But since that’s what the movies turned into, there’s no reason not to begin a new saga that isn’t Episode X+ if they aren’t continuing the Skywalker family past Kylo.

Lucas making it into “the Saga of Anakin Skywalker” or “the Tragedy of Darth Vader” became irrelevant the second they announced Episode VII, just as the OT being “the Adventures of Luke Skywalker” became irrelevant as soon as the prequels were decided. Now they’re “the Skywalker Saga,” which means that yeah, they shouldn’t make any more if all the Skywalkers end up dead… but then again who’s to say they couldn’t reframe the saga again like they’ve done before…

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I simply can’t understand a future for Star Wars where people want Rey and Kylo to actually be together in the movies after the events of TLJ. The world of Star Wars is already inside out without making it a complete chaotic mess.

The only chance that possible direction had was if Rey turned to the dark side in joining with Ben in TLJ and that ship has long since sailed and despite my grievances with TLJ I really wish they had done this as it a number of things would make a lot more sense and be something we haven’t yet seen in Star Wars.

Alas, Disney couldn’t have their new leading woman be seen as evil and Rian had to have his umpteenth subversion.

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Valheru_84 said:

and Rian had to have his umpteenth subversion.

Buy Rey rejecting Kylo wasn’t a subversion at all. Having her join him would have been a subversion, since we expect the hero to reject the offer to join the villain, like Luke and basically every hero in every story ever.

But Rian = The Worst Thing That’s Ever Happened to Star Wars, so gotta make stuff up to be pissed at him for when there isn’t anything there I guess, huh?

a trolling bantha

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The “subverted expectations” meme is one of the most annoying things to come out of the TLJ discourse, and whenever someone drops it it’s clear they’re either arguing in bad faith or don’t know what they’re talking about.

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Valheru_84 said:

I simply can’t understand a future for Star Wars where people want Rey and Kylo to actually be together in the movies after the events of TLJ. The world of Star Wars is already inside out without making it a complete chaotic mess.

The only chance that possible direction had was if Rey turned to the dark side in joining with Ben in TLJ and that ship has long since sailed and despite my grievances with TLJ I really wish they had done this as it a number of things would make a lot more sense and be something we haven’t yet seen in Star Wars.

Alas, Disney couldn’t have their new leading woman be seen as evil and Rian had to have his umpteenth subversion.

When Rey shut the Falcon’s door, she wasn’t turning him off in an act that she can’t trust him anymore, but in an act to show him that he needs to find where he truly belongs within himself before she can allow him to come to her. She’s not turning Ben away forever, but only until he begins to become and realize the person he needs to become in order for him to be with her. Ben begins to slowly come to a realization when he looks down in loneliness, defeat, and feeling upset. Very much how he felt weakened when he killed his father. You can tell just from reading the looks on Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver’s faces.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

Valheru_84 said:

I simply can’t understand a future for Star Wars where people want Rey and Kylo to actually be together in the movies after the events of TLJ. The world of Star Wars is already inside out without making it a complete chaotic mess.

The only chance that possible direction had was if Rey turned to the dark side in joining with Ben in TLJ and that ship has long since sailed and despite my grievances with TLJ I really wish they had done this as it a number of things would make a lot more sense and be something we haven’t yet seen in Star Wars.

Alas, Disney couldn’t have their new leading woman be seen as evil and Rian had to have his umpteenth subversion.

When Rey shut the Falcon’s door, she wasn’t turning him off in an act that she can’t trust him anymore, but in an act to show him that he needs to find where he truly belongs within himself before she can allow him to come to her. She’s not turning Ben away forever, but only until he begins to become and realize the person he needs to become in order for him to be with her.

Man, I really hope this isn’t where things are going in IX…

a trolling bantha

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DominicCobb said:

The “subverted expectations” meme is one of the most annoying things to come out of the TLJ discourse, and whenever someone drops it it’s clear they’re either arguing in bad faith or don’t know what they’re talking about.

Eh, there are some things about TLJ that were clearly designed specifically to subvert audience expectations, but it’s certainly nowhere near as prevalent in the film as the internet would lead you to believe.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

nl0428 said:

Valheru_84 said:

I simply can’t understand a future for Star Wars where people want Rey and Kylo to actually be together in the movies after the events of TLJ. The world of Star Wars is already inside out without making it a complete chaotic mess.

The only chance that possible direction had was if Rey turned to the dark side in joining with Ben in TLJ and that ship has long since sailed and despite my grievances with TLJ I really wish they had done this as it a number of things would make a lot more sense and be something we haven’t yet seen in Star Wars.

Alas, Disney couldn’t have their new leading woman be seen as evil and Rian had to have his umpteenth subversion.

When Rey shut the Falcon’s door, she wasn’t turning him off in an act that she can’t trust him anymore, but in an act to show him that he needs to find where he truly belongs within himself before she can allow him to come to her. She’s not turning Ben away forever, but only until he begins to become and realize the person he needs to become in order for him to be with her.

Man, I really hope this isn’t where things are going in IX…

I’m sorry that you’re not a fan of that particular direction, but I believe it is something that was planned as a story thread for the trilogy. I actually like the Rey and Kylo Ben romance that Abrams and Johnson have made, but I know that everyone hasn’t been won over completely yet.

Noah Lawson

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ChainsawAsh said:

DominicCobb said:

The “subverted expectations” meme is one of the most annoying things to come out of the TLJ discourse, and whenever someone drops it it’s clear they’re either arguing in bad faith or don’t know what they’re talking about.

Eh, there are some things about TLJ that were clearly designed specifically to subvert audience expectations, but it’s certainly nowhere near as prevalent in the film as the internet would lead you to believe.

Was subverting expectations in mind? Obviously. It’s been stated by Johnson, that’s where the meme comes from. But the purpose of such is, at best, misunderstood by many.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Valheru_84 said:

and Rian had to have his umpteenth subversion.

Buy Rey rejecting Kylo wasn’t a subversion at all. Having her join him would have been a subversion, since we expect the hero to reject the offer to join the villain, like Luke and basically every hero in every story ever.

But Rian = The Worst Thing That’s Ever Happened to Star Wars, so gotta make stuff up to be pissed at him for when there isn’t anything there I guess, huh?

You’re right actually, I just got so conditioned to him doing it that I lumped that expectation in with the rest of the subversions. Thinking about it now, if Rey HAD joined him then that would have been one subversion (the only one) that would have actually worked for me, instead of coming off as another cheap “gotcha” trick.

Rian is certainly the worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars in my books as for me he essentially killed the new trilogy and the possibility of enjoying a larger saga than the original 6 part one. His movie literally killed joy and interest in new Star Wars movies for me.

nl0428 said:
When Rey shut the Falcon’s door, she wasn’t turning him off in an act that she can’t trust him anymore, but in an act to show him that he needs to find where he truly belongs within himself before she can allow him to come to her. She’s not turning Ben away forever, but only until he begins to become and realize the person he needs to become in order for him to be with her. Ben begins to slowly come to a realization when he looks down in loneliness, defeat, and feeling upset. Very much how he felt weakened when he killed his father. You can tell just from reading the looks on Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver’s faces.

Kylo is responsible for killing most/all of Luke’s students, murdering Han Solo in cold blood in front of Rey, being an enabling part of an organisation that wiped out BILLIONS of people and other alien races in the destruction of the Hosnian system and who knows how many other atrocities. Kylo is supposedly the reason Luke does a 180 flip on his OT character as we knew him, causing Luke to go hide on an island while he waits to die alone. Luke’s absence is a major factor in Snoke and the First Order rising to power unchallenged. You think after all that Rey will enter into a loving relationship with this utterly evil, deranged and mentally unstable excuse for a human with a galaxy worth of blood on his hands??

There might yet be a path back to the light side and redemption for Kylo as with Vader but Rey is actually correct in calling him a monster, which she seems to forget 2-3 force-skype sessions later and if she ends up “with him” in IX that would be completely fucked up and the only way it could have made sense was if she went to the dark side and gave into some dark, evil desires she had been suppressing till now. Luke even comments earlier how she went straight to the dark side during her lesson, that she didn’t even try to resist it and this would have been the perfect lead in to her joining Kylo. Yet for some reason this leads no where and I think this is where my original thought that her not joining Kylo was a subversion as Rian had set up a few things to try and lead one to think that’s where it might be heading.

ChainsawAsh said:
Eh, there are some things about TLJ that were clearly designed specifically to subvert audience expectations, but it’s certainly nowhere near as prevalent in the film as the internet would lead you to believe.

It’s certainly not every minute or anything like that but it is a consistent theme running throughout the entire movie and this is based on my own experience, not what the internet says 😉 It’s one of the main things I recognised early on for myself when I started to internalise afterwards why I felt like shit after watching what was supposed to be a Star Wars movie.

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Valheru_84 said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Valheru_84 said:

and Rian had to have his umpteenth subversion.

Buy Rey rejecting Kylo wasn’t a subversion at all. Having her join him would have been a subversion, since we expect the hero to reject the offer to join the villain, like Luke and basically every hero in every story ever.

But Rian = The Worst Thing That’s Ever Happened to Star Wars, so gotta make stuff up to be pissed at him for when there isn’t anything there I guess, huh?

You’re right actually, I just got so conditioned to him doing it that I lumped that expectation in with the rest of the subversions. Thinking about it now, if Rey HAD joined him then that would have been one subversion (the only one) that would have actually worked for me, instead of coming off as another cheap “gotcha” trick.

Rian is certainly the worst thing to ever happen to Star Wars in my books as for me he essentially killed the new trilogy and the possibility of enjoying a larger saga than the original 6 part one. His movie literally killed joy and interest in new Star Wars movies for me.

nl0428 said:
When Rey shut the Falcon’s door, she wasn’t turning him off in an act that she can’t trust him anymore, but in an act to show him that he needs to find where he truly belongs within himself before she can allow him to come to her. She’s not turning Ben away forever, but only until he begins to become and realize the person he needs to become in order for him to be with her. Ben begins to slowly come to a realization when he looks down in loneliness, defeat, and feeling upset. Very much how he felt weakened when he killed his father. You can tell just from reading the looks on Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver’s faces.

Kylo is responsible for killing most/all of Luke’s students, murdering Han Solo in cold blood in front of Rey, being an enabling part of an organisation that wiped out BILLIONS of people and other alien races in the destruction of the Hosnian system and who knows how many other atrocities. Kylo is supposedly the reason Luke does a 180 flip on his OT character as we knew him, causing Luke to go hide on an island while he waits to die alone. Luke’s absence is a major factor in Snoke and the First Order rising to power unchallenged. You think after all that Rey will enter into a loving relationship with this utterly evil, deranged and mentally unstable excuse for a human with a galaxy worth of blood on his hands??

There might yet be a path back to the light side and redemption for Kylo as with Vader but Rey is actually correct in calling him a monster, which she seems to forget 2-3 force-skype sessions later and if she ends up “with him” in IX that would be completely fucked up and the only way it could have made sense was if she went to the dark side and gave into some dark, evil desires she had been suppressing till now. Luke even comments earlier how she went straight to the dark side during her lesson, that she didn’t even try to resist it and this would have been the perfect lead in to her joining Kylo. Yet for some reason this leads no where and I think this is where my original thought that her not joining Kylo was a subversion as Rian had set up a few things to try and lead one to think that’s where it might be heading.

ChainsawAsh said:
Eh, there are some things about TLJ that were clearly designed specifically to subvert audience expectations, but it’s certainly nowhere near as prevalent in the film as the internet would lead you to believe.

It’s certainly not every minute or anything like that but it is a consistent theme running throughout the entire movie and this is based on my own experience, not what the internet says 😉 It’s one of the main things I recognised early on for myself when I started to internalise afterwards why I felt like shit after watching what was supposed to be a Star Wars movie.

Tell me what you think of this theory video. This is by the defunct YouTuber, Vincent Vendetta. He made this before The Last Jedi came out.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MoyGFgTIQXTW8jpxq2lECZVnUXgIccjD/view

Noah Lawson

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^ Sorry but I’m not interested in any theories or reading any books that “explain” things. If it’s not in the movie then it doesn’t form part of my initial understanding, feelings and reaction to it.

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Valheru_84 said:

^ Sorry but I’m not interested in any theories or reading any books that “explain” things. If it’s not in the movie then it doesn’t form part of my initial understanding, feelings and reaction to it.

At least give it a watch. It’s about the sequel trilogy.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

Valheru_84 said:

^ Sorry but I’m not interested in any theories or reading any books that “explain” things. If it’s not in the movie then it doesn’t form part of my initial understanding, feelings and reaction to it.

It’s about the sequel trilogy.

Hence why I’m not the least bit interested.

Sorry.