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Episode IX - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 49

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nl0428 said:

Does anyone thinks that Episode IX could bring the fan base back together, or will it still just make many mad? It makes me annoyed how critical and harsh people can be.

I hope Episode IX does bring the fan-base back together… though with the amount of monetised clickbait, negativity and toxicity written about Star Wars of late - some of it intentionally focusing on creating and continuing a polarision within the fan-base (insert keywords into videos and articles such as RJ, KK, Disney, Mary Sue, feminism, agendas, SJWs etc do/does this - and then rinse and repeat; with little to no facts, balance or responsibility required)… I somehow doubt it.

That’ll all be before any balanced or constructive criticism for any aspects some fans may not like or enjoy with Episode IX.

Though man, I hope to be wrong on that.
 

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nl0428 said:

Does anyone thinks that Episode IX could bring the fan base back together, or will it still just make many mad? It makes me annoyed how critical and harsh people can be.

It will be impossible for it not to make a significant portion of the fan base mad. Which portion? We will have to wait and see.

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DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

Does anyone thinks that Episode IX could bring the fan base back together, or will it still just make many mad? It makes me annoyed how critical and harsh people can be.

It will be impossible for it not to make a significant portion of the fan base mad. Which portion? We will have to wait and see.

It’s almost as if the prequels cemented a good chunk of the fan base into a negative hateful state ever since. It’s best to be known for what you love, not for what you hate. Being known for what you hate paints yourself in a unappealing way that turn others off from your thoughts and opinions. The point is, always stay positive and hopeful for good things to come in the near future.

Noah Lawson

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I don’t see anything wrong with someone disliking the Sequels, or any of the Star Wars films, as long as they’re respectful about it. These disagreements cause a lot of good debates and can inspire people to try to create fixes for perceived problems. There are plenty of people here that like the Prequels, and those that don’t. There’s no reason why it should be any different for the Disney films.

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Zachary VIII said:

I don’t see anything wrong with someone disliking the Sequels, or any of the Star Wars films, as long as they’re respectful about it. These disagreements cause a lot of good debates and can inspire people to try to create fixes for perceived problems. There are plenty of people here that like the Prequels, and those that don’t. There’s no reason why it should be any different for the Disney films.

I totally agree with you. It all comes down to approach, behavior, and attitude. We all have our likes and dislikes.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

I don’t see anything wrong with someone disliking the Sequels, or any of the Star Wars films, as long as they’re respectful about it. These disagreements cause a lot of good debates and can inspire people to try to create fixes for perceived problems. There are plenty of people here that like the Prequels, and those that don’t. There’s no reason why it should be any different for the Disney films.

I totally agree with you. It all comes down to approach, behavior, and attitude. We all have our likes and dislikes.

Yeah, that’s how I see it. The people who say stuff like “TLJ is the worst film of all time” are not being constructive or even explaining their criticisms in a coherent. I think the backlash will calm down after IX is released, and people will have more calm discussions about why they like or don’t like the trilogy.

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Finally, some actual fucking leaks:

leaked character looks

oofa doofa

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It would be a shame if Adam Driver spent most of the movie in the mask again. He’s such a fantastic actor.

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Apparently he ditches it halfway through.

oofa doofa

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Is that Lukes reassembled Light Saber at Reys belt? Hard to see, but there is something.

Who needs to see Rogue One? Just play the first mission of DARK FORCES 😉
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Yay! Lando! Did they dress Billy Dee in the costume from Solo, or is this a temp photoshop job?

Alien A is Maz’s and Yoda’s love child. 😛

And I can’t decide if if Alien N is Slenderman or Candlejack…

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Definitely the latter, if any. Really, though, it makes me think of grey aliens.

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snooker said:

Apparently he ditches it halfway through.

There’s no way Ben would go back to wearing a mask. The way he destroyed it in The Last Jedi perfectly shows how he is ditching the Darth Vader impersonator he’s been acting like and becoming his own force.

I also think it’s interesting that Lando is wearing the same yellow shirt he wore in Solo.

Noah Lawson

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TFA has tropes played straight, with objects intact. TLJ deconstructed tropes and the objects representing them (the saber and the helmet. Now IX is reconstructing the tropes and objects. Interesting visual metaphors.

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Anakin Starkiller said:

TFA has tropes played straight, with objects intact. TLJ deconstructed tropes and the objects representing them (the saber and the helmet. Now IX is reconstructing the tropes and objects. Interesting visual metaphors.

On the subject of Kylo’s mask, TLJ only made explicit a point TFA was already making.

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nl0428 said:

There’s no way Ben would go back to wearing a mask. The way he destroyed it in The Last Jedi perfectly shows how he is ditching the Darth Vader impersonator he’s been acting like and becoming his own force.

That is one interpretation. If Rey had joined him, I doubt he would’ve gone back to the mask. But after she rejected him, he is more alone than he has ever been. It is understandable that he would regress to constructing a Vader-esque identity as the new “emperor of the universe”. It’s like he finds comfort and purpose hiding his emotions behind that mask. And if his mask is has been put back together, with cracks all across it, it is a great visual metaphor for his internal struggle. I think Kylo Ren will appear more evil than he ever has, initially, before his possible redemption occurs.

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DominicCobb said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

TFA has tropes played straight, with objects intact. TLJ deconstructed tropes and the objects representing them (the saber and the helmet. Now IX is reconstructing the tropes and objects. Interesting visual metaphors.

On the subject of Kylo’s mask, TLJ only made explicit a point TFA was already making.

That sort of spelling-out kind of strips the subtlety and even dignity from the characters, don’t you think?

If the mask had been destroyed in TFA like the film implies, it would have meant that Kylo has developed as a character between movies to the point where he is comfortable owning his role in the galaxy. Instead the character is devolved and the mask briefly and awkwardly brought back so that we can laugh at its absurdity.

It’s the same for the rest of the characters, honestly.

Finn’s character is regressed almost back to Maz’s castle, where he has no interest in helping the Resistance and cares only for Rey. A reading of TFA where he’s not at least a little willing to help the Resistance would be really uncharitable. Do I even have to mention Rey, who got over her absent parents in TFA only to have that return as her defining character flaw? Or Hux, the human punching bag? Or Snoke, who is now half the character he used to be? The only character who feels like he isn’t regressed is Poe, who was so lightly sketched in TFA that any character change is positive.

I think that this is why, despite all the great aspects of TLJ, it feels so wrong to so many - it feels like the filmmakers had a dimmer view of the characters and tropes than the audience.

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NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

TFA has tropes played straight, with objects intact. TLJ deconstructed tropes and the objects representing them (the saber and the helmet. Now IX is reconstructing the tropes and objects. Interesting visual metaphors.

On the subject of Kylo’s mask, TLJ only made explicit a point TFA was already making.

That sort of spelling-out kind of strips the subtlety and even dignity from the characters, don’t you think?

If the mask had been destroyed in TFA like the film implies, it would have meant that Kylo has developed as a character between movies to the point where he is comfortable owning his role in the galaxy. Instead the character is devolved and the mask briefly and awkwardly brought back so that we can laugh at its absurdity.

Why should the character develop between films when TLJ happens immediately after? Kylo doesn’t shed his Vader worship in TFA, it’s only after he realizes that killing his father didn’t do what he thought it would that he does that. The explicitness in TLJ of the TFA deconstruction is important because it’s Ben having to face the facts and come to terms with what the audience can see is true, but he previously wouldn’t admit.

I’m not sure in what regard the character has devolved.

It’s the same for the rest of the characters, honestly.

Finn’s character is regressed almost back to Maz’s castle, where he has no interest in helping the Resistance and cares only for Rey. A reading of TFA where he’s not at least a little willing to help the Resistance would be really uncharitable.

Finn literally says on Starkiller base that he’s “only there to get Rey.” Obviously he’s a little willing to help the Resistance, he decides to help them in TLJ the second he realizes that there’s a way to jam the Supremacy’s tracker.

Do I even have to mention Rey, who got over her absent parents in TFA only to have that return as her defining character flaw?

When did Rey get over her parents exactly? She was able to move onto help the Resistance and not go back to Jakku, but I’m not sure why that should imply “I don’t care anything about my parents at all anymore and will never think about them again.” Not to mention, her fixation on her parents in TLJ is really just a fixation on how she sees and defines herself, which is not something she necessarily figured out in TFA.

Or Hux, the human punching bag?

Hux, the man who did so much in TFA and could never be a punching bag because he was so cool and badass?

Or Snoke, who is now half the character he used to be?

Is this a joke? Because he’s smaller now? Because he’s cut in half? Literally have no idea what else this might refer to. Snoke is a lot more clearly defined in TLJ and comes across a lot more dangerous.

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Gotta agree with Dom. I think after TFA, a lot of us felt that Kylo, after killing Han, would be transformed into a fully-realized villain. But TLJ just hammered down the fact that killing Han did not have the effect he was hoping for. Kylo is broken, just like his new mask illustrates. I personally think the Kintsugi-vibe with the red lacquer looks badass. Kylo is exactly where he thought he wanted to be this whole time, but he is not happy. He’s just doubling down on his mistakes like a sunken cost fallacy.

With Finn, his character arc has gone like this:
TFA: Wants to save himself —> wants to save Rey
TLJ: Wants to save Rey —> wants to save the Resistance
IX?: Wants to save the Resistance —> wants to save the Resistance AND the soldiers of the First Order (save the good guys and the “bad guys”)

Regarding Rey, in TFA, she was under the delusion that her parents would come back for her. In TLJ, she understood that they weren’t coming back, but she now was wondering why they weren’t coming back? Why did they abandon her? Did something happen to them? That, to me, is why she wanted to see her parents, and why it hurt so much to accept they didn’t actually care about her. Like Dom said, I think she had this fixed idea of who she was supposed to be in TFA, but she realized that wasn’t who she was meant to be. In TLJ, she is lost and trying to figure that out, and asking questions about her identity, like what is it that is awakening in her, and why her parents left her, are apart of that self-actualization.

I feel like people take Hux’s abuse so personally! It is really interesting. I felt that Hux actually had an iverse arc to that of Poe. Poe gets slapped, thrown across a room, and shot. Hux gets smacked to the floor, choked, and thrown against a wall. Hux is young and a little overconfident in his abilities, but by the end of TLJ you can see that he might be aware of his mistakes, like Poe, when he tries to stop Kylo Ren from taking Luke’s bait, and that might translate to him growing into a more competent enemy in IX. I mean, just look at the face he gives Kylo Ren at the end. I can’t really say too much about him, but if in IX Hux is eager to betray Kylo, then TLJ really helped set that resentment up.

Haha, Snoke being “half the character he used to be”! That is true literally, but to me Snoke was who he always was meant to be. Him being a red herring, a stepping stone for Kylo’s growth, is the best way they could have used him. The son of Han Solo and Princess Leia being the new Emperor of the Galaxy is such a great set up, and also being the head of a war against his own mother.

I honestly think some, not all of course, but some of people’s disappointments honestly come from expectation, as much as we don’t want to admit it. 10 years from now, when kids watch these movies back to back an don’t have to speculate for a year and a half who Snoke is, or what Luke is doing on that island, they won’t digest these films the same way a lot of people are now. I think it is the same reason why people seem to be coming around to the prequels now, in my opinion.

Just because we think a character’s arc is supposed to go a certain way doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be open minded about the direction they are deciding to take these characters, don’t you think? We can try to understand them and what the filmmakers are trying to say.

I mean, I hate that some people don’t enjoy these films. Not saying people are wrong for their own opinions. Just sharing my own because I want people to enjoy them like I do! That’s all.

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RogueLeader said:

Gotta agree with Dom. I think after TFA, a lot of us felt that Kylo, after killing Han, would be transformed into a fully-realized villain. But TLJ just hammered down the fact that killing Han did not have the effect he was hoping for. Kylo is broken, just like his new mask illustrates. I personally think the Kintsugi-vibe with the red lacquer looks badass. Kylo is exactly where he thought he wanted to be this whole time, but he is not happy. He’s just doubling down on his mistakes like a sunken cost fallacy.

I just think that if they really wanted to bring home the idea that TLJ picked up directly where TFA left off, they could have had Kylo meet Snoke without the mask, simply because it had been lost, and then he would have the opportunity in Ep 9 to make that more badass mask for himself and double down on his mistakes some more. It felt like a natural way to keep the mask off for a movie while still keeping his need for it.

With Finn, his character arc has gone like this:
TFA: Wants to save himself —> wants to save Rey
TLJ: Wants to save Rey —> wants to save the Resistance
IX?: Wants to save the Resistance —> wants to save the Resistance AND the soldiers of the First Order (save the good guys and the “bad guys”)

I feel like that’s a bit overly literal and a bit cynical of his character, since he clearly wants to save Rey from the moment he meets her. I hope that 9 goes the route you suggest, but everyone was hoping for this in 8 and instead we got the ‘Needs to learn to help the good guys’ thing which many people felt was unnecessary or a given.

Regarding Rey, in TFA, she was under the delusion that her parents would come back for her. In TLJ, she understood that they weren’t coming back, but she now was wondering why they weren’t coming back? Why did they abandon her? Did something happen to them? That, to me, is why she wanted to see her parents, and why it hurt so much to accept they didn’t actually care about her. Like Dom said, I think she had this fixed idea of who she was supposed to be in TFA, but she realized that wasn’t who she was meant to be. In TLJ, she is lost and trying to figure that out, and asking questions about her identity, like what is it that is awakening in her, and why her parents left her, are apart of that self-actualization.

I feel like people take Hux’s abuse so personally! It is really interesting. I felt that Hux actually had an iverse arc to that of Poe. Poe gets slapped, thrown across a room, and shot. Hux gets smacked to the floor, choked, and thrown against a wall. Hux is young and a little overconfident in his abilities, but by the end of TLJ you can see that he might be aware of his mistakes, like Poe, when he tries to stop Kylo Ren from taking Luke’s bait, and that might translate to him growing into a more competent enemy in IX. I mean, just look at the face he gives Kylo Ren at the end. I can’t really say too much about him, but if in IX Hux is eager to betray Kylo, then TLJ really helped set that resentment up.

Haha, Snoke being “half the character he used to be”! That is true literally, but to me Snoke was who he always was meant to be. Him being a red herring, a stepping stone for Kylo’s growth, is the best way they could have used him. The son of Han Solo and Princess Leia being the new Emperor of the Galaxy is such a great set up, and also being the head of a war against his own mother.

I honestly think some, not all of course, but some of people’s disappointments honestly come from expectation, as much as we don’t want to admit it. 10 years from now, when kids watch these movies back to back an don’t have to speculate for a year and a half who Snoke is, or what Luke is doing on that island, they won’t digest these films the same way a lot of people are now. I think it is the same reason why people seem to be coming around to the prequels now, in my opinion.

Just because we think a character’s arc is supposed to go a certain way doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be open minded about the direction they are deciding to take these characters, don’t you think? We can try to understand them and what the filmmakers are trying to say.

I mean, I hate that some people don’t enjoy these films. Not saying people are wrong for their own opinions. Just sharing my own because I want people to enjoy them like I do! That’s all.

I go back and forth with TLJ. Some days I really appreciate it, others the flaws and missed opportunities are all I can see. Yesterday was the latter, clearly. I think the thing that most bothered me is feeling that Rian believed in the characters less than I did, which is why so many have to spend time in remedial character-building exercises.

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RogueLeader said:

I mean, I hate that some people don’t enjoy these films. Not saying people are wrong for their own opinions. Just sharing my own because I want people to enjoy them like I do! That’s all.

I feel very mixed about TLJ. I like the Luke, Kylo and Rey interactions. I don’t understand most of the complaints about Luke not wanting to help the Resistance. I think it would have been a painfully predictable movie if Luke just packed his things and left with Rey, fought and killed some Knights of Ren with his green lightsaber, and sacrificed himself in a big explosion or something. At the same time, all of Canto Bight, and most of the snail paced chase between the First Order and Resistance fleet are boring and have some glaring plotholes.
Overall I think TLJ and RotJ are comparable in that the high points are really good but the low points are hard to watch. It’s a better film than TFA, but I wouldn’t really have any desire to casually watch an unedited version.

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I personally think the perspective people have on the B Plot, with Canto Bight and everything, is going to depend if those lessons carry over into Episode IX. How will we see Poe handle being a leader, will Finn act on the lesson of “saving what we love”, and will there be some kind of resolution to this original sin of war that TLJ sort of paints? Will they break the cycle? As the second act in a trilogy, I wonder if these things could be set ups that have pay offs in Episode IX.

And if they do, it could add value to all of those scenes. I could change my mind after Episode IX comes out, but atm that is personally why I disagree with cutting any important scenes of the B Plot.

I understand that the space chase feels slow (I’ve heard others suggest looking at it more as a siege rather than a chase), and the Fathier chase feeling pointless. Maybe the chase would’ve been more visually interesting if they were jumping in and out of hyperspace, or I can understand wanting to trim or cut the Fathier chase. I just think a lot of the conversations between characters add value to the story, and it might be important for what’s to come, too.

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RogueLeader said:

I personally think the perspective people have on the B Plot, with Canto Bight and everything, is going to depend if those lessons carry over into Episode IX. How will we see Poe handle being a leader, will Finn act on the lesson of “saving what we love”, and will there be some kind of resolution to this original sin of war that TLJ sort of paints? Will they break the cycle? As the second act in a trilogy, I wonder if these things could be set ups that have pay offs in Episode IX.

And if they do, it could add value to all of those scenes. I could change my mind after Episode IX comes out, but atm that is personally why I disagree with cutting any important scenes of the B Plot.

I understand that the space chase feels slow (I’ve heard others suggest looking at it more as a siege rather than a chase), and the Fathier chase feeling pointless. Maybe the chase would’ve been more visually interesting if they were jumping in and out of hyperspace, or I can understand wanting to trim or cut the Fathier chase. I just think a lot of the conversations between characters add value to the story, and it might be important for what’s to come, too.

Even if the themes from those B plots carry over to IX, the way those plots are implemented is still flawed and bogs down the movie IMO. All it needed was some tighter writing. But I know it’s impossible to perfectly fix those kinds of things in an edit, just like you can’t 100% fix how convoluted rescuing Han from Jabba in RotJ is, or how ridiculous the 100+ Jedi running around in the arena in AoC looks.

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I guess a lot of it boils down to perspective. I won’t ask about TLJ, but the Jabba rescue and the Jedi in the arena both work for me. The Han rescue used to be confusing to me, but in my head at least I’ve rationalized it.