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Episode IX - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 46

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While I do think Rey is suffering from emotional costs because of her growing abilities, I also believe there is this assumption that the Force is a static, unchanging thing, despite the idea the Force has changed or is changing in this new trilogy that is different than how it was in the previous trilogies. To me, this makes it unfair to even compare the protagonists on the basis of Force powers when the Force “awakening” is a plot point in these new movies.

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RogueLeader said:

While I do think Rey is suffering from emotional costs because of her growing abilities, I also believe there is this assumption that the Force is a static, unchanging thing, despite the idea the Force has changed or is changing in this new trilogy that is different than how it was in the previous trilogies. To me, this makes it unfair to even compare the protagonists on the basis of Force powers when the Force “awakening” is a plot point in these new movies.

I guess this is where I part company with many other fans. I don’t want the Force to be ‘sentient’ any more than I find it logical for electricity or gravity to be self-aware. I’ve always considered ‘balance’ or the Force ‘awakening’ (and by extension any kind of ‘Chosen One’ schtik) to be human/Jedi constructs - a kind of anthropomorphic way for the Jedi to account for things.

I don’t mind that Rey has huge potential, or that her upbringing fast-tracked certain aspects of her growth. It makes sense for example that she’d be more of a natural survivalist than Luke ever was - hence better fighting instincts and a heightened knack for sensing peril. But the Force (or using the Force) is more complicated than that. It’s the difference between having a natural ability and being an Olympic champion, or being great at Yoga but wanting to be a Zen master. Luke though he had it all licked when he went to Dagobah. Instead he discovered that being a ‘great warrior’ had little to do with being a Jedi, and that his emotional immaturity was a huge impediment. Ditto Anakin who, despite being potentially the greatest Jedi ever on genetic grounds alone, was on a one-way trip to complete failure as a result of not mastering his deeper emotions.

In the OT and PT the Force is all about emotions and mastering one’s deeper drives and instincts, honing one’s inner-self. That’s the beauty of it and that’s what separates mastering the Force from merely being good at kick-boxing or doing a mean bench-press. In the new series it’s like the latter. Rey merely blunders along and nails it all. There’s no downside, no emotional cost (beyond her not managing to make everyone else be as wonderful as she is), no threat of this survivalist barbarian-woman becoming a Sith, no moment where her unstoppable confidence is given pause in the face of a Force that is more complex than just ticking each skill-set on a spread-sheet.

I think it’s a shame because the idea of a ‘feral Jedi’ (and all the potential dangers that could entail) is absolutely fascinating in principle. Having some Conan-girl master the more aggressive aspects of the Force under the duress of a harsh environment, only to try to apply those skills in a discipline that requires complete inner-calm/balance and emotional clarity has endless scope for expanding the saga in a profound way. Instead it feels like JJ/Rian are just throwing the skills into the pot willy nilly and letting us fill the blanks for them.

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I don’t think the Force being dynamic doesn’t mean it is sentient. I think the Force awakening or being diminished can be compared to things like climate change. Even gravity or electricity can act differently when massive or conductive objects come into play. The Force changing doesn’t mean it has a will of its own, necessarily, even though the prequel Jedi seem to think so.

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The Force is drawing Rey and Ben together, even without the control by Snoke. It’s happened many times.

Noah Lawson

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ShoppingMaul, and this question is open to anyone, what are ways that you would like for them to approach Rey’s character in IX that would help address the issues you’ve had with her in 7 & 8?

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RogueLeader said:

I don’t think the Force being dynamic doesn’t mean it is sentient. I think the Force awakening or being diminished can be compared to things like climate change. Even gravity or electricity can act differently when massive or conductive objects come into play. The Force changing doesn’t mean it has a will of its own, necessarily, even though the prequel Jedi seem to think so.

I really like the idea mentioned elsewhere that the Force originally behaved more like a fundamental constant of the universe, but when Jedi started to figure out how to retain their sentience after death they began to guide the Force with much more purpose.

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RogueLeader said:

ShoppingMaul, and this question is open to anyone, what are ways that you would like for them to approach Rey’s character in IX that would help address the issues you’ve had with her in 7 & 8?

This is going to seem like a major copout but I honestly don’t know. The thing is, and this isn’t necessarily bad, I have absolutely no idea what’s in store for the next episode! And Rey is what she is. It would be silly to go back on what has been established (ie suddenly deciding she was Obi Wan’s niece or something equally dumb).

If you look at what speculations there were in 1980 surrounding Luke, there was so much to wonder about. Was Vader lying? Was Obi Wan lying? Would Luke turn to the Dark Side? Who was the ‘other’? It was a crazy time to be a fan.

I’m genuinely curious about ep IX but for entirely different reasons - mainly the fact that I honestly can’t imagine what’s left to be told!

By the way, to be clear, I don’t hate Rey at all and I love Daisy’s portrayal. I think all the characters are great. I just think the writing has been disappointing and an opportunity to really build on the existing lore and make something deep and significant has been squandered for mystery boxes and pretty visuals.

All I really can hope for is that ep IX ties this trilogy together in a way that gives it some weight, rather than just being a bunch of cool visuals/ideas glued together in a vaguely Star Wars way.

Sorry for the copout answer!

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No, that’s okay! I get what you’re saying. I definitely agree that Rey isn’t perfectly written, I think Lessons From the Screenplay explains it well in his video about TFA, I’m just prone to defending her because I think she (and the ST in general) is getting way too much flak than it deserves. But I know it comes from a place of passion, and fans just want these movies to be as good as possible.

A part of me always wonders what if Iger hadn’t felt rushed to get Episode VII out by 2015, maybe given Michael Ardnt the time he needed to finish his script, and maybe have 3 years of production between each film rather than just 2.
But, asking “what if’s” is pretty futile, because even George with complete creative control over the prequels still couldn’t make perfect movies, and I’m fairly happy with what we’ve gotten so far. And the movies that most fans consider to be near perfect (the OT, especially ANH and ESB, were probably the most constrained out of any of the films).

That is another interesting point. I have some theories about IX, but I still don’t know what to completely expect. For a lot of people, it seems this not-knowing was translated into apathy for Episode IX, but to me it was the complete opposite. People couldn’t see where the story could go, but to me that meant that JJ could go anywhere with the final film. He could set it a day after 8, a year after 8, five/ten years after 8. While he obviously has to conclude character arcs, he really has a sandbox to play in when it comes to how he wants to depict it. That is really exciting to me.

I don’t think there is only way to handle our main characters in IX, I do have some thoughts on how they can be handled. I think it would be interesting if Rey, who has been shown to be aggressive and not above killing, has to resolve issues through nonviolence like true Jedi should. I think for her, that would be a bigger challenge than just brute forcing her way through obstacles, especially when you’re in the middle of a war.

It would also be an interesting inverse to Luke, who killed people left and right in Return of the Jedi. And maybe I’m reading too much into it, but my mind goes to the scene where Rey is eagerly practicing with the lightsaber, and her lack of control causes her to cut through that rock and almost kill those caretakers. Yeah, it is a funny moment, but Luke clearly wasn’t amused by it. To me, that little moment was saying something about violence begetting violence, which carries over to Luke momentarily considering a violent solution to the dark future of Ben Solo, and it only causing the violence Luke’s foresaw to actually happen.

Anyway, not saying that has to happen, but it would be an interesting direction to take Rey, who was been portrayed as someone who is quick to anger. But I’m excited about not knowing what is going to happen.

Nev, that is an interesting thought! Are you kind of suggesting that the “will” that the Force might have might be related to past Jedi who have become one with the Force? That’s a really interesting idea.

It is almost paradoxical. If Jedi are meant to follow the will of the Force, but try to guide its will by becoming one with it, then are they not just going with the flow of the Force like they were to begin with?
I do think the Force has an ebb and flow, and when people try to bend the Force to their own selfish will, the Force reacts, but it does seem to be demonstrated that Force ghosts can enact the Force’s will in more direct ways, like communicating directly to certain people, so maybe they are do what the Force wills, just in clearer ways.

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SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

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Why would you even think about that?

Gone fishing

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Anakin Starkiller said:

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

I prefer to think that doesn’t exist in Star Wars.
———-

Concerning Rey in Episode 9. If I had creative input, here’s my pitch. TLJ clearly establishes a connection between Kylo and Rey. Episode 9 should use the time skip to its advantage and go full on Reylo. Rey thinks if she can get to him, he can still turn. Kylo thinks if he can get to her, she can still turn.

A Jedi and Sith relationship is a new angle to look at the force, but it goes beyond just that. Rey’s greatest weakness so far is her longing for family, and it makes sense for her to cling to someone. But Kylo Ren is a BAD person, and no matter what she thinks he isn’t going to turn it around.

This is a common trend in abusive relationships, which yes can be physical but are also emotional. Having Rey confront this weakness would be far better in my opinion than any super weapon the First Order throws.

By the end Rey has to give up Kylo and as such a chance at a family. But she can also learn to appreciate friendships like Finn (who will be with Rose). This is a lesson I think many can learn from, that relationships come and go but true friends can last forever, and to not continue to be ruled by darkness.

Granted I also want the theme of good and evil and the force explored, but I think this would be an interesting subplot to explore Rey’s part in the finale.

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As interesting as these speculative are, my interest in Episode IX was effectively ended when they announced Abrams was being brought back to the director’s chair.

The only movies where he was involved that I actually like are Armageddon (he was one of the scriptwriters IIRC) and Cloverfield (producer). I find any movie directed by him to be by-the-numbers yet everyone else loves them and hail him as a modern day genius. Maybe I’m just immune to the JJ Kool-Aid.

I fully expect Episode IX to be every bit as insipid as any other movie directed by him.

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Cool perspective! I definitely agree that if Kylo Ren is not going to be redeemed, then that is the way they’ll go.

I think Kylo Ren and Rey’s dynamic from the perspective of “bad boy that the girl thinks she can change” has been brought up a lot. Some people are really into Reylo while others see it as problematic.

If Kylo is not going to be redeemed in IX, then I agree with you that Rey will have to come to terms with that.

I think there is an approach to it though they might take if Ben will be redeemed. I personally think this is the route they’ll go since redemption, love and family are the big themes of the franchise, but I could be wrong, who knows!
I definitely think Rey was in that “I can change him” mindset in TLJ. She took a big risk thinking that she would be enough to change him, but that didn’t happen. In the end when Rey closed the doors on him, though, I think that is Rey deciding that she can’t be the one to change him herself, and if he is going to change, he must do it on his own. Which I think is a healthier message, you can try to help people, but after a certain point those people also have to make the effort to change themselves as well.

At the end of TLJ, Kylo Ren was the Supreme Leader of the First Order, and by the time IX roles around, he, Ben Solo, will practically be the Emperor of the Galaxy. Kind of cool to think about in the context of the whole saga. But ironically, he doesn’t seem very satisfied. He has everything he thought he wanted, but a piece of him knows that he is completely alone. Because of this, I think Ben is going to regress into his Kylo Ren persona even more, and really project pure evil because that’s all he has left.

I think inside of him he will be desperately clinging onto that persona, though. I could see this bothering some people who feel he is beyond redemption, because the trailers and first act of the movie will portray a pure evil Kylo.

But I’ll admit, I don’t really know how Rey will feel about Kylo in IX. I definitely think she’ll be conflicted, possibly stuck in between duty, philosophy, and possibly love.

At the end of the TLJ commentary, Rian talks about how he wanted to set them up for IX and he says that “they’re enemies, but complicated enemies.”

It is definitely a challenging struggle for the writers. Rey, as a protagonist, needs to have an influence on the direction of the narrative, but also Kylo’s change, if it happens, needs to be on his own to a degree.

I really don’t know what will happen and that is really exciting to me!

I’m sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but if the Sequel Trilogy had been released as 90s or 00s EU novels, where “plot holes” and internal characterization can be explored in more detail, combined with people’s own imaginations, I think fans would’ve eaten them up. I would have as a kid, at least. I can picture myself lying in bed reading the books or listening to audiotapes, freaking out over Han’s death, or Rey pulling the lightsaber in the forest. Kylo killing Snoke, Luke’s Force projection. Makes me want to be a kid again!

EDIT: fmalover, I totally see your POV, and it does worry me that JJ won’t conclude certain character arcs properly, but hopefully he’ll surprise us, or they already have the broad strokes mapped out, or Chris Terrio will help keep it interesting.

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I just realized that since we only just got this trilogy’s ‘big three’ in the same room at the end of TLJ, Ep9 will finally allow them to go on an adventure together. That fact alone could justify this movie, to say nothing of the Reylo business which I’m sure will be a strong focus.

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I think that Reylo can and should happen, but it will/would be up to Kylo. He clearly doesn’t know what he wants, and I think that could lead to him running back to Rey.

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SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

I didn’t mean the shirt scene was misplaced, just one of the only times she’s doing something that isn’t reacting to a line. It does make sense that she’d be a bit weird about it. No doubt she had to fend off advances that are beyond what the franchise normally addresses. Her life would have been a hell of a lot more uncomfortable than we see in that first film.

It just seems like we don’t see much beyond the surface with her in TLJ. She’s a major character in the story, maybe the major character, but she’s almost like a supporting character. Maybe some of that is Luke being back in the story. He really is THE major character of the franchise.

I don’t know really, I have a hard time remembering her in TLJ, where I remember her vividly in TFA. I hope they get back to her. With Snoke and Phasma gone, maybe it will free up story to devote to her.

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"Why are you here, Rey from nowhere?”

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RogueLeader said:

EDIT: fmalover, I totally see your POV, and it does worry me that JJ won’t conclude certain character arcs properly, but hopefully he’ll surprise us, or they already have the broad strokes mapped out, or Chris Terrio will help keep it interesting.

Well, the one arc I fully expect Abrams to conclude is the Kylo Ren/Hux rivalry, which Ran Johnson carried over to TLJ, and the final shot of Hux makes it clear he resents Kylo as Supreme Leader, a title he considers to be rightfully his.

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Um, there’s a side quest in the first KOTOR game where a thug has put a bounty on a waitress for rejecting his unwanted advances, so no, it’s not a taboo subject within the Star Wars narrative.

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That’s interesting you mention that, because I think that was a fundamental issue with early drafts of TFA. As soon as Luke is back in the story, the new characters suddenly felt like supporting characters. Michael Ardnt really struggled with that, and I think it was Kiri Hart who came up with the idea to make finding Luke the main goal of the first movie.

And while I personally think having Luke become one with the Force at the end of TLJ was not only thematically appropriate, but it also might’ve been sort of necessary to give the new heroes the spotlight for the last act of the trilogy. Yeah, I’m sure Luke will have a presence as a Force ghost to guide Rey, but Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose, they will be driving the story, along with Kylo Ren as the main antagonist for them to face, now that Snoke is gone.

And of course, it is heartbreaking that Carrie couldn’t film her last performance as Leia, but it is likely that Leia still would’ve been behind the scenes mostly, and I feel they will be able to fulfill whatever necessary role she was meant to fill with the extra footage they have. They seemed pretty confident that they have enough material (and aren’t they lucky they decided to cut a lot of her TFA scenes?). As long as they have enough for a few moments with the Resistance, and maybe one moment related to Ben/Kylo Ren, I think that will be enough. And by her playing a supporting role, it gives us more time for the young heroes to drive the story and be on screen together for the final film.

EDIT: Yeah, I’m definitely interested to see what happens with Hux. Either Hux tries to betray Kylo (which could be used to instigate Kylo’s turn), or Hux gets disposed of by Kylo, other First Order officers (or Stormtroopers turning against him), or just something totally random. I’d be surprised if he was just simply killed by the Resistance. I guess we’ll see though!

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OutboundFlight said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

I prefer to think that doesn’t exist in Star Wars.
———-

Concerning Rey in Episode 9. If I had creative input, here’s my pitch. TLJ clearly establishes a connection between Kylo and Rey. Episode 9 should use the time skip to its advantage and go full on Reylo. Rey thinks if she can get to him, he can still turn. Kylo thinks if he can get to her, she can still turn.

A Jedi and Sith relationship is a new angle to look at the force, but it goes beyond just that. Rey’s greatest weakness so far is her longing for family, and it makes sense for her to cling to someone. But Kylo Ren is a BAD person, and no matter what she thinks he isn’t going to turn it around.

This is a common trend in abusive relationships, which yes can be physical but are also emotional. Having Rey confront this weakness would be far better in my opinion than any super weapon the First Order throws.

By the end Rey has to give up Kylo and as such a chance at a family. But she can also learn to appreciate friendships like Finn (who will be with Rose). This is a lesson I think many can learn from, that relationships come and go but true friends can last forever, and to not continue to be ruled by darkness.

Granted I also want the theme of good and evil and the force explored, but I think this would be an interesting subplot to explore Rey’s part in the finale.

Ben Solo is a very conflicted person, and it’s incredibly sad to see what happened to him when he was younger. He even struggled to kill his father, and his mother. Even when he killed Han, he felt weakened by his act and almost regrets the decision he made. That’s one of the reasons why Snoke is furious with him at the beginning of The Last Jedi. I do believe that he will be redeemed and end up in a relationship with Rey in the end. Having Rey close the door on him is her way of telling him that he needs to discover where he truly belongs. He wants Rey to join him because he cannot trust his family, the Resistance, or the First Order anymore, but he also care tremendously about her. But since Rey has also become a voice for him, it will help him understand himself and why the decisions he’s made have led to this. That’s why he also looks down in defeat and upset when Rey leaves him at the end of The Last Jedi. It’s the beginning for him to understand himself, something that will carry over to Episode IX

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

I prefer to think that doesn’t exist in Star Wars.
———-

Concerning Rey in Episode 9. If I had creative input, here’s my pitch. TLJ clearly establishes a connection between Kylo and Rey. Episode 9 should use the time skip to its advantage and go full on Reylo. Rey thinks if she can get to him, he can still turn. Kylo thinks if he can get to her, she can still turn.

A Jedi and Sith relationship is a new angle to look at the force, but it goes beyond just that. Rey’s greatest weakness so far is her longing for family, and it makes sense for her to cling to someone. But Kylo Ren is a BAD person, and no matter what she thinks he isn’t going to turn it around.

This is a common trend in abusive relationships, which yes can be physical but are also emotional. Having Rey confront this weakness would be far better in my opinion than any super weapon the First Order throws.

By the end Rey has to give up Kylo and as such a chance at a family. But she can also learn to appreciate friendships like Finn (who will be with Rose). This is a lesson I think many can learn from, that relationships come and go but true friends can last forever, and to not continue to be ruled by darkness.

Granted I also want the theme of good and evil and the force explored, but I think this would be an interesting subplot to explore Rey’s part in the finale.

Ben Solo is a very conflicted person, and it’s incredibly sad to see what happened to him when he was younger. He even struggled to kill his father, and his mother. Even when he killed Han, he felt weakened by his act and almost regrets the decision he made. That’s one of the reasons why Snoke is furious with him at the beginning of The Last Jedi. I do believe that he will be redeemed and end up in a relationship with Rey in the end. Having Rey close the door on him is her way of telling him that he needs to discover where he truly belongs. He wants Rey to join him because he cannot trust his family, the Resistance, or the First Order anymore, but he also care tremendously about her. But since Rey has also become a voice for him, it will help him understand himself and why the decisions he’s made have led to this. That’s why he also looks down in defeat and upset when Rey leaves him at the end of The Last Jedi. It’s the beginning for him to understand himself, something that will carry over to Episode IX

I agree redemption is certainly likely for him, but in my opinion it would be a cop out. Darth Vader shows far less emotion than Ben, and he was redeemed. The saga has established at this point anyone can be redeemed.

So if Space Hitler can be redeemed, is it any surprise Space Nixon can be redeemed? It would be a retred of the OT’s themes. This is why I think Ben shouldn’t be turned.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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OutboundFlight said:

nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

I prefer to think that doesn’t exist in Star Wars.
———-

Concerning Rey in Episode 9. If I had creative input, here’s my pitch. TLJ clearly establishes a connection between Kylo and Rey. Episode 9 should use the time skip to its advantage and go full on Reylo. Rey thinks if she can get to him, he can still turn. Kylo thinks if he can get to her, she can still turn.

A Jedi and Sith relationship is a new angle to look at the force, but it goes beyond just that. Rey’s greatest weakness so far is her longing for family, and it makes sense for her to cling to someone. But Kylo Ren is a BAD person, and no matter what she thinks he isn’t going to turn it around.

This is a common trend in abusive relationships, which yes can be physical but are also emotional. Having Rey confront this weakness would be far better in my opinion than any super weapon the First Order throws.

By the end Rey has to give up Kylo and as such a chance at a family. But she can also learn to appreciate friendships like Finn (who will be with Rose). This is a lesson I think many can learn from, that relationships come and go but true friends can last forever, and to not continue to be ruled by darkness.

Granted I also want the theme of good and evil and the force explored, but I think this would be an interesting subplot to explore Rey’s part in the finale.

Ben Solo is a very conflicted person, and it’s incredibly sad to see what happened to him when he was younger. He even struggled to kill his father, and his mother. Even when he killed Han, he felt weakened by his act and almost regrets the decision he made. That’s one of the reasons why Snoke is furious with him at the beginning of The Last Jedi. I do believe that he will be redeemed and end up in a relationship with Rey in the end. Having Rey close the door on him is her way of telling him that he needs to discover where he truly belongs. He wants Rey to join him because he cannot trust his family, the Resistance, or the First Order anymore, but he also care tremendously about her. But since Rey has also become a voice for him, it will help him understand himself and why the decisions he’s made have led to this. That’s why he also looks down in defeat and upset when Rey leaves him at the end of The Last Jedi. It’s the beginning for him to understand himself, something that will carry over to Episode IX

I agree redemption is certainly likely for him, but in my opinion it would be a cop out. Darth Vader shows far less emotion than Ben, and he was redeemed. The saga has established at this point anyone can be redeemed.

So if Space Hitler can be redeemed, is it any surprise Space Nixon can be redeemed? It would be a retred of the OT’s themes. This is why I think Ben shouldn’t be turned.

It wouldn’t be a cop out, and not to mention, the themes of the original trilogy will always be present in the saga. It was present in the prequels, it is in the sequels, and it will continue to be thriving within the saga. They are what make Star Wars, Star Wars. Star Wars has not been intended to present messages of revenge, hatred, lust and murder, it has always been about forgiveness and how good people can follow down a dark path, and about their internal conflict between good and evil.

"Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate …leads to suffering.

  • Yoda, The Phantom Menace

Noah Lawson

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 (Edited)

nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

I prefer to think that doesn’t exist in Star Wars.
———-

Concerning Rey in Episode 9. If I had creative input, here’s my pitch. TLJ clearly establishes a connection between Kylo and Rey. Episode 9 should use the time skip to its advantage and go full on Reylo. Rey thinks if she can get to him, he can still turn. Kylo thinks if he can get to her, she can still turn.

A Jedi and Sith relationship is a new angle to look at the force, but it goes beyond just that. Rey’s greatest weakness so far is her longing for family, and it makes sense for her to cling to someone. But Kylo Ren is a BAD person, and no matter what she thinks he isn’t going to turn it around.

This is a common trend in abusive relationships, which yes can be physical but are also emotional. Having Rey confront this weakness would be far better in my opinion than any super weapon the First Order throws.

By the end Rey has to give up Kylo and as such a chance at a family. But she can also learn to appreciate friendships like Finn (who will be with Rose). This is a lesson I think many can learn from, that relationships come and go but true friends can last forever, and to not continue to be ruled by darkness.

Granted I also want the theme of good and evil and the force explored, but I think this would be an interesting subplot to explore Rey’s part in the finale.

Ben Solo is a very conflicted person, and it’s incredibly sad to see what happened to him when he was younger. He even struggled to kill his father, and his mother. Even when he killed Han, he felt weakened by his act and almost regrets the decision he made. That’s one of the reasons why Snoke is furious with him at the beginning of The Last Jedi. I do believe that he will be redeemed and end up in a relationship with Rey in the end. Having Rey close the door on him is her way of telling him that he needs to discover where he truly belongs. He wants Rey to join him because he cannot trust his family, the Resistance, or the First Order anymore, but he also care tremendously about her. But since Rey has also become a voice for him, it will help him understand himself and why the decisions he’s made have led to this. That’s why he also looks down in defeat and upset when Rey leaves him at the end of The Last Jedi. It’s the beginning for him to understand himself, something that will carry over to Episode IX

I agree redemption is certainly likely for him, but in my opinion it would be a cop out. Darth Vader shows far less emotion than Ben, and he was redeemed. The saga has established at this point anyone can be redeemed.

So if Space Hitler can be redeemed, is it any surprise Space Nixon can be redeemed? It would be a retred of the OT’s themes. This is why I think Ben shouldn’t be turned.

It wouldn’t be a cop out, and not to mention, the themes of the original trilogy will always be present in the saga. It was present in the prequels, it is in the sequels, and it will continue to be thriving within the saga. They are what make Star Wars, Star Wars. Star Wars has not been intended to present messages of revenge, hatred, lust and murder, it has always been about forgiveness and how good people can follow down a dark path, and about their internal conflict between good and evil.

"Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate …leads to suffering.

  • Yoda, The Phantom Menace

The Prequel Trilogy has an interesting premise: a good man turns evil. It shows us many of the same OT themes but inverts them into a “don’t do this” instead of “do this”. The execution is terribly done, but the premise is there.

If Kylo turns back to the light, the ST will be a thematic redo of the OT. It will have nothing new to say. We do not need to see the same story repeat.

I can’t speak for others, but for myself a big part of the ST hype was seeing where the saga would go beyond RotJ. I don’t mean the original trio- I knew all along they would be replaced- but the galaxy and the themes it would present. Episode 9 is the make or break point for me, where the ST will choose to be a worthy part of the saga or a flashier OT.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

Author
Time
 (Edited)

OutboundFlight said:

nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

nl0428 said:

OutboundFlight said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

SilverWook said:

I don’t think Rey ever had time or a safe place to explore dating on Jakku, (there’s no evidence she ever even had a casual friend) so her discomfort with seeing Ben shirtless made sense to me. The movies would likely never broach the subject, but her fighting skills are as much about keeping lecherous scavengers at bay as it is daily survival on a hostile planet.

So do you guys think she ever had an…unfortunate encounter?

I prefer to think that doesn’t exist in Star Wars.
———-

Concerning Rey in Episode 9. If I had creative input, here’s my pitch. TLJ clearly establishes a connection between Kylo and Rey. Episode 9 should use the time skip to its advantage and go full on Reylo. Rey thinks if she can get to him, he can still turn. Kylo thinks if he can get to her, she can still turn.

A Jedi and Sith relationship is a new angle to look at the force, but it goes beyond just that. Rey’s greatest weakness so far is her longing for family, and it makes sense for her to cling to someone. But Kylo Ren is a BAD person, and no matter what she thinks he isn’t going to turn it around.

This is a common trend in abusive relationships, which yes can be physical but are also emotional. Having Rey confront this weakness would be far better in my opinion than any super weapon the First Order throws.

By the end Rey has to give up Kylo and as such a chance at a family. But she can also learn to appreciate friendships like Finn (who will be with Rose). This is a lesson I think many can learn from, that relationships come and go but true friends can last forever, and to not continue to be ruled by darkness.

Granted I also want the theme of good and evil and the force explored, but I think this would be an interesting subplot to explore Rey’s part in the finale.

Ben Solo is a very conflicted person, and it’s incredibly sad to see what happened to him when he was younger. He even struggled to kill his father, and his mother. Even when he killed Han, he felt weakened by his act and almost regrets the decision he made. That’s one of the reasons why Snoke is furious with him at the beginning of The Last Jedi. I do believe that he will be redeemed and end up in a relationship with Rey in the end. Having Rey close the door on him is her way of telling him that he needs to discover where he truly belongs. He wants Rey to join him because he cannot trust his family, the Resistance, or the First Order anymore, but he also care tremendously about her. But since Rey has also become a voice for him, it will help him understand himself and why the decisions he’s made have led to this. That’s why he also looks down in defeat and upset when Rey leaves him at the end of The Last Jedi. It’s the beginning for him to understand himself, something that will carry over to Episode IX

I agree redemption is certainly likely for him, but in my opinion it would be a cop out. Darth Vader shows far less emotion than Ben, and he was redeemed. The saga has established at this point anyone can be redeemed.

So if Space Hitler can be redeemed, is it any surprise Space Nixon can be redeemed? It would be a retred of the OT’s themes. This is why I think Ben shouldn’t be turned.

It wouldn’t be a cop out, and not to mention, the themes of the original trilogy will always be present in the saga. It was present in the prequels, it is in the sequels, and it will continue to be thriving within the saga. They are what make Star Wars, Star Wars. Star Wars has not been intended to present messages of revenge, hatred, lust and murder, it has always been about forgiveness and how good people can follow down a dark path, and about their internal conflict between good and evil.

"Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate …leads to suffering.

  • Yoda, The Phantom Menace

The Prequel Trilogy has an interesting premise: a good man turns evil. It shows us many of the same OT themes but inverts them into a “don’t do this” instead of “do this”. The execution is terribly done, but the premise is there.

If Kylo turns back to the light, the ST will be a thematic redo of the OT. It will have nothing new to say. We do not need to see the same story repeat.

I can’t speak for others, but for myself a big part of the ST hype was seeing where the saga would go beyond RotJ. I don’t mean the original trio- I knew all along they would be replaced- but the galaxy and the themes it would present. Episode 9 is the make or break point for me, where the ST will choose to be a worthy part of the saga or a flashier OT.

Unlike Vader, Ben won’t die. It would be a waste if he did get redeemed and die in Episode IX. Anakin, on the other hand, had a full complete life. His story was finished in Return of the Jedi. If Lucasfilm wants to make Episodes X, XI and XII sometime in the future, they should have it be built and focused on Rey, Ben and their kids.

Noah Lawson