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Episode IX - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 44

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Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?

IMO they will be kind of like how the prequels are viewed today. Where there’s some who still dislike every aspect of them, but most will have learned to live with the bad parts and enjoy the good.

I’m hoping that the sequel trilogy will be viewed today the way The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi are viewed today. When they first came out, The Empire Strikes Back received mixed reviews, and there were a good number of people that thought Return of the Jedi was a bad movie. Now they are both loved by everyone.

Noah Lawson

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 (Edited)

nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?

IMO they will be kind of like how the prequels are viewed today. Where there’s some who still dislike every aspect of them, but most will have learned to live with the bad parts and enjoy the good.

Return of the Jedi… loved by everyone.

Nope.
It’s a good movie, but many consider it a let down. In many ways, the “Beginning of the End”.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Anakin Starkiller said:

The real question is whether the ST will be more loved than the PT.

I think the movies will. But the video games, books, comics and cartoons that expand the PT era will be viewed as better than the ST era expanded universe.

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 (Edited)

Zachary VIII said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

The real question is whether the ST will be more loved than the PT.

I think the movies will. But the video games, books, comics and cartoons that expand the PT era will be viewed as better than the ST era expanded universe.

I disagree. The other forms of media helped fill in plot holes that Lucas made in the prequels, and while they are better than the prequels, I would not say that they’re better than the sequel trilogy. Not to get off topic, but in my opinion, I did think the original Clone Wars micro-series was the most underrated piece of Star Wars content yet, and I thought Filoni’s series was VERY hit and miss. As for the sequel trilogy expanded universe, it’s good, but it’s still young in the amount of content compared to the twenty years of expanded content the prequels received. Let’s just see where it goes and just let it grow.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

The real question is whether the ST will be more loved than the PT.

I think the movies will. But the video games, books, comics and cartoons that expand the PT era will be viewed as better than the ST era expanded universe.

I disagree. The other forms of media helped fill in plot holes that Lucas made in the prequels, and while they are better than the prequels, I would not say that they’re better than the sequel trilogy. Not to get off topic, but in my opinion, I did think the original Clone Wars micro-series was the most underrated piece of Star Wars content yet, and I thought Filoni’s series was VERY hit and miss. As for the sequel trilogy expanded universe, it’s good, but it’s still young in the amount of content compared to the twenty years of expanded content the prequels received. Let’s just see where it goes and just let it grow.

Even in the first few years of the PT, there was already a ton of new content because of the Clone Wars multimedia project. Especially in the area of video games, the early 2000’s gave us Battlefront, KOTOR, Republic Commando, Star Wars: Galaxies etc. So far all we’ve got from EA in the nearly 6 years since they got the rights to Star Wars games are 2 very mediocre Battlefront remakes. Also, say what you will about both Clone Wars series’, but they’re both certainly better than Resistance. I hope that the ST period gets some expansion, but it seems to be developing way slower than the PT expanded universe.

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 (Edited)

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

The real question is whether the ST will be more loved than the PT.

I think the movies will. But the video games, books, comics and cartoons that expand the PT era will be viewed as better than the ST era expanded universe.

I disagree. The other forms of media helped fill in plot holes that Lucas made in the prequels, and while they are better than the prequels, I would not say that they’re better than the sequel trilogy. Not to get off topic, but in my opinion, I did think the original Clone Wars micro-series was the most underrated piece of Star Wars content yet, and I thought Filoni’s series was VERY hit and miss. As for the sequel trilogy expanded universe, it’s good, but it’s still young in the amount of content compared to the twenty years of expanded content the prequels received. Let’s just see where it goes and just let it grow.

Even in the first few years of the PT, there was already a ton of new content because of the Clone Wars multimedia project. Especially in the area of video games, the early 2000’s gave us Battlefront, KOTOR, Republic Commando, Star Wars: Galaxies etc. So far all we’ve got from EA in the nearly 6 years since they got the rights to Star Wars games are 2 very mediocre Battlefront remakes. Also, say what you will about both Clone Wars series’, but they’re both certainly better than Resistance. I hope that the ST period gets some expansion, but it seems to be developing way slower than the PT expanded universe.

Definitely slower, but remember that a lot of PT content came after the movies (TCW premiered in 08, and we already have far more content from Resistance than we had from the contemporary Clone Wars series - quality aside). Don’t forget too that saying the Clone Wars multimedia project was “in the first few years of the PT” is inaccurate, as that didn’t kick off until after AOTC came out (and then continued after ROTS). There was definitely more, but it’s easy to misremember what came out when (not to mention, the PT had two extra years to fill out).

I think that, in-universe eras aside, there’s an argument to be made that the Disney years have been just as good when it comes to books and comics. Video game-wise things were indisputably better when LucasArts was still around (though the new Battlefronts are far from “mediocre”).

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DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

Interesting POV. Where exactly does the film say otherwise?

The film is saying that Luke’s actions are inspiring the whole galaxy to follow his example. The kid on Canto Bight is just a random kid, just like Rey. It’s saying anyone can use the force, whether they’re poor and oppressed or their parents were nothing or whatever. For them, their force powers are because of their own belief in themselves and their ability to be part of something greater than their circumstance would typically allow for.

Anything else about Luke dying and the force choosing someone like you said is just fan theory.

I think the point is that a powerful force user can arise from anywhere.

And there is some misconception about the Force as it is presented in the previous two trilogies. We never are shown that it is hard to learn force powers. Someone must teach. What is hard is avoiding the temptation of the dark side. What requires years of training is the perfection of the skills and learning the fine control. Luke learned to deflect blaster bolts during one short lesson on the Falcon. He figured out how to pick up his light saber with no additional training. He doubted he could lift his X-wing and Yoda showed him that it could be done (by then he had been levitating many things). The only thing we see Rey do in TFA is pick up on all the skills that Kylo Ren demonstrates or tries to use on her. This idea that she didn’t have to work for these things and Luke did is bogus. And in all three trilogies our force powerful hero can fly and fix anything, even if they have never touched one before. Anakin flies the Naboo starfighter, Luke the X-wing, Rey the Falcon (and only Rey had issues and nearly crashes). Of the three, Rey is the only one skilled in combat before we meet them. She is never shown mastering anything any faster than Luke did.

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DominicCobb said:

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

The real question is whether the ST will be more loved than the PT.

I think the movies will. But the video games, books, comics and cartoons that expand the PT era will be viewed as better than the ST era expanded universe.

I disagree. The other forms of media helped fill in plot holes that Lucas made in the prequels, and while they are better than the prequels, I would not say that they’re better than the sequel trilogy. Not to get off topic, but in my opinion, I did think the original Clone Wars micro-series was the most underrated piece of Star Wars content yet, and I thought Filoni’s series was VERY hit and miss. As for the sequel trilogy expanded universe, it’s good, but it’s still young in the amount of content compared to the twenty years of expanded content the prequels received. Let’s just see where it goes and just let it grow.

Even in the first few years of the PT, there was already a ton of new content because of the Clone Wars multimedia project. Especially in the area of video games, the early 2000’s gave us Battlefront, KOTOR, Republic Commando, Star Wars: Galaxies etc. So far all we’ve got from EA in the nearly 6 years since they got the rights to Star Wars games are 2 very mediocre Battlefront remakes. Also, say what you will about both Clone Wars series’, but they’re both certainly better than Resistance. I hope that the ST period gets some expansion, but it seems to be developing way slower than the PT expanded universe.

Definitely slower, but remember that a lot of PT content came after the movies (TCW premiered in 08, and we already have far more content from Resistance than we had from the contemporary Clone Wars series - quality aside). Don’t forget too that saying the Clone Wars multimedia project was “in the first few years of the PT” is inaccurate, as that didn’t kick off until after AOTC came out (and then continued after ROTS). There was definitely more, but it’s easy to misremember what came out when (not to mention, the PT had two extra years to fill out).

I think that, in-universe eras aside, there’s an argument to be made that the Disney years have been just as good when it comes to books and comics. Video game-wise things were indisputably better when LucasArts was still around (though the new Battlefronts are far from “mediocre”).

Maybe, I still remember there being way more stuff when the Prequels came out, though I was fairly young, so that may be why. Hopefully the early 2020s will have some good stuff. Also, the new Battlefronts have a ton of problems that are well documented. Jim Sterling recently did a pretty good video on EA’s Battlefront games.

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Zachary VIII said:

DominicCobb said:

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

The real question is whether the ST will be more loved than the PT.

I think the movies will. But the video games, books, comics and cartoons that expand the PT era will be viewed as better than the ST era expanded universe.

I disagree. The other forms of media helped fill in plot holes that Lucas made in the prequels, and while they are better than the prequels, I would not say that they’re better than the sequel trilogy. Not to get off topic, but in my opinion, I did think the original Clone Wars micro-series was the most underrated piece of Star Wars content yet, and I thought Filoni’s series was VERY hit and miss. As for the sequel trilogy expanded universe, it’s good, but it’s still young in the amount of content compared to the twenty years of expanded content the prequels received. Let’s just see where it goes and just let it grow.

Even in the first few years of the PT, there was already a ton of new content because of the Clone Wars multimedia project. Especially in the area of video games, the early 2000’s gave us Battlefront, KOTOR, Republic Commando, Star Wars: Galaxies etc. So far all we’ve got from EA in the nearly 6 years since they got the rights to Star Wars games are 2 very mediocre Battlefront remakes. Also, say what you will about both Clone Wars series’, but they’re both certainly better than Resistance. I hope that the ST period gets some expansion, but it seems to be developing way slower than the PT expanded universe.

Definitely slower, but remember that a lot of PT content came after the movies (TCW premiered in 08, and we already have far more content from Resistance than we had from the contemporary Clone Wars series - quality aside). Don’t forget too that saying the Clone Wars multimedia project was “in the first few years of the PT” is inaccurate, as that didn’t kick off until after AOTC came out (and then continued after ROTS). There was definitely more, but it’s easy to misremember what came out when (not to mention, the PT had two extra years to fill out).

I think that, in-universe eras aside, there’s an argument to be made that the Disney years have been just as good when it comes to books and comics. Video game-wise things were indisputably better when LucasArts was still around (though the new Battlefronts are far from “mediocre”).

Maybe, I still remember there being way more stuff when the Prequels came out, though I was fairly young, so that may be why. Hopefully the early 2020s will have some good stuff. Also, the new Battlefronts have a ton of problems that are well documented. Jim Sterling recently did a pretty good video on EA’s Battlefront games.

I was young too, so most of the stuff I remember is the wealth of kid-oriented content - exactly the kind of stuff that exists now that we, being older and not the target demo, aren’t even aware of.

As for the Battlefronts, I don’t need to watch a video. I have played both games quite a bit. The biggest things the fans complained about during each game’s rollout have been fixed at this point.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

Zachary VIII said:

DominicCobb said:

Zachary VIII said:

nl0428 said:

Zachary VIII said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

The real question is whether the ST will be more loved than the PT.

I think the movies will. But the video games, books, comics and cartoons that expand the PT era will be viewed as better than the ST era expanded universe.

I disagree. The other forms of media helped fill in plot holes that Lucas made in the prequels, and while they are better than the prequels, I would not say that they’re better than the sequel trilogy. Not to get off topic, but in my opinion, I did think the original Clone Wars micro-series was the most underrated piece of Star Wars content yet, and I thought Filoni’s series was VERY hit and miss. As for the sequel trilogy expanded universe, it’s good, but it’s still young in the amount of content compared to the twenty years of expanded content the prequels received. Let’s just see where it goes and just let it grow.

Even in the first few years of the PT, there was already a ton of new content because of the Clone Wars multimedia project. Especially in the area of video games, the early 2000’s gave us Battlefront, KOTOR, Republic Commando, Star Wars: Galaxies etc. So far all we’ve got from EA in the nearly 6 years since they got the rights to Star Wars games are 2 very mediocre Battlefront remakes. Also, say what you will about both Clone Wars series’, but they’re both certainly better than Resistance. I hope that the ST period gets some expansion, but it seems to be developing way slower than the PT expanded universe.

Definitely slower, but remember that a lot of PT content came after the movies (TCW premiered in 08, and we already have far more content from Resistance than we had from the contemporary Clone Wars series - quality aside). Don’t forget too that saying the Clone Wars multimedia project was “in the first few years of the PT” is inaccurate, as that didn’t kick off until after AOTC came out (and then continued after ROTS). There was definitely more, but it’s easy to misremember what came out when (not to mention, the PT had two extra years to fill out).

I think that, in-universe eras aside, there’s an argument to be made that the Disney years have been just as good when it comes to books and comics. Video game-wise things were indisputably better when LucasArts was still around (though the new Battlefronts are far from “mediocre”).

Maybe, I still remember there being way more stuff when the Prequels came out, though I was fairly young, so that may be why. Hopefully the early 2020s will have some good stuff. Also, the new Battlefronts have a ton of problems that are well documented. Jim Sterling recently did a pretty good video on EA’s Battlefront games.

I was young too, so most of the stuff I remember is the wealth of kid-oriented content - exactly the kind of stuff that exists now that we, being older and not the target demo, aren’t even aware of.

As for the Battlefronts, I don’t need to watch a video. I have played both games quite a bit. The biggest things the fans complained about during each game’s rollout have been fixed at this point.

Even though this discussion is about Episode IX, I do agree with you about the way EA is handling the Star Wars games. I too am also very disappointed with their reputation with the Star Wars license. Not every Star Wars game LucasArts put out was good, but there were many memorable and good games to come out from them. But yes, I was also upset when I heard that they shut down.

Noah Lawson

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OutboundFlight said:

screams in the void said:

sounds reasonable to me …and wasn’t there something in the prequels about a "chosen one "?

The really weird thing about the chosen one was TPM started with utter peace.

Would have made more sense if say, the galaxy had been at war for centuries, like in KOTOR. I can only assume the prophecy was calling for “balance” by the force supporting his turn to the dark side and killing all but 2 Jedi and 2 Sith.

To my understanding, the dark side isn’t good. With the light side, the force is a Jedi’s ally. With the dark side, the force is an abused power. I don’t understand why a sentient force would support “balance”, because at no point does the dark side appear good. The Jedi were flawed yes, but partially turning to the dark side wouldn’t solve any of their problems.

It’s not weird considering the darkness that was rising in the shadows, and the eventual war and bloodshed that followed in the wake of TPM.

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SWOTFAN25 said:

OutboundFlight said:

screams in the void said:

sounds reasonable to me …and wasn’t there something in the prequels about a "chosen one "?

The really weird thing about the chosen one was TPM started with utter peace.

Would have made more sense if say, the galaxy had been at war for centuries, like in KOTOR. I can only assume the prophecy was calling for “balance” by the force supporting his turn to the dark side and killing all but 2 Jedi and 2 Sith.

To my understanding, the dark side isn’t good. With the light side, the force is a Jedi’s ally. With the dark side, the force is an abused power. I don’t understand why a sentient force would support “balance”, because at no point does the dark side appear good. The Jedi were flawed yes, but partially turning to the dark side wouldn’t solve any of their problems.

It’s not weird considering the darkness that was rising in the shadows, and the eventual war and bloodshed that followed in the wake of TPM.

Yes, but to Jedi not believing the Sith are dead why has the chosen one arrived now? The only reasonable interpretation is that “balance” does not mean destruction of the dark side but equality between light and dark, in which case the Jedi have far more than the Sith. Did they know Anakin would turn evil all along?

Or are they just really, really stupid?

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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nl0428 said:

Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?

Well, they say ESB and RotJ were both divisive upon initial release, for different reasons, but are now just as loved as the original film (ESB much more so, for many).

The PT was in some ways a reversal; where people said they liked each film upon initial release, but then admitted shortly after that they were “blinded by the hype.” Then, over the course of a decade-and-a-half, those films went on to be universally disdained by the general public, along with a very vocal segment of the fanbase (that were mostly Generation X’ers that grew up with the OT). Now that Millennials are older and have more of a voice on the Internet, however, the PT is beginning to now develop more of a positive reputation, since many Millennials grew up with the PT and consider it to be “their Star Wars.”

Also, both Gen X’ers and Millennials now have the Disney films to compare them to, which aren’t necessarily “better” or “worse.” They just have “opposite problems,” so to speak. For instance, the PT is often criticized for being too different, too slow, too exposition-y, too much of one man’s unfiltered vision, etc. Whereas the Disney films are often criticized for being too similar, too fast, too “empty” (not enough exposition to explain the worldbuilding), too much of a “committee think tank” feel with no clear auteur leading the vision, etc. It’s all a matter of preference, really.

If we wanna break it down even more, Gen X’ers seem to forgive TFA’s derivative-ness more so than Millennials (from what I can tell). TLJ couldn’t “play it safe” again and couldn’t really integrate more of that PT feel for the Millennials since it had to work off of TFA, which established a very OT-like feel. So the only thing really left for the movie to do was burn it all down both literally (Resistance reduced to just a dozen people on the Falcon, “big bad” killed off one movie ahead of schedule, etc.) as well as figuratively (the tree burning, “let the past die,” etc.). So, unless you’re into deconstructionism, you’re probably not gonna be into TLJ, especially if you’re a Gen X’er who’s super-sensitive about “their Star Wars.”

I think for current generations, the ST’s longterm legacy will depend on how IX turns out. They could try to win back the Gen X’er’s by tying it full circle to the OT, or they could try to win over Millennials by tying it full circle to the PT somehow, or they could try as hard as they can to make everyone happy by tying it all full circle into both of the old eras in different literal and figurative ways. If they manage to pull something like this off, it might make most current haters feel that maybe the ST was worth it in the end after all. We’ll see, I guess.

…Or, if they really wanted to be bold, they can just forget about everything we once knew and fully embrace the idea of doing something completely different, but this would probably mostly only resonate with kids growing up on Star Wars right now and onward, and given the current state of the fandom, I don’t think that’s what Disney wants to do right now. Not anymore, at least. Maybe they were leaning that way back when Trevorrow was at the helm, but certainly not now.

With that being said, I think future films like the D&D series and the Johnson trilogy will look to aim more towards contemporary and future audiences (Gen Z and beyond). That same audience probably enjoys the ST also cause they’re growing up now on it, so that’s “their Star Wars.” So when they take over from Millennials in a decade or so as the primary voice of the Internet, the ST will develop a “retrospective love” type of relationship, much like the PT is now.

TLDR Version: Gen X’ers and Millennials will eventually phase out, and with them, so will a lot of the hate for the PT and ST, respectively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Budu1ux09Rs

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There were plenty of people who hated TPM right out of the gate. The Jar Jar hate machine started before the movie came out. There were many plot leaks back then compared to now. It was the golden age of spoiler websites. Weird Al wrote The Saga Begins before even seeing TPM, just using the leaks.

Among all the prequel characters that appear in Disney parks, Jar Jar is noticeably absent.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Weird Al wrote The Saga Begins before even seeing TPM, just using the leaks.

Did not know this. Interesting tidbit for the day 😛

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rocknroll41 said:

TLDR Version: Gen X’ers and Millennials will eventually phase out, and with them, so will a lot of the hate for the PT and ST, respectively.

I agree (we had this argument recently and I took some shit for saying this, but it makes sense).

One thing that’s interesting to note (interpret this how you will)…

Adjusted Box Office for Star Wars films:

  1. Star Wars
  2. The Force Awakens
  3. Empire Strikes Back
  4. Return of the Jedi
  5. The Phantom Menace
  6. The Last Jedi
  7. Rogue One
  8. Revenge of the Sith
  9. Attack of the Clones
  10. Solo
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DominicCobb said:

rocknroll41 said:

TLDR Version: Gen X’ers and Millennials will eventually phase out, and with them, so will a lot of the hate for the PT and ST, respectively.

I agree (we had this argument recently and I took some shit for saying this, but it makes sense).

One thing that’s interesting to note (interpret this how you will)…

Adjusted Box Office for Star Wars films:

  1. Star Wars
  2. The Force Awakens
  3. Empire Strikes Back
  4. Return of the Jedi
  5. The Phantom Menace
  6. The Last Jedi
  7. Rogue One
  8. Revenge of the Sith
  9. Attack of the Clones
  10. Solo

Glad to see someone gets where I’m coming from!

In regards to those box office rankings, all of them pretty much make sense to me. It’ll be interesting to see where IX ends up on that list. I would hope it could at least make it into the Top 5, but we’ll see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Budu1ux09Rs

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Valheru_84 said:

SilverWook said:

Weird Al wrote The Saga Begins before even seeing TPM, just using the leaks.

Did not know this. Interesting tidbit for the day 😛

There’s a hidden commentary track for the music video on the now out of print “Weird Al” Yankovic Live! concert DVD of his 1999 tour. Apparently the spoilers were so on the money, he only had to make minor changes after finally getting into an early TPM screening.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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rocknroll41 said:

TLDR Version: Gen X’ers and Millennials will eventually phase out, and with them, so will a lot of the hate for the PT and ST, respectively.

I am part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor. Take me away!

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yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

Interesting POV. Where exactly does the film say otherwise?

The film is saying that Luke’s actions are inspiring the whole galaxy to follow his example. The kid on Canto Bight is just a random kid, just like Rey. It’s saying anyone can use the force, whether they’re poor and oppressed or their parents were nothing or whatever. For them, their force powers are because of their own belief in themselves and their ability to be part of something greater than their circumstance would typically allow for.

Anything else about Luke dying and the force choosing someone like you said is just fan theory.

I think the point is that a powerful force user can arise from anywhere.

And there is some misconception about the Force as it is presented in the previous two trilogies. We never are shown that it is hard to learn force powers. Someone must teach. What is hard is avoiding the temptation of the dark side. What requires years of training is the perfection of the skills and learning the fine control. Luke learned to deflect blaster bolts during one short lesson on the Falcon. He figured out how to pick up his light saber with no additional training. He doubted he could lift his X-wing and Yoda showed him that it could be done (by then he had been levitating many things). The only thing we see Rey do in TFA is pick up on all the skills that Kylo Ren demonstrates or tries to use on her. This idea that she didn’t have to work for these things and Luke did is bogus. And in all three trilogies our force powerful hero can fly and fix anything, even if they have never touched one before. Anakin flies the Naboo starfighter, Luke the X-wing, Rey the Falcon (and only Rey had issues and nearly crashes). Of the three, Rey is the only one skilled in combat before we meet them. She is never shown mastering anything any faster than Luke did.

I know we’ve covered this in triplicate, but by this logic Ep 4 may as well have been called ‘A New Hope Among Many’. The whole point of the OT is that Luke is unique - that he’s tapping into something rare and difficult and mostly forgotten. Why else would the series be so invested in him personally? When Obi Wan solemnly declared “That boy is our last hope”, why didn’t Yoda simply say “No, any idiot will do. Let’s get that Solo guy. He seems confident”? Yes, the movies definitely gloss over things training-wise in order to keep it all moving, but the essence is there. If Force powers were a breeze then there’d be Sith lords all over the place Force-choking whoever they feel like until some guru comes along to inform them that that’s ‘the Dark Side’. It just doesn’t make good in-universe sense for Force-powers to be no big deal. It cheapens a major aspect of the saga.

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Jim Sterling recently did a pretty good video

With his vain, condescending attitude, that has to be an oxymoron.

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Shopping Maul said:

I know we’ve covered this in triplicate, but by this logic Ep 4 may as well have been called ‘A New Hope Among Many’. The whole point of the OT is that Luke is unique - that he’s tapping into something rare and difficult and mostly forgotten. Why else would the series be so invested in him personally? When Obi Wan solemnly declared “That boy is our last hope”, why didn’t Yoda simply say “No, any idiot will do. Let’s get that Solo guy. He seems confident”?

Or he was the last hope because of his family connection to Vader (“the other” was always meant to be his sister, too, even when that sister wasn’t Leia).

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda believed that being forced to confront his offspring would put him off balance enough to give Luke an edge. It turned out that they were right to place their trust in Luke, but not for the reason they believed - it was because Luke didn’t lose faith that his father could be saved.

It wasn’t because they simply couldn’t find someone else who was strong in the Force to train.

And if you’re going by prequel “rules,” they (or at least Obi-Wan) believed that Luke - or at least, one of Anakin’s children - was the Chosen One, rather than Anakin himself as they’d all believed before. So, by buying into the prophecy, yeah, he would’ve seen Luke as the “last hope.”

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

Shopping Maul said:

I know we’ve covered this in triplicate, but by this logic Ep 4 may as well have been called ‘A New Hope Among Many’. The whole point of the OT is that Luke is unique - that he’s tapping into something rare and difficult and mostly forgotten. Why else would the series be so invested in him personally? When Obi Wan solemnly declared “That boy is our last hope”, why didn’t Yoda simply say “No, any idiot will do. Let’s get that Solo guy. He seems confident”?

Or he was the last hope because of his family connection to Vader (“the other” was always meant to be his sister, too, even when that sister wasn’t Leia).

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda believed that being forced to confront his offspring would put him off balance enough to give Luke an edge. It turned out that they were right to place their trust in Luke, but not for the reason they believed - it was because Luke didn’t lose faith that his father could be saved.

It wasn’t because they simply couldn’t find someone else who was strong in the Force to train.

And if you’re going by prequel “rules,” they (or at least Obi-Wan) believed that Luke - or at least, one of Anakin’s children - was the Chosen One, rather than Anakin himself as they’d all believed before. So, by buying into the prophecy, yeah, he would’ve seen Luke as the “last hope.”

It’s hard to know where to draw those familial lines given that Vader wasn’t even Luke’s dad when Obi first posed the notion of Luke learning the Force - nor was there any ‘20 year plan’ on behalf of Obi Wan and Yoda. When the ‘other’ was initially presented in TESB, she was supposed to be someone who had been trained on the other side of the galaxy - the operative word being ‘trained’. It was only to dig himself out of a story hole that Lucas made Leia the sister and planted the idea that Skywalkers were a worthy threat to Palpatine based on heritage/genetics alone (cue Midichlorians). As far as Luke being any kind of ‘hope’ via the unanticipated (by Yoda and Obi Wan) redemption of Anakin - well I’ve made a lot of noise on these threads about how I feel Luke’s role in RoTJ was completely and utterly redundant with regard to that final battle.

Look, the whole Force thing is as elastic as anyone wants it to be. I just think the reason so many fans are up in arms about Rey’s instant and consequence-free power levels is that the previous films greatly imply a deep and difficult learning curve with regards to the Force. Also, the OT has the Force (and Jedi) as something forgotten and elusive and even snickered at. If Force-powers really did pop up everywhere like the ST implies, surely someone like Vader wouldn’t have wielded the terrifying influence he did in TESB. Wouldn’t there be a reasonable number of Imperial officers who just happened to be pretty good at levitation or Force-choking (perhaps they saw Vader do it and learned it instantly like Rey did) that could defy Lord Vader’s many homicidal tantrums? No, Vader was the last personification of a forgotten art. It’s not like Admiral Ozzel could turn to his fellow officers and say “look, don’t worry about Vader. My kid Force-choked his teacher the other day. Anyone can do this s##t”.

Making the Force - which is/was the spiritual backbone of the series - something easily dealt with and more or less unlimited diminishes it and, by extension, Luke Skywalker’s journey.

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rocknroll41 said:

nl0428 said:

Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?

If we wanna break it down even more, Gen X’ers seem to forgive TFA’s derivative-ness more so than Millennials (from what I can tell). TLJ couldn’t “play it safe” again and couldn’t really integrate more of that PT feel for the Millennials since it had to work off of TFA, which established a very OT-like feel. So the only thing really left for the movie to do was burn it all down both literally (Resistance reduced to just a dozen people on the Falcon, “big bad” killed off one movie ahead of schedule, etc.) as well as figuratively (the tree burning, “let the past die,” etc.). So, unless you’re into deconstructionism, you’re probably not gonna be into TLJ, especially if you’re a Gen X’er who’s super-sensitive about “their Star Wars.”

The Last Jedi didn’t throw away everything The Force Awakens set up, it was continuing the story threads that were set up in VII. Many think that there isn’t a plan for the sequel trilogy, which I do not believe is true. I believe there is a plan for the trilogy. All Rian Johnson did was continue the story threads that J.J. Abrams set up, the only thing that J.J. would’ve done differently would probably be the plot, such as possibly omitting Canto Bight if he directed The Last Jedi. Adam Driver came out recently and said that he knew where Kylo Ren’s fate would end up in IX when he signed on to the trilogy. Even Daisy Ridley said that the revelation of Rey’s parents in The Last Jedi is what she was told when she signed on to the trilogy. The Last Jedi is very much what The Empire Strikes Back similarly. It was a roller coaster of twists and turns on a hair pulling adventure. It was bold and took risks like never before. I remember my jaw dropping when Kylo Ten killed Snoke. Inside, I almost wanted to stand up and cheer when the familiar John Williams music played as Rey and Ben looked at one another after Snoke’s death. Even the audience I saw the film with applauded when it was revealed Luke was projecting himself through the Force. It may have polarized some audiences with its direction, but I’d recommend leaving your expectations at the door when going to see the next installment of the saga. That way, you will not be disappointed. Just something I think fans should do when Episode IX comes out. Trust me, it’s for the best.

Noah Lawson