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Episode IX - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 43

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OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

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 (Edited)

Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?

Noah Lawson

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The old Decipher CCG was a sanctioned and vetted Lucasfilm product and in that they made Han ''force sensitive" and the game had a structure for Jedi training, you could turn Chewbacca into a Jedi Knight if you wanted to.

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DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

Interesting POV. Where exactly does the film say otherwise?

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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 (Edited)

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

Interesting POV. Where exactly does the film say otherwise?

The film is saying that Luke’s actions are inspiring the whole galaxy to follow his example. The kid on Canto Bight is just a random kid, just like Rey. It’s saying anyone can use the force, whether they’re poor and oppressed or their parents were nothing or whatever. For them, their force powers are because of their own belief in themselves and their ability to be part of something greater than their circumstance would typically allow for.

Anything else about Luke dying and the force choosing someone like you said is just fan theory.

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 (Edited)

OutboundFlight said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

He is able to exit Hyperspace between the Starkiller’s shields and the planet’s crust, a feat lifted from an early script of TPM where only Anakin’s Force ability was able to manage such a thing.

And no, the Force has always consistently been something that anyone can learn, but that some have a natural affinity for. That hasn’t changed.

Then why did Rey just suddenly get her powers, without working for anything? It’s explained very clearly in TLJ as the “darkness rises, and light to meet it”. Since Kylo trained for many years to become a dark lord, Rey must get all those powers within a couple days to restore balance (probably because Luke shut himself out).

Because she has that natural affinity for it I mentioned. That and the fact that she took Force knowledge from Kylo when he searched her mind, something which is unfortunately not made very clear in the film.

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate it was sudden. In fact, the way he casually uses the Force seems to indicate he’s been using it for a long time.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

Interesting POV. Where exactly does the film say otherwise?

The film is saying that Luke’s actions are inspiring the whole galaxy to follow his example. The kid on Canto Bight is just a random kid, just like Rey. It’s saying anyone can use the force, whether they’re poor and oppressed or their parents were nothing or whatever. For them, their force powers are because of their own belief in themselves and their ability to be part of something greater than their circumstance would typically allow for.

Anything else about Luke dying and the force choosing someone like you said is just fan theory.

I see how this could be interpreted, however, I never got that message from watching. He does it with little emotion, as if the force is a regular thing.

I think a better way to tell that scene would have been the broom boy to first look up into the sky, and to play the binary sunset. Then have him glance down to the Luke doll, inspired, and then towards the broom. He reaches out, nothing happens. Then he reaches out aagain, pulling all his might, and gets it to move a little. Then he reaches again, gets the broom, and look up smiling at the stars as triumphant music closes the film.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

Interesting POV. Where exactly does the film say otherwise?

The film is saying that Luke’s actions are inspiring the whole galaxy to follow his example. The kid on Canto Bight is just a random kid, just like Rey. It’s saying anyone can use the force, whether they’re poor and oppressed or their parents were nothing or whatever. For them, their force powers are because of their own belief in themselves and their ability to be part of something greater than their circumstance would typically allow for.

Anything else about Luke dying and the force choosing someone like you said is just fan theory.

I see how this could be interpreted, however, I never got that message from watching. He does it with little emotion, as if the force is a regular thing.

I think a better way to tell that scene would have been the broom boy to first look up into the sky, and to play the binary sunset. Then have him glance down to the Luke doll, inspired, and then towards the broom. He reaches out, nothing happens. Then he reaches out aagain, pulling all his might, and gets it to move a little. Then he reaches again, gets the broom, and look up smiling at the stars as triumphant music closes the film.

Maybe I worded it wrong, but I’m not suggesting that Luke inspiring him literally gave him force powers. I believe the suggestion is that he (and many others, like Rey), have always had the potential. But Luke is inspiring them to use that potential to reach further and become a part of something bigger than them.

What literally gave them the force powers in the first place seems to be irrelevant.

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DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

In the Sequels, however, we are told the force likes to balance itself out. So to balance Snoke and Kylo we have Rey. But Rey wasn’t a Jedi before. The force just randomly called to her?

This sets up an interesting message: don’t work hard. Just hope you will be lucky and suddenly become the one gifted person in the galaxy. All because someone else worked really hard on the other side and we need balance.

That’s a very strange interpretation of those films. Do you remember how TLJ ended?

All the ending shows is one boy suddenly getting force powers. We have little context how he got these powers, so while I suppose its possible he has been spending his life training to be able to use the force, it’s more likely he just randomly got powers with ease. The death of Luke called upon the broom boy (the only one we see) to take his place in the light side.

You can look at it that way, but that’s not what the film is saying though.

Interesting POV. Where exactly does the film say otherwise?

The film is saying that Luke’s actions are inspiring the whole galaxy to follow his example. The kid on Canto Bight is just a random kid, just like Rey. It’s saying anyone can use the force, whether they’re poor and oppressed or their parents were nothing or whatever. For them, their force powers are because of their own belief in themselves and their ability to be part of something greater than their circumstance would typically allow for.

Anything else about Luke dying and the force choosing someone like you said is just fan theory.

I see how this could be interpreted, however, I never got that message from watching. He does it with little emotion, as if the force is a regular thing.

I think a better way to tell that scene would have been the broom boy to first look up into the sky, and to play the binary sunset. Then have him glance down to the Luke doll, inspired, and then towards the broom. He reaches out, nothing happens. Then he reaches out aagain, pulling all his might, and gets it to move a little. Then he reaches again, gets the broom, and look up smiling at the stars as triumphant music closes the film.

Maybe I worded it wrong, but I’m not suggesting that Luke inspiring him literally gave him force powers. I believe the suggestion is that he (and many others, like Rey), have always had the potential. But Luke is inspiring them to use that potential to reach further and become a part of something bigger than them.

What literally gave them the force powers in the first place seems to be irrelevant.

Agreed. I think everyone has the potential, they just need to work for it and believe like Obi-Wan says.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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So, what are your guys’ personal interpretations of the Force? It seems that, depending on the media, it ranges from a super power that only a select few can use, to something that anyone can tap into under the right circumstances. Personally, I think that being connected to the Force is kind of like a talent. Anyone can use the Force to some degree, but some are more gifted with it than others, but they still have to train with it in order to properly use their talent.

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I think the natural state of the Force means anyone can tap into it, but needs practice and training to use it effectively, and some are more naturally talented than others and use it instinctually.

But the Force has its own will, and can “raise up” someone (like Rey) in a crisis situation (“Darkness rises, and light to meet it”).

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

I think the natural state of the Force means anyone can tap into it, but needs practice and training to use it effectively, and some are more naturally talented than others and use it instinctually.

But the Force has its own will, and can “raise up” someone (like Rey) in a crisis situation (“Darkness rises, and light to meet it”).

Yep.

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ChainsawAsh said:

I think the natural state of the Force means anyone can tap into it, but needs practice and training to use it effectively, and some are more naturally talented than others and use it instinctually.

But the Force has its own will, and can “raise up” someone (like Rey) in a crisis situation (“Darkness rises, and light to meet it”).

I’m with this except, maybe, that last part. I don’t like the idea that the Force can bend someone to do it’s will. Especially the Light side.
I also haven’t seen the movie, so that might not be what happens.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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ray_afraid said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I think the natural state of the Force means anyone can tap into it, but needs practice and training to use it effectively, and some are more naturally talented than others and use it instinctually.

But the Force has its own will, and can “raise up” someone (like Rey) in a crisis situation (“Darkness rises, and light to meet it”).

I’m with this except, maybe, that last part. I don’t like the idea that the Force can bend someone to do it’s will. Especially the Light side.
I also haven’t seen the movie, so that might not be what happens.

It’s pretty much explicitly stated in The Last Jedi. I’ll see if I can find the whole quote.

JEDIT: Here it is:

SNOKE: Darkness rises, and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker, I assumed.

Maybe not explicit, but pretty close if you ask me.

And I don’t think it’s that the Force is bending someone to do its will, but bestowing unusual mastery of the Force on someone who can do the most to counter the darkness. Rey still has free will and can run away and not do anything if she chooses.

a trolling bantha

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 (Edited)

ChainsawAsh said:

ray_afraid said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I think the natural state of the Force means anyone can tap into it, but needs practice and training to use it effectively, and some are more naturally talented than others and use it instinctually.

But the Force has its own will, and can “raise up” someone (like Rey) in a crisis situation (“Darkness rises, and light to meet it”).

I’m with this except, maybe, that last part. I don’t like the idea that the Force can bend someone to do it’s will. Especially the Light side.
I also haven’t seen the movie, so that might not be what happens.

It’s pretty much explicitly stated in The Last Jedi. I’ll see if I can find the whole quote.

JEDIT: Here it is:

SNOKE: Darkness rises, and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. Skywalker, I assumed.

Maybe not explicit, but pretty close if you ask me.

And I don’t think it’s that the Force is bending someone to do its will, but bestowing unusual mastery of the Force on someone who can do the most to counter the darkness. Rey still has free will and can run away and not do anything if she chooses.

The other thing to note is that this is merely Snoke’s interpretation of what’s going on. We can choose to believe it or not. Either way, it’s likely whatever the force is up to is more complicated and less easily explained than whatever someone might describe.

screams in the void said:

sounds reasonable to me …and wasn’t there something in the prequels about a "chosen one "?

Same goes for this. “A prophecy misread, could have been.” And we never even know where the prophecy came from.

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screams in the void said:

sounds reasonable to me …and wasn’t there something in the prequels about a "chosen one "?

The really weird thing about the chosen one was TPM started with utter peace.

Would have made more sense if say, the galaxy had been at war for centuries, like in KOTOR. I can only assume the prophecy was calling for “balance” by the force supporting his turn to the dark side and killing all but 2 Jedi and 2 Sith.

To my understanding, the dark side isn’t good. With the light side, the force is a Jedi’s ally. With the dark side, the force is an abused power. I don’t understand why a sentient force would support “balance”, because at no point does the dark side appear good. The Jedi were flawed yes, but partially turning to the dark side wouldn’t solve any of their problems.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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 (Edited)

Force ability, in my opinion, shouldn’t be equated to physical training, like you would for a martial art, or for learning the piano.

The Force is based entirely on faith. The various powers have nothing to do with technique. It is all about believing in the Force, believe in it and its will, and also importantly, believing in yourself, because we all are a part of the Force.

It’s about believing that we are more than just “crude matter”. Since these films are meant to be fairy tales for children, then the message of believing in yourself is, to me, is a very important one. That was the same message the OT gave us.

Also, I personally don’t think the dark side should be interpreted as the evil side. The light and dark side are like yin and yang, which aren’t inherently good or evil. The Sith use the negative aspects of the dark side, and their own dark side, to bend the Force to their will unnaturally, rather than allowing themselves to let the Force guide them through life.

Those negative qualities that make people do bad things can be found in the dark side. Those emotions and qualities aren’t always inherently evil, but consuming oneself in those emotions can lead to imbalance.

Not a perfect description, but check out this article about the differentiate between yin and yang & good and evil. Then you can try to apply it to the Force.
http://www.jonasyunus.net/blog-the_yin_yang_of_good_evil

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RogueLeader said:

Force ability, in my opinion, shouldn’t be equated to physical training, like you would for a martial art, or for learning the piano.

The Force is based entirely on faith. The various powers have nothing to do with technique. It is all about believing in the Force, believe in it and its will, and also importantly, believing in yourself, because we all are a part of the Force.

It’s about believing that we are more than just “crude matter”. Since these films are meant to be fairy tales for children, then the message of believing in yourself is, to me, is a very important one. That was the same message the OT gave us.

Also, I personally don’t think the dark side should be interpreted as the evil side. The light and dark side are like yin and yang, which aren’t inherently good or evil. The Sith use the negative aspects of the dark side, and their own dark side, to bend the Force to their will unnaturally, rather than allowing themselves to let the Force guide them through life.

Those negative qualities that make people do bad things can be found in the dark side. Those emotions and qualities aren’t always inherently evil, but consuming oneself in those emotions can lead to imbalance.

Not a perfect description, but check out this article about the differentiate between yin and yang & good and evil. Then you can try to apply it to the Force.
http://www.jonasyunus.net/blog-the_yin_yang_of_good_evil

I agree with a lot of this perspective, but I believe that the core of Jedi ‘training’ is in fact the process of learning to believe in yourself and the power of the Force, which is much more emotionally driven than a physical martial arts training process. The emotions which generate the greatest results, peace and calm and connectedness and so forth, are subtle and take time to establish, whereas emotions such as fear and anger are quick and obvious. Things like death and violence, things which are implied to be part of the Dark Side, are actually part of the natural processes of the universe and so they are part of the ‘balance’ of the Force.

To put it another way, the light and dark sides of the Force arise naturally from the life of the universe, and the ecosystems of this life are largely symbiotic and self correcting. Where there is an overabundance of life, death must soon follow. Where there has been a great deal of death a Jedi might feel the presence of the Dark Side, but this is as malevolent as the tree on Dagobah - it merely reflects the fear of those who enter it.

Sentient life, however, is uncoupled from this natural symbiosis and balance. If a person finds an affinity for the Force, they can use it to whatever end they wish, and such a person can be a powerful lever which moves the life of the universe. A single person - Force sensitive or otherwise - can destroy entire planets in this universe, and the Force has no recourse for this except to make itself available to those who will return the balance of the natural living order.

Thus, whether or not there are equal Jedi and Sith, or lightsiders and dark, matters not at all in the grand scheme of things. The first order of life is to live in balance with yourself and all other life. The Sith by their nature led unbalanced lives, but it was of little concern of the galaxy until their power was used to terrible effect. Similarly, the Jedi became through their blindness and arrogance an instrument of terrible suffering, further destroying the balance of the Force. Through a single action, a darksider could restore balance to the Force and redeem themselves, just as through a single action a Jedi could negate all of their noble acts.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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Very good reply! I can agree with that. I guess I mean that the training is more like teaching someone to meditate rather than teaching someone karate, if that makes sense.

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Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

Does anyone here think that either one of these two things will happen in the next 10-30 years. Will the sequel trilogy receive more love in the next 10-30 years by the fans, or be more divisive, kind of like the prequels?

IMO they will be kind of like how the prequels are viewed today. Where there’s some who still dislike every aspect of them, but most will have learned to live with the bad parts and enjoy the good.