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Episode IX - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 19

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DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Vader was a much worse person.

In the OT? Nah.

After we have his backstory fleshed out, yes. The poor younglings!

Yes in the OT. Sorry that you like Han Solo more than Obi-wan.

He didn’t kill Obi-Wan

Um, what?

Darth Vader did not kill Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan became one with the Force before the blow was struck.

That’s a frankly ridiculous hair to split that has essentially no bearing on this conversation whatsoever.
You brought it up, not me.

Even if you believe Vader killed ObiWan, he did so in battle. Kylo murdered his unarmed father.

The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Vader was a much worse person.

In the OT? Nah.

After we have his backstory fleshed out, yes. The poor younglings!

Yes in the OT. Sorry that you like Han Solo more than Obi-wan.

He didn’t kill Obi-Wan

Um, what?

Darth Vader did not kill Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan became one with the Force before the blow was struck.

That’s a frankly ridiculous hair to split that has essentially no bearing on this conversation whatsoever.
You brought it up, not me.

Even if you believe Vader killed ObiWan, he did so in battle. Kylo murdered his unarmed father.

If you think Vader wouldn’t kill an unarmed Obi-wan you are deluding yourself. Not to mention when he makes the killing blow, Obi-wan has stopped fighting and has left himself open to being cut down.

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DominicCobb said:

Vader was a much worse person.

What feels so odd is that even though this point holds absolutely true upon objective analysis, I can’t help but on an emotional level, feel that the redemption of Kylo would feel incredibly jarring and not right.

I attribute this mainly to the fact that within the OT, (not counting dead children from some awful prequel movies) we only see Vader murder random people who we never know all that much about. In Rogue One, it’s a dynamic of him just being a “badass”. Kylo Ren on the other hand murdered Han Solo. It just sits differently for some reason.

Return of the Jedi: Remastered

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darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

Vader was a much worse person.

What feels so odd is that even though this point holds absolutely true upon objective analysis, I can’t help but on an emotional level, feel that the redemption of Kylo would feel incredibly jarring and not right.

I attribute this mainly to the fact that within the OT, (not counting dead children from some awful prequel movies) we only see Vader murder random people who we never know all that much about. In Rogue One, it’s a dynamic of him just being a “badass”. Kylo Ren on the other hand murdered Han Solo. It just sits differently for some reason.

I think what makes Vader so much more redeemable is that he was once a definitively good person for many years of his adult life, even if you consider the prequels canon. He was a Jedi Knight acting in ways that he believed were to safeguard the Republic, the legitimate government of the galaxy. The fact that he fell so far was the tragedy.

Kylo on the other hand is portrayed as essentially a school shooter. It’s hard to feel sorry for someone like that.

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 (Edited)

If you consider the prequels canon, Vader was a school shooter too, and a much bigger school at that.

The situations are different. Sure we know Anakin was “a good friend,” but that then he was “seduced by the dark side of the Force.” On the other hand, we are told that Ben seemingly struggled with a darkness inside him from a young age (due to the “Vader in him”), and was manipulated and seduced by Snoke specifically. So while Vader is implied to have turned because of a greedy quest for power, Ben is implied to have turned because he was exploited and possibly (in a way) brainwashed into doing so.

I’d honestly argue that Ben’s story is more tragic, and to see him die a full villain would just be plain sad.

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Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Vader was a much worse person.

In the OT? Nah.

After we have his backstory fleshed out, yes. The poor younglings!

Yes in the OT. Sorry that you like Han Solo more than Obi-wan.

He didn’t kill Obi-Wan

Um, what?

Darth Vader did not kill Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan became one with the Force before the blow was struck.

That’s a frankly ridiculous hair to split that has essentially no bearing on this conversation whatsoever.
You brought it up, not me.

Even if you believe Vader killed ObiWan, he did so in battle. Kylo murdered his unarmed father.

Vader killed Anakin too!

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I think this is what got deleted?

DominicCobb said:

I honestly don’t understand this mindset but I now it’s very prevalent. The only way I can figure is people are used to Vader being redeemed because they saw that movie when they were a kid, while with Kylo he’s the guy almost singlehandedly responsible for ruining the lives of characters they loved when they were kids. That’s really the only explanation that makes sense to me.

I don’t think that has anything to do with it. Once you know Vader is Luke’s father, you look back and see that everything Vader does in ESB and ROTJ is to be reunited with his son. It shows a level of humanity for the monster. Also, his lines about the Force show that he still holds to a belief in something.

Everything Kylo has done is for revenge. Revenge against his father, his uncle, his mentor. He has no reverence for anything (kill the past). Other than his feeling of being alone, there is nothing there but hatred, petulance and rage. It would be difficult to create movement towards redemption with only 2 hours left in this saga.

Likewise, I don’t know how you create any conflict in Rey over not killing Kylo. We leave TLJ with her, Luke and Leia agreeing Kylo is a lost cause. Her doing a 180 in 2 hours is a tough sell, especially since she already spent last film going down that path.

The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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DominicCobb said:

If you consider the prequels canon, Vader was a school shooter too, and a much bigger school at that.

A school whose teachers tried to murder the democratically elected leader of the Republic.
He was also doing all of this ostensibly to save the life of his wife and unborn child.

The situations are different. Sure we know Anakin was “a good friend,” but that then he was “seduced by the dark side of the Force.” On the other hand, we are told that Ben seemingly struggled with a darkness inside him from a young age (due to the “Vader in him”)

If Vader’s evil was transmitted genetically, Luke would have had a lot more of it than Ben.

…and was manipulated and seduced by Snoke specifically. So while Vader is implied to have turned because of a greedy quest for power,

And the whole Padme thing.

Ben is implied to have turned because he was exploited and possibly (in a way) brainwashed into doing so.

Ben also wanted to finish what Vader started, which I assume has something to do with this quest for power.

I’d honestly argue that Ben’s story is more tragic, and to see him die a full villain would just be plain sad.

They are both tragic for sure, but I was referring in Vader’s case to the classical definition of tragedy, where a great person makes an error of judgement and this has unforseen and calamitous effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy
“Aristotle wrote in his work Poetics that tragedy is characterised by seriousness and involves a great person who experiences a reversal of fortune (Peripeteia).”
“According to Aristotle, “The misfortune is brought about not by [general] vice or depravity, but by some [particular] error or frailty.””

Ben never has the chance to rise to greatness, so this definition doesn’t really apply. Of course it is still tragic in the general sense.

It also seems to me that the act of redemption is a return to the greatness already seen from a character. Since Ben doesn’t have this greatness, he cannot be redeemed. The only way forward is for him to commit to his dark path forever, or to grow enough that he understands the error of his ways.

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Well, I’m not arguing the semantics of the words “tragedy” and “redemption.” We know what I’m saying. Ben’s turn to the dark was lamentable, and I believe he should have the chance to turn back to the light.

As for Anakin, trying to save Padme makes his turn slightly more noble, but no less greedy and selfish. And his sudden “Palpatine must stand trial” appeal is ridiculous, yeah he knew it’s not the Jedi way, but that hasn’t stopped him before, and it was clear Palpatine was a deadly threat who was literally just trying to kill Mace. Not to mention he had very little reason to buy Palpatine’s story that the Jedi were plotting to take over. Whereas Ben and (a handful of students with him) killed only the remaining students (less than a dozen) after his teacher tried to murder him.

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Hardcore Legend said:

I think this is what got deleted?

DominicCobb said:

I honestly don’t understand this mindset but I now it’s very prevalent. The only way I can figure is people are used to Vader being redeemed because they saw that movie when they were a kid, while with Kylo he’s the guy almost singlehandedly responsible for ruining the lives of characters they loved when they were kids. That’s really the only explanation that makes sense to me.

I don’t think that has anything to do with it. Once you know Vader is Luke’s father, you look back and see that everything Vader does in ESB and ROTJ is to be reunited with his son. It shows a level of humanity for the monster. Also, his lines about the Force show that he still holds to a belief in something.

Reunited makes it sound like he wants to hang out with look and play catch. No, he wants Luke so he can have help in overthrowing the Emperor and ruling the galaxy himself, still on the dark side.

Everything Kylo has done is for revenge. Revenge against his father, his uncle, his mentor. He has no reverence for anything (kill the past). Other than his feeling of being alone, there is nothing there but hatred, petulance and rage. It would be difficult to create movement towards redemption with only 2 hours left in this saga.

Everything he’s done has been to prove himself to the dark side, whether that be for Snoke or his own sake. Deep down, he has a real heart, with the darkness being a front that has given him nothing but pain. Turning back to the light is easy, all he has to do is realize that he’s fucked up, something he’s been on the verge of for two movies straight.

Likewise, I don’t know how you create any conflict in Rey over not killing Kylo. We leave TLJ with her, Luke and Leia agreeing Kylo is a lost cause. Her doing a 180 in 2 hours is a tough sell, especially since she already spent last film going down that path.

It’s a lot more nuanced than you make it out to be. Rey created a strong connection with Ben. Just because she closed the door on him at the end of TLJ doesn’t mean she’s 100% resolved against him. I think her feelings will remain conflicted.

As for Luke, he never says Kylo is a lost cause, just that he can’t save him. I think there’s a clear distinction there, and a reasonable one (I can’t imagine Luke in particular having that ability with him).

As for Leia, she’s believed in the good in Ben for so long, and it’s only then in that one moment of despair when the weight of all the loss she’s ever experienced hits her as she thinks it’s all over that she says she thinks her son is gone. And then Luke, of course, says “no one’s ever really gone.”

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DominicCobb said:

Well, I’m not arguing the semantics of the words “tragedy” and “redemption.” We know what I’m saying. Ben’s turn to the dark was lamentable, and I believe he should have the chance to turn back to the light.

Whereas Ben and (a handful of students with him) killed only the remaining students (less than a dozen) after his teacher tried to murder him.

Unless we are believing Luke is lying, Ben had already turned to Snoke by the time they had their fateful moment in the hut.

The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Hardcore Legend said:

DominicCobb said:

Well, I’m not arguing the semantics of the words “tragedy” and “redemption.” We know what I’m saying. Ben’s turn to the dark was lamentable, and I believe he should have the chance to turn back to the light.

Whereas Ben and (a handful of students with him) killed only the remaining students (less than a dozen) after his teacher tried to murder him.

Unless we are believing Luke is lying, Ben had already turned to Snoke by the time they had their fateful moment in the hut.

I don’t see any reason to doubt Luke, but we’re talking about Ben burning the temple and killing the other students, which happened after Luke entered his hut. Whether it would have happened anyway or if Luke pushed him over the edge is somewhat ambiguous at this point. But I think you could very easily make the argument that Anakin would’ve turned to the dark side without the extra motivation of seeing Mace swing a lightsaber at Palpatine.

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Hardcore Legend said:

GZK8000 said:

Hardcore Legend said:

There is no redemption. He needs to die like a dog. He murdered his father. He murdered his mentor. He murdered all of his fellow students. He attempted to murder his uncle. He either needs to win and the trilogy ends on down note or he needs to die.

I don’t see any reasonable way he can turn to the light and survive. He was part of the murder of an entire system.

You’re almost 35 years too late.

Is this in reference to Vader? Because his death was part of his redemption. There is no logistical way he could have survived and returned with Luke to the Rebels.

Also, I don’t think we actually saw Vader kill any Rebels in the OT. Kylo ordered the murder of an innocent village of people in TFA. He’s gotta die or win.

He betrayed the Republic in support of a space fascist regime. He helped the new Empire to hunt Jedis. He tortured Leia and sent Stormtroopers to kill or capture anyone onboard the Tantive IV. As the Emperor’s right hand, he gave thumbs up to planet killing weapons twice. He tortured Han and put him in permanent hibernation. He cut Luke’s arm. He forced Obi-Wan to commit space seppuku. He took control of a peaceful mining colony just because. He took Luke to the Emperor, who later tortured him. He sent countless of people to almost certain death just to capture a few people.

Saying sorry five minutes before dying of injuries caused by the tyranical, genocidal guy you helped and supported him for two decades is not enough.

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Hardcore Legend said:
Once you know Vader is Luke’s father, you look back and see that everything Vader does in ESB and ROTJ is to be reunited with his son.

I know RotJ changed the character of Vader but I can’t really see TESB Vader torturing Han as “attempting to be reunited with his son”. I may be wrong but in my eyes TESB Vader was clearly written as someone who merely wants to use Luke as a weapon against the Emperor. He may have some feelings but he wouldn’t put Luke above his own quest for ultimate power.

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NeverarGreat said:

That would be annoying if true since she never met Yoda in life, and only being able to see people you knew as Force Ghosts is one of their unwritten rules.

Or has she?!?! Rey as re-incarnated Anakin CONFIRMED!

The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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NeverarGreat said:

That would be annoying if true since she never met Yoda in life, and only being able to see people you knew as Force Ghosts is one of their unwritten rules.

That seems like a pretty flexible rule to me. Also Rey might have seen ghost-Yoda off-screen on Ach-To. Either way it’d be pretty easy to “explain” Rey seeing ghost-Yoda.

Also did Luke know “young-Anakin”? Hayen-ghost is is officially canon.

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In Lucas’ mind, Luke met Anakin a few minutes before the dude died, so it doesn’t matter what shape the ghost takes.

It doesn’t make sense but it’s the SE after all.