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Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released) — Page 71

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Trooperman,

I think it sounds great! it may be a bit jarring in short clips like that, but I don't think when watching the entire film, it will be jarring at all. It has come a long way, and I think you nailed it this time! Great job!

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Originally posted by: Saintheart
Apologies for the bombast ... next time I'll read through the whole thread before posting (or post earlier )

As for the New Voice: I was only able to listen to the YouTube versions, so I'm missing the rework that's been done, but they sound good to me. With greatest, greatest respect I'd enunciate a little more clearly and pull back the volume just a tad, but otherwise I *like* the sound of these things. I look forward to the more completed version!

Ha-ha... shame on you for not reading through all 88 pages before posting

Thanks. Yeah, I know. I'm almost embarrassed of the nightclub video on Youtube now, because not only was the mike way too close, but I was mumbling and did a bad job with that scene. That's fixed now.

Also keep in mind that the original line was not "At your service". Also, it looks a little weird when Anakin says "I think he is a she" because in that shot, Hayden didn't actually say that. It was the shot with the line about the changleling, which I had to use from an editing standpoint.

I really do think that in the context of the film, it will not be jarring after the first few lines. And probably not even then when you re-watch the film and stop watching AOTC. Heh.. I've worked so long on this film that now HAYDEN is jarring. Although he was jarring to begin with (to me).

I think that like watching a black and white or letterboxed movie, the fact that Anakin has a different voice will distract you for about five minutes and then you'll get into the film and it won't matter. I think the new recordings are good as-is, but after Adywan is done with them (if he is able to do that) I really think you all will enjoy it.

Originally posted by: Dantha Fodder
Originally posted by: Marvolo
This does sound somewhat better than the first time, but I still prefer Hayden's audio. This just sticks out, because the voice is too deep. It doesn't sound natural. It sounds like you are intentionaly deepening your voice. If you are doing it to make him sound tougher then it isn't a good thing. People with voices that naturally deep are usually thicker built and stockier. Hayden is not built this way, and this new voice stands out. I don't take a person more serious just, because their voice is extremely deep.


I completely agree.

I personally don't dig the new voice. It is too deep, generally lacking in emotion and it still sounds dubbed, like a bad Japanese to American translated samari flick (something unavoidable, no matter no what ADR effect you tack on it).

I guess if this makes EpII more watchable for you Trooperman, then that's what counts, I just don't think a lot of people will take it seriously. Sorry.


See, I really don't believe it's unavoidable. There is a history of dubbed voices throughout Star Wars. Darth Vader, Aunt Beru, all of the creatures... I really think it's possible. I also don't believe that to have a deep voice you must be stocky in build. I'm pretty middle-of-the-road myself.

I think you all need some context on Anakin's personality. I really need to get this thing done....

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Originally posted by: Trooperman
Originally posted by: Saintheart
Apologies for the bombast ... next time I'll read through the whole thread before posting (or post earlier )

As for the New Voice: I was only able to listen to the YouTube versions, so I'm missing the rework that's been done, but they sound good to me. With greatest, greatest respect I'd enunciate a little more clearly and pull back the volume just a tad, but otherwise I *like* the sound of these things. I look forward to the more completed version!

Ha-ha... shame on you for not reading through all 88 pages before posting

Thanks. Yeah, I know. I'm almost embarrassed of the nightclub video on Youtube now, because not only was the mike way too close, but I was mumbling and did a bad job with that scene. That's fixed now.

Also keep in mind that the original line was not "At your service". Also, it looks a little weird when Anakin says "I think he is a she" because in that shot, Hayden didn't actually say that. It was the shot with the line about the changleling, which I had to use from an editing standpoint.

I really do think that in the context of the film, it will not be jarring after the first few lines. And probably not even then when you re-watch the film and stop watching AOTC. Heh.. I've worked so long on this film that now HAYDEN is jarring. Although he was jarring to begin with (to me).

I think that like watching a black and white or letterboxed movie, the fact that Anakin has a different voice will distract you for about five minutes and then you'll get into the film and it won't matter. I think the new recordings are good as-is, but after Adywan is done with them (if he is able to do that) I really think you all will enjoy it.

Originally posted by: Dantha Fodder
Originally posted by: Marvolo
This does sound somewhat better than the first time, but I still prefer Hayden's audio. This just sticks out, because the voice is too deep. It doesn't sound natural. It sounds like you are intentionaly deepening your voice. If you are doing it to make him sound tougher then it isn't a good thing. People with voices that naturally deep are usually thicker built and stockier. Hayden is not built this way, and this new voice stands out. I don't take a person more serious just, because their voice is extremely deep.


I completely agree.

I personally don't dig the new voice. It is too deep, generally lacking in emotion and it still sounds dubbed, like a bad Japanese to American translated samari flick (something unavoidable, no matter no what ADR effect you tack on it).

I guess if this makes EpII more watchable for you Trooperman, then that's what counts, I just don't think a lot of people will take it seriously. Sorry.


See, I really don't believe it's unavoidable. There is a history of dubbed voices throughout Star Wars. Darth Vader, Aunt Beru, all of the creatures... I really think it's possible. I also don't believe that to have a deep voice you must be stocky in build. I'm pretty middle-of-the-road myself.

I think you all need some context on Anakin's personality. I really need to get this thing done....


Trooperman, personality and toughness has nothing to do with how deep your voice is. This is a cliché in old films. I don't take Anikan any more serious, because of his new deep voice. I also in no way think of Anikan being more dark and evil because his voice is deeper. I actually take him less serious, because with his build, and the way he carries himself it is unnatural for him to have a voice like that. If I met Hayden out on the streets, and he talked like that I would probably laugh ( not at your voice, but at how the voice would seem soo out of place with the way he looks and acts.) Now I think of Anikan as being some wimp who deepens his voice to appear macho. I know you are not deepening your voice, but when you put it with Hayden it seems like it has been artificially deepened.


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This is a cliché in old films.

Then I did my job- Star Wars was always full of cliches

OK, I think I understand, though. For you, a lower voice is irreconciliable with Hayden's onscreen image. Based on the way he looks and acts in the film, there's no way he could have that voice.

Yikes....

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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The new voice is certainly a considerable improvement over the old TM one, it really does feel like it fits into the scene. I do find the lipsynching (or lack of) a bit distracting, but I presume that you'll fiddle some more to try and get it down as best as it can be.

I'm really looking forward to this edit!
I am NOT a committee!
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Hi everyone.

I'm trying a different approach. The approach is to sound as boyish as possible for this rerecording. Because I've been thinking about the comments here, and I think it is true that at least for Episode II there are certain things you can't do taking the image onto the screen- they don't go together and I guess you can't stretch it that far. I think that for Episode III, a lower, more powerful voice would work much better- in fact Hayden's own voice is much better. But with Hayden in Episode II with the dumb smile and the pigtails...maybe I've been going overboard.

This hasn't been touched by Adywan yet, but please tell me if this is any better:

club1

club2

at your service

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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I've never been a terribly huge critic of the voice acting, other than the occassional suggestion here and there, but this really is 100% better if you can nail down the "making it sound more like it is actually on the soundtrack."
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1113/userbar381851ln2.gif
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8653/userbar381853dp6.gif
Super Mario Bros. - The Wicked Star Story
"Ah, the proverbial sad sack with a wasted wish."
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TM, that is sooooooo much better! This doesn't stand out and blends with what is onscreen a lot better. Great work!


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I concur. The club2 one sounds more like the first style, so you perhaps need to figure out a way to keep your "new" voice more consistent.
I am NOT a committee!
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Trooperman, I do like the new version of the voice more. It just feels more natural to the look of Hayden.

Part of the problem is that we all know the voice is being dubbed. It would be interesting to round up someone who's never seen Episodes II or III to listen to it.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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Oh, I'll show it to my mom. She has never seen episode II or III, or any other film with Hayden. She would never be the wiser. It would be a perfect test .
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I think its an improvement too mate. Your "acting" actually sounds a bit better too with this new approach.
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Originally posted by: Darth Richard
Oh, I'll show it to my mom. She has never seen episode II or III, or any other film with Hayden. She would never be the wiser. It would be a perfect test .


I can't wait

I'm really glad people seem to be happier with the voice. Once it's mixed correctly, I'm sure it'll be even better. I'll continue in the same way for the remainder of the recordings. Then it's just putting all of the audio elements together with Adywan and it's done.....

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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So can we take this to mean that all the video work is done?
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Originally posted by: Sluggo
So can we take this to mean that all the video work is done?


Practically done. There were a few match cuts I screwed up that I still need to splice into the MPEG. Mace's saber during the clone war section is not entirely done. And I need to do credits, which I'll probably just do along the way. Doing too much of sabers and credits at a time makes you crazy

And I might add some more impact flashes to the clone war. But this is not significant stuff- the real "work" is done. Audio is where the focus is right now.

The content is all there as far as audio goes- every music cue, new sound effect and so on is here (I'm still missing a bit of new dialogue for minor characters), but the trick is putting all the different sourced audio together and making it sound professional and that it's all part of the same mix. For the actual film, they had multiple people on huge mixing boards with access to all the source materials. Here it's obviously a little more difficult. But with Adywan's help, it should

I do have a couple questions about mixing, if anyone can answer...

What is normalizing and how does it affect the mix?
How do you matrix four channels into a stereo mix?
During a downmix to mono, why do I lose some voices or effects that I had panned hard right or hard left? Is there a way to fix this? They just vanish, kind of like the echo in the death star chasm in SW. It's just not there.
How does dolby digital AC3 affect the mix? Does it compress things dynamically?

Obviously I don't want to blast the audience out with sound effects, but on the same token there are many points throughout the film where I really want a lot of sound/musical impact, so I don't want everything at the same level.

Basically, what volume should dialogue be in relation to the rest of the sound, more by 70's standards than modern standards?

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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TM, please, if you haven't done it already, back everything up.


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The new voice is a huge improvement. It still could be mixed in a little better, the "he is a she line" sounds great but then Obi Wan's "be extra careful" sounds like Obi Wan was talking on a comlink. The voice itself sounds very natural and that is the important thing.
But I must ask, did you alter the color in a lot of scenes. Because some of the clips on the youtube trailer looked more digital and less film like than the actual movie. The conveyer belt in the droid factory clip looked like it had all of the color and contrast of a cell phone picture. Or the 2004 special edition dvd's. I felt some of the night club scenes that were from episode II had too blatent of a golden hue.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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Knight: I think what he was going for was a more OT look in the sense of being a washed-out, dry universe where the colours aren't so rich or ...well, "sickly-sweet" is about the best word I've got for it. I actually think the Cantina does work as a result -- it does feel a lot more dry and dirty than the original version of that piece did. As for the factory, I'm still undecided.
"My teaching is like a raft used to cross a river. Only a fool would carry the raft around after he reached the other side!"
--Buddha
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The problem is, if to me they appear more digital rather than film, it clearly isn't more OT feeling for me. I've seen episode II so I will probably recognize most color alterations. I believe an example of a not so obvious one is the "Ani, is it really you" was slightly desaturated. Even if I wasn't familar with the film, I wouldn't want any scene that screamed: color alteration! I HATE films that make you go "Ooh look, the color is unnaturally adjusted. See everything's blue to show this scene is moody and depressing." Real subtle.

Lord of the Rings took me out of the movie on the first viewing with that crap. And even though I hadn't seen Empire and Jedi in full, I knew something just wasn't right the very first time when I watched the 2004 dvd's. I strongly feel color correction is a very difficult deal and that it is very easy to make something look far worse even though you think it looks so bold and great. I'm not really referring to Trooperman here. I frequently adjust color/contrast of digital photos I take and I'm now I look back at some "enhanced" photos and think "man I did that so wrong." I saved all the original images smartly. As the X0 project has shown, proper and accurate color correction are very hard and time consuming, you can't afford to gloss over it.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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Originally posted by: Knightmessenger
The problem is, if to me they appear more digital rather than film, it clearly isn't more OT feeling for me. I've seen episode II so I will probably recognize most color alterations. I believe an example of a not so obvious one is the "Ani, is it really you" was slightly desaturated. Even if I wasn't familar with the film, I wouldn't want any scene that screamed: color alteration! I HATE films that make you go "Ooh look, the color is unnaturally adjusted. See everything's blue to show this scene is moody and depressing." Real subtle.

Lord of the Rings took me out of the movie on the first viewing with that crap. And even though I hadn't seen Empire and Jedi in full, I knew something just wasn't right the very first time when I watched the 2004 dvd's. I strongly feel color correction is a very difficult deal and that it is very easy to make something look far worse even though you think it looks so bold and great. I'm not really referring to Trooperman here. I frequently adjust color/contrast of digital photos I take and I'm now I look back at some "enhanced" photos and think "man I did that so wrong." I saved all the original images smartly. As the X0 project has shown, proper and accurate color correction are very hard and time consuming, you can't afford to gloss over it.


This is a good point and I'll keep that in mind. I have made a lot of color alterations and there are a few scenes I want to go back to and tweak the color on- the droid factory, the balcony scene (very difficult) and the Obi-Wan/Dooku "Join me!" talk, which I think I went overboard on. The nightclub I really think has an older feel now.

I agree with what you said regarding the Lord of the Rings movies- the color correction was so, so bad on those, and it varied wildly from scene to scene, apparently to match the intended "mood". The 2004 Star Wars DVD's were also awful.

However, I feel that Ep. II is a different story. The first Star Wars shot entirely in HD, I think that radical methods were necessary to get it to feel natural. It is widely agreed upon that AOTC looked like garbage in the first place. According to cinematographer Oliver Stapleton, "when the first Digital Star Wars came out it looked so terrible that the industry was really shocked – especially after all the hype. The irony is that the next one looked OK (not great but OK), but it was too late – the damage was done by the first one."

The droid factory in particular is cited by many fans as being the worst Star Wars scene ever. With the bright, garish colors and the whole CG look to it, I'd be hard pressed to argue. So I did change that a lot, darkening and recoloring it to make it more dramatic looking but also to cover up how fake it would look were it brighter in there. Maybe it is too purple in there, maybe the contrast is too high. I can play with that. And yes, I desaturated the scene you referred to Anakin and Padme. I've pretty much desaturated the whole film because whether it was the camera that they used, or the process, or what... the saturation is just way too high (I think).

My color corrections are more to the end of making the CG less obvious and to give an older feeling to the movie than to force a "mood" upon the audience, as the Lord of the Rings films did. I hope none of the scenes in SOTDS go that far. I did change the funeral- now it happens at sunset. And the argument afterwards happens at dusk. That was definitely a creative decision- it was more dramatic to have it at sunset and I think it really improves the scene along with the new music. I've done a couple things like that, but if I could, I would have gone back to the shooting and fixed the problem there, because that's where a lot of the problems are. Practically everything's fully lit, brightly colored, and flat looking all the way through the movie. By eliminating that feeling and adding some grain to the image overall, I really think it's an improvement.

The good news is that after this comes out, if there are specific scenes that bother anyone color-wise, I can very easily go back, tweak the colors, splice it back into the master file, and it will show up in the next "release". I think as a whole, the film looks much more natural and less digital than AOTC did. I know people will realize the colors are different than AOTC- hopefully they will like this better

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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I think the color correction that you did to change the time of day will look pretty good. Lucas did it with Star Wars after all. The most digital looking scene for me in episode II is the start of the Clone War. Uggh, but I know you reedited that to give it a sense of purpose and a point. I think the problem with the colors was that the camera never picked up the full vibrancy and muddied some of the images, especially the CG and dark scenes. I just don't know how that can be fixed. With the saturation, some of the scenes probably looked a little too sweetened to cover the lack of good color vibrancy but then desaturating them reveals the lack of good subtle color pickup in the first place. I know you added a little grain but did you do anything else besides darkening and desaturation in most scenes. I feel there might be other ways to cover up the sickeningly sweet shinyness without having to take away the color. Would boosting the midtones or contrast work?
Using LotR as an example, I'm afraid desaturation alone would just make it look more like the top image. Any way to make it more like the bottom (my fix)?
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6316/1frodo376correctedresizwu4.jpg[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

The color tint issue I saw with some of the bar scenes is similar to the top image here. But I agree that it needed a more Mos Eisley cantina atmosphere.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8584/1aragorn4correctedresizxj5.jpg[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]

I was also wondering, what do you think about the cinamatography and color of The Phantom Menace?

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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Saintheart,

I see what you're saying. Desaturating it makes it look like an older film taken from a faded print, while your correction maintains the vibrancy of the colors. I wish I could make it look like that.

However, I think you hit upon the problem:

"I think the problem with the colors was that the camera never picked up the full vibrancy and muddied some of the images, especially the CG and dark scenes. I just don't know how that can be fixed. With the saturation, some of the scenes probably looked a little too sweetened to cover the lack of good color vibrancy but then desaturating them reveals the lack of good subtle color pickup in the first place. "


Your LOTR fixes work because LOTR was shot well to begin with on real film. Later, they altered it by tinting the color, but this can be reversed just about as easily. Episode II was shot on digital and looks horrible. It's not even a matter of restoring the original, natural colors; like you said, I don't think they were picked up in the first place.

"I know you added a little grain but did you do anything else besides darkening and desaturation in most scenes."

Yes, I recolored some scenes. I actually added color to the interior of Kamino because it looked so phony/perfect/CG. It's mostly more subtle than the droid factory, the balcony scene, and the sunset/dusk scenes.

There are a lot of other aesthetic difference (like the impact flashes) but overall, I just got the color of the film to a point where it was watchable for me. I wish the overall image was more colorful, but I didn't get good results when I tried that and I'm wondering whether it's even possible with this movie.

"Would boosting the midtones or contrast work?"

Not really. Although it helps. Lowering the contrast or brightening the image doesn't work either- that's what MagnoliaFan did to Episode II in an attempt to improve the overall image. It's just a very difficult thing when it was shot so badly in the first place. At one point I was even considering transfering the movie to tape after this was done and then recapture it to lose the edge. But the loss in quality would be too great.

I'll continue to experiment- maybe I'll hit upon something for the next edition. This upcoming release contains the scenes as I originally colored them, although I will go back and tweak the droid factory and the balcony.

Thank you for bringing this up, though- it's an interesting issue and it hasn't really been discussed very much

---------------------

EDIT:

I thought the cinematography on Episode I was much, much better, although special effects like Jar-Jar stick out like a sore thumb. It's also tough to tell with the current DVD transfer- I think we need a new release. I would definitely give Episode I a much less radical treatment colorwise than I did Ep. II.

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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This is something we're doing a great deal of thinking on too over at Reborn.

It's especially difficult for us, since we have to make TPM, AOTC and ANH all match up and feel like the same movie. There's no way we're going to be able to make it perfect. We're actually considering just throwing out the color palette all together and going with something drastic...like Pathfinder or something...dark and gritty...I dunno.

It's gonna be tough. Good luck with yours.


--ID