Originally posted by: zombie84 Its constructive criticism. The dub work is poor in execution and quality. Deal with it. Everyone seems to love everything else. If the dubbing remains as it is then it will be a large mar on an otherwise vastly improved film.
Its not shitting on it when its constructive and when you are otherwise in glowing support of the project. I think this is a fabulous project and my only hope is that the edit is left intact and the sound mix left open so that some time in the future it can be retrurned to and brought to the same professional level that the rest of the edit attains.
Trooperman has always made it clear he wants to hear all opinions and criticisms. I always keep in mind that he's doing a mountain of work and that it's a massive task to make a dubbed voice fit in with a production mix -- AND a very discouraging task as well. So it might do some good to always mix honey in with the vinegar so to speak.
Trooperman's limited resources have kept him from getting an actor to do all his dubbing-- but he has been using his own voice for Anakin. He says it's naturally that deep-- not "put on."
I wonder, Laserman, have you ever found techniques that help you "deal" with voice acting that you are "forced" to use? In other words, Trooperman is using the voice you heard and object to-- but do you have advice for making that track blend in with the others? (I'm not a mixer, so I may be using terms all wrong-- but I hope you get what I'm asking).
OK. No reason to get excited- I appreciate all feedback.
I recognize that there’s a problem with the voice, mostly in the mixing because it has to blend with everything else, synch with the video, and sound realistic. The reason that I’m taking longer is largely to work on the voice. And it is discouraging- very, very hard to make it work. And it’s not working yet.
Regarding acting: I am not a professional actor, and listening critically to the nightclub scene, I see that the tone of voice I’ve used here is a little weird. Also, I wasn’t talking loudly enough at the time (I hadn’t come up with the idea of all of the background chatter/music yet), so I had to bump the volume of the recording up to be heard. Another strike against a “natural” sound. And finally, the nightclub was the first clip in which I was experimenting with analogue processing to make it sound like an older recording. I’m a lot more familiar with it now, and looking back, I certainly overdid it and distorted it too much.
There are a couple other scenes and lines scattered throughout the picture that I’ll redo. But for the most part, I honestly don’t believe my acting is lacking. I should probably post a couple other clips for you to check out.
But I understand what a couple people are saying- this is too good to be brought down by bad voice work, either acting-wise or mixing-wise. With the whole film in front of me, I can pretty confidently say that most of the problems pertain to the mixing and not the acting.
If the voice is not completely up to snuff by the time release date rolls around, there are a couple things I can do.
1. Include an alternate audio track and put Hayden back in (although the initial reason for this was to take him out and start over with Anakin’s character) 2. Send all of the audio to a professional who can use their knowledge to take my mix, go back to the source recordings, and make it better (and I have gotten a couple of offers) 3. Release an “updated” audio track later on as my response to any of the criticisms.
However, I really hope to be able to take the next month or two and solely work on integrating Anakin’s dialogue into the rest of the mix. This type of attention has not started yet, and it’s reasonable that people would have objections to hearing Anakin’s dialogue that way in the finished film.
I understand that this factor is critical, so I’ll be devoting a lot of time to ensure that it doesn’t fall flat or become laughable. That would kill me…
Have to go now- very busy. Sorry for all the great previous feedback I haven't gotten to- I just wanted to step in and point out that you are not hearing the final mix in the shots containing Anakin.
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
Originally posted by: MTHaslett Trooperman has always made it clear he wants to hear all opinions and criticisms. I always keep in mind that he's doing a mountain of work and that it's a massive task to make a dubbed voice fit in with a production mix -- AND a very discouraging task as well. So it might do some good to always mix honey in with the vinegar so to speak.
Trooperman's limited resources have kept him from getting an actor to do all his dubbing-- but he has been using his own voice for Anakin. He says it's naturally that deep-- not "put on."
I wonder, Laserman, have you ever found techniques that help you "deal" with voice acting that you are "forced" to use? In other words, Trooperman is using the voice you heard and object to-- but do you have advice for making that track blend in with the others? (I'm not a mixer, so I may be using terms all wrong-- but I hope you get what I'm asking).
Oh, I completely understand. You work with what you have. I don't think the voice is electronically lowered, it just sounds like someone doing a cheesy voice in an octave lower than their normal one. If this is the case then i think it would benefit from a natural intonation. But this wouldn't exactly "fix" the issue. The issue is that the delivery is honestly worse than Hayden's, which is no surprise considering its a non-actor fan editor doing it. Its a very commendable effort to put yourself out there like that, but honestly if this is the "fix" then what is the point of re-doing it? Hayden's would be preferred, and it would blend better. The plus to re-dubbing all the dialog is that you are free to re-write it but I would say that what you gain through re-dubbing you more than loose in sheer implausibility. Listening to the footage made available, even things like "he's in there" and "yes master" come across as so jarring and out of place that i am dreading listening to the romance dialog, no matter how improved the scripted dialog may be. As a genuine "fix" to the film it is probably worse than what was originally there, although i will reserve true judegement until i see the whole thing, but I can't imagine it is drastically better than what was already previewed. Hence, as a genuine "fix" to the film it won't work in this aspect, it will merely be an interesting "alternate take" by a fan.
My suggestion to all of this is this: leave the raw materials and the edit open. Release the version being worked on when it is done, and then in the future it may be possible to get professionals--or at least those better than the editor--to come in and re-dub. This is by far the most extensive fan-edit i have ever seen attempted and I've been following it since it was proposed--but when i saw that the dialog was going to be re-written and re-dubbed to such an extent my fears were that it was going to come out sounding exactly the way it does now, which is amaturish and totally jarring. But audio dubbing is easy to fix. Hell, maybe some fan will see the edit and splice an improved version of the sound track together.
Anyway, i don't think i am telling anyone anything new. Anyone that watches the thing will know that the dubbing, at the very least, is "less-than-perfect". I'll be harsh and say it sucks because i believe in this project enough that i know it can be the best fan edit ever constructed if these glaring inconsistencies are ironed out. It was a bold thing to try to do, to entirely re-dub the main character, and it failed, but it can luckily be improved upon and re-done in the future. Maybe there are people here who could provide a better dub--i know when Trooperman first proposed it he asked around and everyone said "oh no, I'm not an actor," but maybe now they'll say "you know I'm not an actor but i think i would be more appropriate than Trooperman himself." If you look at all the fan films out there you occassionally run across some actors who are at a respectably professional level (ie Pink Five or whatever its called, amaturish though it still may be, is remarkably professional for a fan film)--perhaps if they see the final cut and you start asking again people will be more voluntary for their skills. I don't know what the complete history of this project is, but there are plenty of fanfilm discussion boards where you might find people, or people who know people, that can provide a more adequete level of skill for voice acting. Just a thought. Anyway, don't mean to sound too negative, i am very much optimistically looking forward to the completed project.
Just saw the night club scene, well done. The best tip I could give (and without reading others tips to avoid redundancy) for the voice over is to try to copy Hayden's delivery a little more--that will help with getting you and him in sync. Like you could just have his voice track going in like a headphone and just practice and practice, I mean if you're not already doing that I guess--if you are, then stay the course I suppose.
Thanks for the heads up. It would be great if the mix could be left open for replacement later, i.e. that the dialogu you record remains on a separate track in the mixing software so that you could easily replace it later if not happy with it.
Good point re you recording that dialogue before realising that the ambient noise was going to be louder, that would make a big difference.
I'm not sure how to describe what I hear when listening to it, as I said it is immediately recognisable to me, I think it has to do with the sound having a little 'self consciousness' to it, which often comes when sitting in a room with a microphone.
MTHaslett, as to how I have dealt with it in the past, I usually have just replaced the audio with someone else. However if getting a non actor to just lay down dialogue I always have them stand up at the mic and 'act' out the scene while standing there, they get more into the role that way and the recording is often more natural, probably also because they move arround more so you don't get the constant volume level that screams 'recorded later'. I never have them sitting down, it always gives a lackluster performance for some reason.
I also get fresh ears (i.e. someone who hasn't heard/seen it before) to listen to a scene without video and ask them what they think of each character's voice. It always results in useful feedback.
Anyway, it seems TM is well on top of it and is doing a lot of work on the audio before it is finished.
At any rate, even if the thing came out and the audio was abysmal then it would still be the most worthwhile thing I have seen in ages, and audio can always be replaced later. Even if the audio was really good, it still would pay to leave the mix open for later improvements. If the new edit is compelling enough, I think you would have some pros come out of the woodwork and offer their services.
Sorry, I really wasn't trying to stir things up. (Well, I guess I was a little bit when I started calling people "turds," but come on.) Light speed too slow??
TM, realistically speaking, I don't think the issues that a lot of people have complained about regarding Anakin's voice have much to do with the technical aspects of the recording (i.e. - filtering, blending, etc.)... But more to do with the voice itself. Honestly.
Evidence of this is that no one has yet uttered one negative comment about the Lama Su voice, and most people I've discussed it with think it's really great (based on the snippet we've seen from the trailer).
To be perfectly truthful, there is a quality to Anakin's new SOTDS voice which is extremely reminiscent of a martial arts movie which has been dubbed into English. Don't know what causes it, but it's definitely something related to the voice itself and not the technical details of the sound mix.
The other thing you have working against you, and this may be hard for you to believe, but there are alot of people who actually like Hayden's performance. And then there are those who may dislike Hayden's performance but have had five years to get used to it, and no other voice juxtaposed with his image will ever sound quite right to them.
Now, you know that I've been following this thread practically since the genesis. I've contributed music and helped in whatever way I could, and I have nothing but respect and admiration for the work you've put into this and for what you're trying to accomplish. I consider you a friend, and I passionately believe that the other aspects of this project are 100% pure gold. I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the things you're still coming up with. You've succeeded beyond expectations in every single area except for the voice. And unfortunately, I know it's what you've worked on the hardest.
The thing is... it is the one aspect which will make or break this project.
At this point, my friend, as controversial as all of this is, I think it's clear you've got to devote some serious thought to doing a version which retains Hayden's original voice in addition to the one you've already dubbed. As repugnant as it is to you, it may satisfy those less bothered by Hayden's performance. That way, people will have a choice.
You know that if you don't, then as soon as you release this thing someone else will immediately pull it apart and do a version that may not be up to the same level of quality that you'd like, and by that time it'd be out of your hands. I'd say it would be better for you the editor to do it before anyone else.
I don't think it needs to be Hayden's wooden performance just someone elses perhaps.
Does anyone really like Hayden's go at this. I actually liked him in other films but thought he was a dud in the prequels.
I only saw each of the prequels once so I'm not at all swayed by being 'used to' his performance vs the dub, but it still jumped straight out at me. Try playing *just* the audio without the video to a non star wars person as a test.
However, I haven't heard anything near the final version, so I'll keep an open mind. (ear?) At the end of the day though, it is your edit - I'm pretty sure people will pick the shit out the X0 release when we finally get that done.
Get it to the point where *you* like it, and everyone else can enjoy it or not, that is the nature of art.
Originally posted by: zombie84 I don't know what the complete history of this project is, but there are plenty of fanfilm discussion boards where you might find people, or people who know people, that can provide a more adequete level of skill for voice acting. Just a thought. Anyway, don't mean to sound too negative, i am very much optimistically looking forward to the completed project.
Kaydon_Sentry, the fan editor who did the Knights of the Old Republic Movie, provided the voice for the main character in his project. Check out the clips and maybe he could be considered.
if getting a non actor to just lay down dialogue I always have them stand up at the mic and 'act' out the scene while standing there, they get more into the role that way and the recording is often more natural, probably also because they move arround more so you don't get the constant volume level that screams 'recorded later'. I never have them sitting down, it always gives a lackluster performance for some reason.
Wow- why didn't that occur to me? I did all of my recording sitting down, not acting out the part, and close to the mic (hence the constant volume level).
At this point, my friend, as controversial as all of this is, I think it's clear you've got to devote some serious thought to doing a version which retains Hayden's original voice in addition to the one you've already dubbed. As repugnant as it is to you, it may satisfy those less bothered by Hayden's performance. That way, people will have a choice.
You know that if you don't, then as soon as you release this thing someone else will immediately pull it apart and do a version that may not be up to the same level of quality that you'd like, and by that time it'd be out of your hands. I'd say it would be better for you the editor to do it before anyone else.
Good point. I really can't stand the thought of someone tearing apart my movie- better to deliver everything from the get-go. It honestly wouldn't be difficult to put Hayden back in at the end for an alternate audio option- the only hard part would be dealing with the lines I've changed. Putting Hayden back in would involve some serious compromises creatively. But it's possible, and that way, there'd be something for everyone.
The good news is that I can put anyone in for Anakin if they do a good job. Myself, Hayden, myself doing a second run, or another actor. I am definitely not going to make the base mix WITHOUT Anakin's voice available to public, because then anyone could edit/dub SOTDS how they see fit. But if someone wanted to do Anakin, it would be very easy to put them in. Actually, my dream scenario would be a guy and a girl (actors) volunteering to do Padme and Anakin and doing it in the same room. I think that would bump up the realism considerably.
But I think I began to realize something after reading this comment:
no one has yet uttered one negative comment about the Lama Su voice, and most people I've discussed it with think it's really great (based on the snippet we've seen from the trailer).
This is true. Lama-Su sounded great with minimal effort. Nute Gunray sounded great with minimal effort. Jar-Jar and others sound great... with minimal effort.
The reason Anakin's taking me so long to get right is because... it was recorded badly. It's never going to be "right", or up to professional standards, unless I do it again. I was sitting down, recording close to the microphone, and probably focusing more on lip synch than on actually acting out the part.
Here's my plan. I'm not going to spend any more time mixing Anakin's voice just yet.
A) I'm going to finish all of the video, encode it, and put it on to DVD. Done. B) I'm going to tweak the sound mix- except for Anakin's voice. His voice will be muted in this version. C) Synch, burn, and put DVD in. D) Run the movie and do a "retake" of Anakin. I'll be standing up. I'll be acting the part out. I'll walk when he walks. Actually get angry when he gets angry. Etc. I can be far away from the mike, too. My equipment is good enough to where it'll pick it up very clearly even at a distance.
Then, I'll drop this newly recorded dialogue into the picture, tweak it, and finish the sound mix. Because I think that the amount of time spent on Anakin thus far has been to make something that doesn't work work, and that if I do a new recording in the way Laserman suggested, mixing Anakin will be as easy as mixing Lama-Su and the others.
You guys have opened my eyes quite a bit. Thank you.
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
my dream scenario would be a guy and a girl (actors) volunteering to do Padme
I'd volunteer to do Padme any day of the week (sorry couldn't resist)
If you have a good mike and a dead room then acting out the scene really helps, just don't stray too far from the mike, I've had people get carried away and ended up having to draw a chalk ring on the floor around the mike - None Shall Pass. If you move to far away the sound doesn't feel right even if the character has gone for a walk on screen.
To get an idea, take a look at any 'making of' for an animated film and you will see the actors standing at the mic stand, and they are usually acting their arses off while delivering the dialogue, but they don't stray too far.
Stuff like that (watching actors act at the mic) is even in the extras for ROTS. Hayden had to do a voice over for the lava scenes, and George made him run around, do push ups, etc....to make is sound like he was actually fighting.
I have no idea how far you have looked for a Padme (aside from these boards). Have you contacted a local fanclub or a chapter of the 501st or any other geek venue? Someone is out there for you. At least that what my mum is always telling to me
The voice still doesn't quite mesh with Obi-Wan's (a little tinny this time around- maybe it was the room I used), but I think it's probably an improvement.
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
Holy crap! Fantastic! That was much better. You did a great job. I loved the acting there--I have no issues with it. It's all technical from here--syncing, mixing, that sort of thing. But if this is any indication, we're in for a treat. You have no idea how excited this makes me. Keep up the awesome work! Two-Face - A Batman:The Animated Series Movie
Really? I thought his voice sounded clearer, and there were more variations in his tone to convey the emotions of what was happening. I thought take 2 was a great improvement. Two-Face - A Batman:The Animated Series Movie
