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Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released) — Page 26

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This is part of my breakdown of Qui-Gon's expanded role (the section pertaining to Episode I):

And while I do indeed support expanding Qui-Gon's role, it would be in a different way that Obi-Wan's life after death, as MTHaslett already pointed out. The problem with what I think you were getting at, TM, was that there can be no conversaions between Qui-Gon and the characters. This puts him in a very similar position as Obi-Wan in ANH after his death. He communicates with Luke in extreme moments, but they aren't chatting it up and we don't have Luke questioning how he's talking to him. In fact, Luke seems to not believe it himself at first. Here are some places I think dialogue from Qui-Gon would be approriate and meaningful:
-At some point during the space battle, when Anakin fires the torpedoes into the reactor for example, have Qui-Gon in his head: "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." Qui-Gon is straddling life and death here, so this could be interpreted as either a rememberance (he told Anakin this before the pod race), Force user-to-Force user communication (Luke and Vader at the end of ESB), or advice from the netherworld (Obi-Wan in ANH).
-When Obi-Wan is hanging in the pit, have Qui-Gon is his head: "Always be mindful of your surroundings." Then he remembers Jinn's lightsaber is still there and leaps up to kill Maul. That could be interpreted as the latter two options from above.
-I thought about having Qui-Gon die after "Promise me you will train the boy," (assumming you would keep that line), then have "He will bring balance. Train him," echo in the long shot, in Obi-Wan's head I assume. But that might be a little weird.
-I mentioned this before, but perhaps have some of Qui-Gon's tone poem in Anakin's head at the funeral. "It will be a hard life. One without reward, without remorse, without regret," etc. This would tie-in with the dream in your Episode 2, but again it might be a bit out of place.
-Qui-Gon dissapearing in the fire? Again, logically there would be some kind of reaction/response, so I'd say leave this as-is.
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Commander Courage:
Thanks for reminding me of your thoughts-- I get it now and I see where we depart. I would object to hearing so much Qui Gon spread around as you suggest. I want his link to be just with Anakin -- you seem to feel it would be more in line with established Jedi powers for him to spread good advice as he "crosses over," in a way similar to Obi Wan in ANH. I'm reaching for something new, something that only "the Chosen one" makes possible.

Here are the beats as I imagine them:

--Anakin's Naboo Fighter crashes into the droid ship hanger and stalls-- surrounded.

--Padme and her team get captured.

--Qui Gon meditates behind the red shield waiting to reach Maul/Grievous -- AS HE MEDITATES: he contacts Anakin with advice: "Concentrate on the moment"

--Anakin receives the message: he looks around, flipping switches -- no good.

--On Qui Gon: the red shield opens. Qui Gon fights with Maul/Grievous. He gets stabbed. Obi Wan Screams! CUT TO:

--Anakin screams (Using a shot from his dogfight/sound from Danny "The Shining") --

-- Red shield opens again, letting Obi Wan attack Maul/Grievous. Qui Gon lies in a heap...

--Qui Gon's voice in Anakin's head " be mindful of your surroundings..." Anakin pops the trigger on the torpedoes. He blasts away, yelling.

-- Cut outside, the chain reaction starts destroying the ship. Anakin gets the ship going and leaves.

-- Droidship explodes.

--Droids fail on battlefield.

-- Obi Wan kills Maul/Grievous

-- Anakin flies home, looking distraught (using Naboo fighter footage and Anakin shots from the dogfight -- montaging into nicer end of battle stuff) hearing Qui Gon's Tone Poem. We establish the victory which Anakin has brought about. Finish on the saddest shot of Anakin we can find.


---


That's the headlines of the idea. I don't know if we're really so far apart on this. I think the major difference is I want the construction of a shocked/hurt Anakin reaction to Qui Gon's death. I think that's the moment this whole movie should have been building toward. This is, after all, a saga about Anakin.

That was the promise made to me by all that great marketing! (Great points about that stuff, InfoDroid -- especially about the music, I hadn't thought of it, but you are right in my opinion).

Last point: it's these quiet moments about character decision/reflection/change that are so powerful in the OT and so stilted, truncated, or just fouled up in the PT. I think the tone-poems feel OT as trailers because they have a similar poetic quality. They represent a real resource for getting that kind of poetic quality into the Prequels. We should think creatively about ways to get them in-- not just any old excuse, but great, creative ideas that could allow them to be incorporated as voice over, inner monologue, actual dialogue or whatever.


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Ok, now that you break it down I better understand your ideas as well, and we are indeed on the same page. I still think "Always mind your surroundings" is a much better fit for Obi-Wan looking to the lightsaber than Anakin finding the right button in the starfighter. But the connection we'd be establishing here would be between Anakin and Qui-Gon, no one else. That I like, but what about the explanation of the Force spirits? I believe TM's plan for that was to cut Yoda's mention of Qui-Gon on RotS and have his ghost appear ever so breifly as Obi-Wan walks back into the desert after delivering Luke (oh, and a way must be found to remove the Eopie from this scene!). Will that be enough? I hope so. More on that another time.

You also inquired as to my thoughts on Darth Maul's "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge." This is one of the coolest lines in the PT, and ties into the titles of Episode III. Of course when you look at just the movies, it is never explained what they want revenge on the Jedi for, other than the fact that they're evil, and I think this is what you're getting at. I suppose I could argue it adds mystery to their motivations, a good thing, but like Syfo-Dias, this "mystery" is never answered on film. Maybe there is a way an explanation of the Jedi/Sith background can be incorporated into Episode I, but I haven't a clue how to do it. My best suggestion is to have Anakin ask Qui-Gon what a Sith is and he explain it to the boy, on the landing platform in place of the midichlorine discussion. The logistics of this are beyond me at this point, barring traveling back in time to the production of TPM and filiming the scene with Jake and Liam. There's only so far dialogue from other sources can take you, but perhaps we can cobble something together.

As for Darth Maul/Grievous himself, I'd want to use as much dialogue of his as possible. Whoever it was the dubbed his voice was awesome, and it sure would be great to get him to dub Grievous for us in Episode III. The tone poem is excellent, but where can you put it? The first place that springs to mind is his arrival on Tatooine, but would a Sith talk/think to himself like that? And hearing a characters inner monologue isn't a Star Wars technique, so I don't know how to approach this exactly.
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Commander Courage:
Ok, now that you break it down I better understand your ideas as well, and we are indeed on the same page. I still think "Always mind your surroundings" is a much better fit for Obi-Wan looking to the lightsaber than Anakin finding the right button in the starfighter. But the connection we'd be establishing here would be between Anakin and Qui-Gon, no one else.

***

Right-- if it gets to be Qui-Gon and Anakin and Obi Wan-- then why not Yoda? Why not Mace? It gets too broad-- but keeping it on Anakin helps fix what's broken: namely, the spine of the story.

I think you're right about the line. I was just whipping it together, and "Always mind your surroundings" doesn't really work, especially after Qui Gon's fallen. Better and simpler would be to see Qui Gon struggling to hold on to life -- cut to Anakin struggling in the cockpit -- "ANAKIN!" yells Qui Gon's voice, desperate, unable to communicate everything he wants to-- "ANAKIN!" Anakin makes a decision on his own: I'll blast this mot**r f**ker! Is Qui Gon glad? Is Anakin showing his darker side? Leave it more emotionally charged and less logical and dot-dot-dot.

---

Commander Courage:
That I like, but what about the explanation of the Force spirits? I believe TM's plan for that was to cut Yoda's mention of Qui-Gon on RotS and have his ghost appear ever so breifly as Obi-Wan walks back into the desert after delivering Luke (oh, and a way must be found to remove the Eopie from this scene!). Will that be enough? I hope so. More on that another time.

***

I think that is a great solution -- visuals over exposition. I don't think it affects this storytelling choice in Episode I -- except to maybe explain how a dying Qui-Gon was shown powers he didn't know he had by being in communion with the chosen one as he died. Not that we have necessarily established that-- but it is there if you look for it. That's better than the "well, he just came back from the other side to give us a little help" explanation that's there now.

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Oh, one more thing pertaining to ALL the prequels, "Annie" must be eliminated wherever possible. I'd say Shmi should be the only one to call him that.

So here's some dialogue for a Sith explanation scene in the place of the Midichlorine scene:

ANAKIN: Qui-Gon, sir, I don't want to be a problem.
QUI-GON : You won't be Anakin. I'm not allowed to train you, so I want you to watch me and be mindful. Always remember, your focus determines your reality.
ANAKIN: Master sir, I've been wondering, what are Sith?
QUI-GON: Agents of evil, adversaries of the Jedi and followers of the Dark Side of the Force. A thousand years ago the Jedi and Sith fought a great war in which the Sith were exterminated, or thought to be.
ANAKIN: What could they want now?
QUI-GON: Vengence. There is something else behind all this but for now their motivations remain a mystery.
ANAKIN: So what are the Jedi going to do?
QUI-GON: Whatever is necessary. Don't worry, Anakin. Stay close to me and you'll be safe.

So that's a basic outline of what I was thinking for the scene. If anyone has any ideas on where to get clips that might work for something like this (other movies, interviews, etc.) please don't keep them to yourself.
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Trooperman,

We haven't heard a lot from you, so I know you're busy. But you did say to get our ideas to you asap-- and I have these ideas on my desk. (And unlike all the other crap I've posted here this weekend-- this has to do with EPISODE II.

Ideas for snips and changes to enhance the droids and the emotion:

--"Feature" Artoo (with either close ups or more interesting "dialogue") at beginning of all sequences with Padme/Anakin (add Anakin dialogue "Hurry up, Artoo" as the approach Padme's family house) Insert close ups. -- arriving/walking across courtyard at Naboo; walking up to Padme's house; walking into Owen Lars farm.

--Key missing Sound effects: WIND needs to be added to the Kenobi/Windu talk on the flight deck -- it sounds like they're talking in a green screen studio (I wonder why?); There need to be cool Star Wars kitchen noises as Beru gets tea. More environmental noises (WIND, animal CRIES, ECHOES) on Geonosis exteriors. Muffled factory noises as Kenobi walks toward droid factory (everything is so quiet, like a church). Carpet the Geonosis interiors with loud/muffled factory noises (as the shots dictate)-- it's a frickin' factory, fer chissake. Add sounds of Sandpeople outside as Anakin saves Shmi -- they could arrive at any moment as he holds her, but he doesn't care.

--Shorten things as we arrive on Lars farm. 1. Threepio's awkward shuffle upon seeing Anakin is painfully bad to me -- I suggest you Cut off his line at "Oh!" when he hears why Anakin's there. Then have Threepio pause... "I see..." Then he walks off, knowing this is bad, but unsure what to say. 2. Next scene -- Cut off Threepio's introduction at "Master Owen..." (cut "Let me introduce two important characters..."). Let Anakin say "I'm Anakin Skywalker" Cut Owen's introduction of Beru completely - it's awkward and we don't need it. 3. Shorten the shots of Beru getting tea. Get us upstairs faster.

Recut Clieg Lars telling the Shmi story extensively: emphasize Padme and Anakin. It's cut now without a hell of a lot of thought-- I'll post my ideas for this soon.

When Padme says goodbye to Anakin before he races off to see his mom, they have a bunch of dialogue that means NOTHING! The awesome scene needs silence -- except for at the hug when she says "Anakin." Bringing up the music cue earlier will make the scene work as it's supposed to-- play the entire piece instead of cutting it off the way it is now.

--It is possible to have too many close ups, apparently. The end of Anakin/Padme scene in garage where he cries about not being a good enough Jedi-- the close ups actually ruin the tension because they are not good. The scene plays better from the master shot, and there's plenty of it. I recommend cutting those close ups of Anakin and Padme.

--Another Artoo scene: The arrival of Kenobi's message. First, move it between the Anakin/Padme garage scene and the funeral-- so Kenobi's invading Anakin's private space again. Second, Give Artoo a more animated job trying to get good reception: He sees Kenobi, but the message fizzles; he turns to plug into the wall, he struggles to keep a lock on it, his whistles and chirps say "Come on-- come on-- come on, you bastard, work!" and then finally, "Got it!" That could be a charming Artoo bit, right in character for him and welcome at this point in the story.

--There's too much emphasis on the shot in the Arena of Boba Fett holding Jengo's head -- I recommend shortening it ever so slightly and making it a bit of a "background" shot by playing the rocket sounds of taking off ships loudly as he holds the helmet -- everyone's leaving and no one cares... I think this will play more poignant and less as an interruption.

That's all I have for now. I will have to get back to you with details about how I'd fix the Clieg Lars tells Shmi's story scene. I see clearly how it should play more off Anakin and Padme's faces -- not Clieg. Who cares to look at that guy while he talks? The point is supposed to be Anakin getting pushed to the edge-- but you'd never get it from the way that scene is cut.


Thanks for reading. You are King of the Ranch!

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WOW did this thread go off on a tangent in the last couple days No, just kidding, because I understand that what you're talking about with Episode I DOES apply to Episode II. For instance, does Gunray's subtitle go like this:

Gunray: What about the Queen from Naboo? Is she dead yet? I'm not signing your treaty until her head is in my hands.

or like this:

Gunray: You keep ignoring the Jedi. You will kill the boy, won't you? I can never forgive him who murdered my brother in cold blood.


You fellows are right, though; I've been trying to look at this as an individual piece, but as you say, I don't want to "paint myself into a corner". First, I want to remind you of a few things regarding my plan for Episode I:

-German speaking Nemoidians and Gungans
-The title will simply be "Star Wars", with no episode number (as you say, hinting towards a stand-alone film)
-There will be a prologue at the beginning ("A long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away, there was a great war. The Jedi Knights and the lords of the Sith..." etc.). This prologue will perhaps use shots from other films, spaceships, and other things to accompany the narrative and give some history for the 6-movie saga. Obviously, we would have to write the backstory and figure out what happened, similar to the extended universe novels out there that I've never read.

Maybe there is a way an explanation of the Jedi/Sith background can be incorporated into Episode I, but I haven't a clue how to do it.

See, the whole Jedi/Sith revenge thing would be explained in the prologue. The Jedi creamed the Sith and the Sith were hunted down and killed. But forever afterward, there were whispers that the Sith were still alive.... and that's when the title card and the crawl come up.

Now, the whole Ep. I discussion is very intriguing stuff- however, I will comment when I have more time, maybe. For now, I will just concentrate on Ep. II and leave the subtitles until later. There's good news- forum member Citizen has agreed to get me the HD Blade Runner footage I needed to make the nightclub work. Thank you, Citizen!

I see you plan an interior shot on the Queen's ship here too and I think that's brilliant-- what if it can establish (falsely) that Padme's actually on board -- a shot of Padme's double or something?

As was brought up, I thought that was what the original scene did. Maybe you don't remember because you are watching an edited version of Ep. 2?

A quick one: in the opening sequence where the ships are flying into Coruscant-- go back to TPM for a close up of Artoo in the back of a Naboo Fighter. This would cue us into his presence and p.o.v. before we even get to the landing deck.

Good idea.

Musically, it might be cool to think about incorporating that fluttery little droid motif from ESB whenever we see the droids.

EXCELLENT idea. That will help a great deal.

Were you able to get the DVD-quality title cards you were looking for from the "Empire of Dreams" documentary, or have you still not picked up the SE Trilogy on DVD? If not, I may be of some help, just let me know.

PM sent

Just as a thought, if this is going to become a complete trilogy redo, someone might want to start taking notes to put together a "bible" of sorts for the new universe that's being created so good ideas don't become impossible because of other changes. A basic timeline of events and possible shots used to represent them perhaps.

That would be great. I really should do that. My overall orginization on this project has been awful- all I have is a 16- page list of personal notes, and this rambling thread I've created, in which I've posted inconsistent, lengthy ideas for changes that jump from scene to scene, conceptual to technical, dropping a release date in that mess, changing the release date...etc. etc. What I should do soon is to map out the new "universe" and plot points, compile a complete list of changes starting from Commander Courage's (and post it at the top of the thread), go through the whole thread and take notes on EVERYTHING to ensure I remember everything during cutting, and put ALL the pictures and video clips in one place, maybe even finding another site or host to do multimedia on. I've been doing a sloppy job and I'm sorry about that. Maybe that's part of why some people don't get involved in the brainstorming here- they feel lost in this thread. I'll see what I can do about this.

And this is also a good time to think about where exactly I stand on the whole six film saga. Because I don't know. You've said that Sidious in Episode I only makes sense after seeing the OT, which has truth to it. But what order would I like these to be watched? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6? Doing that would bring up the question....what about the whole "I am your father" revelation that is wrecked by Episode III? How far do I want to go to make it run 1-6? Because as it's been said, someone who's never seen Star Wars is probably not going to see my version first. Maybe the order of initial viewing could be: 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6. Not sure if you understand...I'm just confused about what I'm trying to do here in terms of the big picture. What would you as the audience like?

I agree. Most of the cinematography was horrible. Nothing like the OT.

I feel very strongly about this. Come on; I didn't expect a noir movie, but the framing throughout is just so incredibly bad. Forget any dark angles or moving camera or lighting; the characters are usually perfectly centered in the frame and looking ahead, perfectly lit at all times. I can't stand it.

Oh, one more thing pertaining to ALL the prequels, "Annie" must be eliminated wherever possible. I'd say Shmi should be the only one to call him that.

Absolutely. Another thing that MUST be cut for Ep. III is “younglings”.

MTH, I’ll respond to your comments regarding Ep. II soon. Basically, I liked all of them.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Oh, and regarding the Sypho-Dias scene: Search your feelings And don't worry about it, as it's completely figured out. However, I have an invitation...

Would anyone like to have a stab at writing the second Lama-Su scene right now? It looks as though Nanner Split is ready to record soon. Here are my plans

-Boba Fett is Jango's natural son.
-The scene starts with Lama-Su saying, "Moral implications? I should have expected something like that from a Jedi." (laughs). "Oh...we don't concern ourselves with that here, Kenobi." Obi-Wan: I see.
-Lama-Su rambles on about the growth acceleration and all the other delightful details of the cloning operation (like the guy in "Brave New World") while Obi-Wan is mostly silent. “Lama-Su: Otherwise, a mature clone would take a lifetime to grow. Obi-Wan: Really.” (unimpressed and a little sarcastic. Lama-Su ignores him.) “Now we can do it in half the time.” Obi-Wan is silent.

These are pretty much the only restrictions. Remember, Obi-Wan is for the most part silent and not happy about the clones, and Lama-Su is rambling like the guy in Brave New World. He can say whatever we want, being redubbed.

Thanks everyone!

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Those are some really great suggestions you've put forth, MTH! I'd like to second those (if we're voting). And the best part is: The changes you've mentioned are all very feasible. An idea isn't worth much unless it can be constructed it out of the materials that are available to us.

Originally posted by: MTHaslett


--There's too much emphasis on the shot in the Arena of Boba Fett holding Jango's head -- I recommend shortening it ever so slightly and making it a bit of a "background" shot by playing the rocket sounds of taking off ships loudly as he holds the helmet -- everyone's leaving and no one cares... I think this will play more poignant and less as an interruption.


And I'd like to add just one more thing to this. I think the "Boba Fett theme" - the low, rumbling bassoon motif from ESB could be very cool for this scene.

Or would that detract from what you're suggesting? As making it more of a background thing?


And thanks for the update Trooperman! You kick A**!!!

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-The title will simply be "Star Wars", with no episode number (as you say, hinting towards a stand-alone film)
I do find that a neat concept, but remember the first LotR wasn't "The Lord of the Rings," it was "The Fellowship of the Ring," LotR serving as the title for the overal series. I think every movie should have its own subtitle; I'm one of those people who refer to the '77 film as "A New Hope." Just something to think about.

-There will be a prologue at the beginning ("A long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away, there was a great war. The Jedi Knights and the lords of the Sith..." etc.). This prologue will perhaps use shots from other films, spaceships, and other things to accompany the narrative and give some history for the 6-movie saga. Obviously, we would have to write the backstory and figure out what happened, similar to the extended universe novels out there that I've never read.

Very LotR-esque, but we are going for a saga here. All logistics aside (that will be the fun part), do you think this is straying too far from Star Wars tradition? Being "Episode I" do you think it can take that liberty to explain the backstory of the backstory that we didn't get much of onscreen? (I lean that way too, btw.)

And this is also a good time to think about where exactly I stand on the whole six film saga. Because I don't know. You've said that Sidious in Episode I only makes sense after seeing the OT, which has truth to it. But what order would I like these to be watched? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6? Doing that would bring up the question....what about the whole "I am your father" revelation that is wrecked by Episode III? How far do I want to go to make it run 1-6? Because as it's been said, someone who's never seen Star Wars is probably not going to see my version first. Maybe the order of initial viewing could be: 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6. Not sure if you understand...I'm just confused about what I'm trying to do here in terms of the big picture. What would you as the audience like?

You seem to be looking at this more as a saga now, which is a good thing. That said, if you're going that route I think it's time you reconsidered editing the OT as well. Blasphemy, I know. Part of the problem with Star Wars is how seperate the PT and OT are considered; as good as the originals are, making all 6 films flow like a true saga requires alterations to both trilogies (besides, most of the "work" to be done to the OT has already been and will be adressed by MagnoliaFan and DarthEditous). I understand you are a strong defender of the O-OT, as am I, but this being your version of the saga, I think it's only fair to give the originals some attention as well after all the effort spent on the prequels. You are of course, the boss, and have the final word, but I would again encourage you to consider this.
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Wow, there has been soo much discussion on this thread in the last 4 days, I'M LOVIN' IT! It's very interesting to start reading everyones interpretations of editting episode I to match SOTDS and the episode III edit. I too would love to see a HUGE overhaul done to 1 and 3, just as much as is being done on SOTDS. I can't wait till we have a proper discussion thread for this so I can throw out some neat changes I had in mind for episode 1. And SOTDS just gets my imagination running (good ole star wars) as to what can be done to make the other prequels into movies that stand on their own. Reading Troopermans recent ideas for episode 1 are interesting. I think i'm with commander courage however, it does feel a little too lotr-esque to have the prolouge at the beginning. But thats just my opinion, it may work. With some of the ideas floating around, however, we can still make episode 1 into an amazing movie with added lighting, dialouge, effects changes, alternate scenes, and of course a COMPLETE remake of the soundtrack would evolve the movie into a MONSTER of a flick. The episode 1 we all wanted to see (based on TPM characters and rough plot).

Whew, this thread is just exciting now. Hey TM, I know that your probably busy, but I was just curious as to when you would think of putting together a trailer for SOTDS? I couldn't think of anything more to wet my appetite and was just curious. Everybody has got some amazing ideas flowing around here, keep em coming!

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Originally posted by: Commander CourageThat said, if you're going that route I think it's time you reconsidered editing the OT as well. Blasphemy, I know. Part of the problem with Star Wars is how seperate the PT and OT are considered; as good as the originals are, making all 6 films flow like a true saga requires alterations to both trilogies (besides, most of the "work" to be done to the OT has already been and will be adressed by MagnoliaFan and DarthEditous). I understand you are a strong defender of the O-OT, as am I, but this being your version of the saga, I think it's only fair to give the originals some attention as well after all the effort spent on the prequels. You are of course, the boss, and have the final word, but I would again encourage you to consider this.


Ulp. You went ahead and said it.

Well, I consider this essential IF the "Saga" is ever really going to hold together. If there are 6 Episodes, and Episode I sets it all up, then Episode I should come first. Naturally. Ideally.

That said, I think the Saga needs to address the "reveal" that Vader is Anakin as seen in Episode V. I've long been bothered by this because it actually screws with things in "Episode IV" which was written without that idea. Vader wasn't Anakin until the 3rd Draft of ESB.

I love the twist, but I don't like how Obi Wan went from being so cool when I saw Star Wars to being such a lying, desperate, guilt-laying old man in ROTJ. I have ways of addressing this -- and will if I have to do the editing myself. It's really a thorn in the side of the Saga.

And aside from a few good moments, ROTJ is a movie I just don't like. It is barely better than AOTC in any honest accounting, guilty of so many similar sins.


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I think the OT could benefit from some minor changes, mostly musical, to make the saga flow more as a whole. The Across the Stars theme for the Luke/Leia scene in ROTJ. A re-recorded, less-forceful version of Battle of the Heroes for the Obi-Wan/Vader duel in ANH (or maybe even just the eight-note lead in would be sufficient). And certainly the addition of the Imperial March to ANH.

ROTJ could benefit from some tightening of the Jabba's Palace sequence, and the removal of a lot of the Ewok stuff.

My opinion, however, is that the saga should be strictly viewed in order as I-VI.

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Ok I'm glad the council seems to be in agreement with me on this. I have a list of sorts in mind, nothing too fancy just small edits and alternate dialogue here and there. InfoDroid is right in that a major part of OT editing would be music, his examples in particular. And like MTH I have my fair share of issues with RotJ; it'd be interesting to compare notes on how to bring it up to par with ANH and ESB. Before we go any further on that, however, Trooperman will have to give such a project his blessing, and even then it wouldn't be for a few years down the line after we finish up with the PT.
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Yeah-- we ain't no where without our leader. And even then, being years away from completion? I'll have to get into this game myself and find out what set up I need to make a fan edit myself.

I'll have my list of things for ROTJ -- but it's brutal. The whole Jabba sequence makes so little sense ("...Let's see, Lando? You sneak in and gets a job as Jabba's guard. No wait, it'll work. Then send the droids in to threaten him and I'll come get caught after Leia gets herself caught while freeing Han. Then we'll all go to the Sarlac pit where Artoo will be in perfect position to throw me my lightsaber. Whattaya mean, how? Why, he'll be hired as a drink server of course! Aren't you paying attention?")

And that's the fun part of the movie!

Anyway, I think the best way to fix the Saga involves changes to ANH-- because it's the one movie that was written without the saga in mind. It plays all on its own, but as "Episode IV" it has a lot of problems.

Have I gone too far?

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
I'll have to get into this game myself and find out what set up I need to make a fan edit myself.

I've got a brand new three-thousand-dollar PC with a 64-bit processor, two spacious hard-drives and all the appropriate software (Adobe Premiere, After Effects, Womble, etc.) designed and geared specifically for film editing, but sadly, I have no idea how to make a finished product, otherwise I'd be working on an edit right now. I wish I knew where to get the info on how to use this stuff. Because right now, it's serving as a $3,000 CD/DVD burner.

I'll have my list of things for ROTJ -- but it's brutal. The whole Jabba sequence makes so little sense ("...Let's see, Lando? You sneak in and gets a job as Jabba's guard. No wait, it'll work. Then send the droids in to threaten him and I'll come get caught after Leia gets herself caught while freeing Han. Then we'll all go to the Sarlac pit where Artoo will be in perfect position to throw me my lightsaber. Whattaya mean, how? Why, he'll be hired as a drink server of course! Aren't you paying attention?")


So true. This is where Lucas' sensibilities began to decay.

Anyway, I think the best way to fix the Saga involves changes to ANH-- because it's the one movie that was written without the saga in mind. It plays all on its own, but as "Episode IV" it has a lot of problems. Have I gone too far?


Blasphemy!

Seriously though, MTH, with the exception of editing down some of the long pauses between dialogue to make it more kinetic, and the musical additions/subtractions, what would you change?

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Just to add in a real quick idea for "fixin up" ROTJ. I always thought if you had the ewok creatures actually BLINK their eyelids it would make the creatures more believable and perhaps a little creepier (or maybe it's no blinking which is creepy). Anyhow, if people have the ability to add in such simple effects to the shots, it may improve the performance of the ewoks. Just an idea. Continue!


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InfoDroid: "Seriously though, MTH, with the exception of editing down some of the long pauses between dialogue to make it more kinetic, and the musical additions/subtractions, what would you change?"

***

Okay-- first I want to make clear these changes are only to make ANH fit better into the Saga. Personally the first Star Wars movie is the best, the only one that stands on its own, flawlessly and magically. ESB is nice, but it doesn't end and we all know how that turned out ;-P

But to turn this into a Saga that one enjoys best in a 1,2,3,4,5,6 fashion, some sacred stuff will go if I have my way-- because the 1977 movie was the adventure of Luke Skywalker, but then it became "A New Hope" -- Episode IV in the adventures of Anakin Skywalker.

To embrace the Saga, I'd want more context-- I'd want to see what's the Emperor up to? Since this is our first chance to see Darth Vader in action, I'd tweak things to emphasize this point. I'd emphasize things that reveal Anakin inside the suit-- choices that would once make Anakin cringe now fill his life. I'd show some of Alderann to up the stakes of its destruction...

But the biggest change, and the biggest issue heading into the OT, regards the issue that Vader is Luke's Dad. As it stands, Obi Wan chooses to lie to Luke completely and basically set Luke up for a gigantic fall for no good reason. The only way this makes sense is if we can be kept in the dark about Vader's identity-- but now that's impossible. It's not even desirable or necessary-- make the change that redeems Obi Wan and makes him honorable again: have Ben tell Luke that Vader is his father.

It means manipulating the scene where he gives Luke the lightsaber. Have Ben explain that Anakin was a great Jedi and a good man, but that he was seduced by the Dark Side as sometimes happens. Those were harsh times and choices had to be made, so Luke was hidden from his father and Uncle Owen doesn't want Luke to know the truth. But now Princess Leia and the Rebellion need Luke.

Luke's reaction would be to join Ben more quickly, but on his trip to say goodbye to Owen, he finds them dead. His reactions throughout the rest of the movie are already, with minor adjustments, appropriate to acommodate this change.

And man, does it charge the rest of the movie up knowing that Luke already knows Vader's identity. It necessitates tweaks throughout, but not all that much.

Then, in "Empire Strikes Back," the adjustment needs to be made setting up Luke for the big reveal: that Obi Wan is the one who basically killed Anakin. Obi Wan didn't mention this. He lied! Vader doesn't want to kill Luke-- Luke can join him and rule the Galaxy! Defeated, and without options, Luke chooses suicide -- only to be rescued.

Then things carry on-- adjusting for these fixes as they go. (Along with a LOT more when we get to the crap-fest at Jabba's palace and the over-doing it with the Ewoks).

I realize this sounds drastic-- but it sure fixes things for me. Especially as regards fitting ANH into the Saga. In this draft, Obi Wan becomes as honorable as he seemed when the first movie was all there was.


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I see there is talk of edits after Episode II. Well, (and, Trooperman I hope that you don't mind me talking about my edits again in this thread) these are the crawls I was thinking of using for episode I and, III.

Star Wars

Conflict has arisen in
the Galatic Republic. The
taxation of trade routes
to the outer star systems
is in dispute.

The Trade Federation has
stopped all shipping to
the small planet of
Naboo, In a desperate
move with a blockade
of deadly battleships.

The Supreme Chancellor has
informed Queen Amidala that
he has secretly dispatched
two Jedi Knights, the
guardians of peace and
justice in the galaxy, to
settle the conflict....


Episode III
THE SITH TAKE REVENGE


The fires of the Clone Wars
are burning throughout the galaxy. The
CONFEDERACY OF INDEPENDANT SYSTEMS
has dealt one crippling blow after another
to the Republic.

Recalled from a battlefront in
the Outer Rim, General Kenobi and
Anakin return to Coruscant
to find that, the malicious cyborg
General Grievous has infiltrated the capital
and abducted Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.

As the Separatist Droid Army flees Coruscant
with its valuable hostage, the Jedi Order send
three Jedi to rescue the captive chancellor....

Where I got the confederacy of independant systems part is from the game's book intro. Which reads:

The fires of the Clone Wars are burning throughout
ever corner of the galaxy. Guided by the Sith and
under the direct leadership of Count Dooku, the
Confederacy of Independent Systems has dealt one
crippling blow after another to the Republic. Recalled
from a battlefront in the Outer Rim, Obi-Wan Kenobi and
Anakin Skywalker return to Coruscant to find the planet
under siege. Seeking to drive the Republic into further
chaos, the malicious cyborg General Grievous has
infiltrated the capital and abducted Supreme Chancellor
Palpatine. As the Separatist army flees Coruscant
with its prize, Obi-Wan and Anakin lead an urgent
rescue mission to free the captive Chancellor.
The fate of the galaxy rides with them; failure could mean
an end to the war... and to the Republic itself.


I don't know how well you could add backstory to the Jedi in a prologe. At least without the crawl going on for too long.
Also, I read about trying to make Darth Maul = Grevious and, I think it's a bad idea. If he didn't die the way he did I wouldn't mind it at all. However, he dies by being sliced in half. If they have the technology to save a person from that. Then, a lot of the deaths become questioned. Especially, when you do get to episode III(Is Mace now in a suit? Did, Palpatine put Dooku in a suit[the head does live for a few minutes after getting cut off and, his body might on the half that landed and, blood loss wouldn't be an issue so, he would live even longer mabye ten or, twenty minutes]? Who else is in a suit? ). Also, in the original trilogy the technology's supposed to be even more advanced so, that brings into question the danger of all the characters. If some one in that same universe can survive being choped in half why be afriad that anyone get's hurt at all? So, basically what I'm saying is that if you can make it so that he dies whole then, I wouldn't be against it but, as it is now it just brings up more questions. It is possible with editing though. He's whole until he flips over. You could let it go on a little bit more so, that he's cut but, not fully and, that's why he would need the suit.

http://twister111.tumblr.com
Previous Signature preservation link

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Originally posted by: MTHaslett


To embrace the Saga, I'd want more context-- I'd want to see what's the Emperor up to? Since this is our first chance to see Darth Vader in action, I'd tweak things to emphasize this point. I'd emphasize things that reveal Anakin inside the suit-- choices that would once make Anakin cringe now fill his life. I'd show some of Alderann to up the stakes of its destruction...

I agree on this point, and it would all be great! But how would it be feasible for a fan-made project? I mean, you can't just call up Jimmy Smits and Ian McDiarmid and ask them to be in your illegal fan edit. And I'm not sure how one could creatively accomplish this using the resources we have available to us. Maybe you're seeing something I'm not seeing?

But the biggest change, and the biggest issue heading into the OT, regards the issue that Vader is Luke's Dad. As it stands, Obi Wan chooses to lie to Luke completely and basically set Luke up for a gigantic fall for no good reason. The only way this makes sense is if we can be kept in the dark about Vader's identity-- but now that's impossible. It's not even desirable or necessary-- make the change that redeems Obi Wan and makes him honorable again: have Ben tell Luke that Vader is his father.

You're right. It always bothered me that Obi-Wan and Yoda were suddenly painted to be these manipulative, scheming, selfish liars who didn't give a crap about Luke's feelings as long as he did what they wanted him to do. One could argue it adds depth to their characters by revealing flaws. One could even argue they were doing it out of absolute necessity, a last ditch effort to bring the galaxy back into balance. You could also say it teaches kids that adults sometimes let us down in the interest of our own good. In any case, after seeing it within the context of the whole saga, these traits are not really consistent with their characters. Especially Obi-Wan. He needs to be portrayed as a more honorable and forthright person. He doesn't have to give ALL the details, but he also shouldn't be lying through his teeth. That "certain point of view" crap sounds like the Dark Side to me, and could be used to rationalize a whole host of dishonorable behavior. It needs to be changed.

It means manipulating the scene where he gives Luke the lightsaber. Have Ben explain that Anakin was a great Jedi and a good man, but that he was seduced by the Dark Side as sometimes happens. Those were harsh times and choices had to be made, so Luke was hidden from his father and Uncle Owen doesn't want Luke to know the truth. But now Princess Leia and the Rebellion need Luke.

So are you saying to mix Obi-Wan's "log" speech in ROTJ with the "Ben's Hut" scene in ANH? I guess just go to close-ups of Luke (or quick, wordless flashbacks, shots of Anakin, etc.) when he's saying something from ROTJ. With a little creative editing, that could be a solution.

Luke's reaction would be to join Ben more quickly, but on his trip to say goodbye to Owen, he finds them dead. His reactions throughout the rest of the movie are already, with minor adjustments, appropriate to acommodate this change.And man, does it charge the rest of the movie up knowing that Luke already knows Vader's identity. It necessitates tweaks throughout, but not all that much.


And at what point would Vader find out? Do you think they could communicate telepathically at some point on the Death Star or in the Trench? Or would that be saved for ESB?

By the way, last night I edited together just the Obi-Wan/Vader duel with the "Obi-Wan vs Anakin" track from ROTS, and it's a VERY interesting change. Originally, the duel wasn't even scored. And it provides a whole new level of excitement during that scene. It begins while Han and Chewie are running from the Stormtroopers, "Open the blast door!" and continues on until the Falcon escapes from the docking bay. The best part is this little pause in the music right as Obi-Wan gives that little glance to Luke and Vader cuts him down, then this big choral rendition of the Force Theme as his robe crumples lifelessly onto the deck and luke shouts "No!". I encourage someone to make this a permanent change in an edit of ANH.

Then, in "Empire Strikes Back," the adjustment needs to be made setting up Luke for the big reveal: that Obi Wan is the one who basically killed Anakin. Obi Wan didn't mention this. He lied! Vader doesn't want to kill Luke-- Luke can join him and rule the Galaxy! Defeated, and without options, Luke chooses suicide -- only to be rescued.


Good idea. Funny enough, I think Dave Prowse's original dialogue on set said something to the effect of "No, OBI-WAN killed your father!" It could probably be cobbled together with the available Vader dialogue.

I realize this sounds drastic-- but it sure fixes things for me. Especially as regards fitting ANH into the Saga. In this draft, Obi Wan becomes as honorable as he seemed when the first movie was all there was.


In the end, it could probably be left either way and still be good. Intriguing ideas though. I'd like to see someone try it.

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By the way, last night I edited together just the Obi-Wan/Vader duel with the "Obi-Wan vs Anakin" track from ROTS, and it's a VERY interesting change. Originally, the duel wasn't even scored. And it provides a whole new level of excitement during that scene. It begins while Han and Chewie are running from the Stormtroopers, "Open the blast door!" and continues on until the Falcon escapes from the docking bay. The best part is this little pause in the music right as Obi-Wan gives that little glance to Luke and Vader cuts him down, then this big choral rendition of the Force Theme as his robe crumples lifelessly onto the deck and luke shouts "No!". I encourage someone to make this a permanent change in an edit of ANH.


Now this is something I'd like to see. Is there any chance for a sneak peak?
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Sluggo, I knew someone was going to ask that...

I'd love to make it available, but first I've got to figure out how to export this stuff from Womble. Every time I do, the audio gets staggered from the position it's supposed to be in, and then there's the whole issue of exporting it to a type of file everyone can watch....

Raaarrgghh!!!

I need a technical genius at my house.

In short, I'll let you know.

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I'm new to this thread, so please excuse my ignorance of the early stages - I will try to catch up at some point. I just read the last three pages or so. Also, apologies to Trooperman as these comments are not related to SotDS.

MTHaslett - somebody has to get you onto some editing software! Your analysis and reconstruction of TPM is the best I've read, bar none. All your ideas are streamlined and coherent. The trouble is, you'll never be satisfied with an edit which uses some of your ideas and leaves out others. So please, do your own edit.
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Hi, everyone.

I realize that sometimes, a compromise is not good enough. There’s only so much you can do with so many varied opinions of what Episode I (and the saga as a whole) should be like. What constitutes the best film possible? I’m also realizing that MTHaslett is becoming a genius on the editing front. Most of his suggestions are pure brilliance. And finally, there will be a Trooperman edit of Episodes II and III, but Ep. One I’m not so sure on.

I completely agree with everyone who’s saying that you need to get into editing, MTH- seriously. It might even get to the point where YOU do an Episode I edit, and I’m the one giving you the ideas that you can take or leave. Because as someone mentioned, I could very well be burnt out after Episodes II and III. I’m really pushing to get those two films done because I play Anakin and without Episode III, Episode II will be completely removed from the saga, continuity-wise. I’m only one guy, and without all of your invaluable help, I would be nowhere near where I am right now in terms of editing. I would certainly not be offended or insulted one bit if anyone decides to edit Episode I or the OT (or II and III, for that matter); I’ll just be thrilled that I was the man that got the ball rolling. I certainly don't want to be your "boss"; you all have had way too much to do with this project for that.

As I’m trying to find out what you as an audience want, I’m realizing some different things; namely, I never liked the idea of watching the films only 1-6. There are just so many technological and continuity differences and I just don’t like it. This is just my opinion, but the reason I began my projects was to 1. ADR Anakin, 2. Age the films and make them more like the OT, 3. Make them as good and as dramatically effective as possible, and 4. To prove that a trilogy of prequels could have been made to fit with the OOT without any changes to the latter whatsoever. I know many you guys would love it, but I just can’t bring myself to edit Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back. I just can’t; they were classic films, I’m very much attached to them, and I just would not feel right changing them as if they were inherently flawed. I can do this without any guilt to the prequels because I thought so poorly of the original cuts. Now, Return of the Jedi, I MIGHT be persuaded to do an edit of; however, it would in no way replace the original cut. It’d just be a very fun attempt to try and make it better, although I’m kind of attached to this film as well.

So to make a long story longer, I LOVE the fact that you guys are seeing the possibilities in making this saga work as a whole with the advent of Shroud of the Dark Side. However, the ideas for editing the OT don’t really appeal to me as much. I just don’t get fired up thinking about it as I do about the prequels (and about Ep. II). Maybe that’s the difference; I feel very passionately about turning the awful “Attack of the Clones” into something that will take the breath out of the audience; a classic that’ll stand the test of time. I’m driven to create a stunning final product. And in all honesty, all you’ve seen are a few screenshots, a couple video clips, and you’ve talked to me through this forum. You have no reason YET to think that I would do a better job than anyone else at this editing. You have no reason to think that someone else couldn’t do every bit as well as I could using my plans and notes for the movie.

But it’s true that I am doing these things SLOWLY. It’s true that a couple years is definitely a LONG time to wait. I would be absolutely thrilled if someone wanted to do an edit of the magnitude of the one I’m doing now; it’s just never been done before and I felt that I could do it. And as I said, if MTHaslett or anyone else creates an Episode I edit that holds up to my expectations (and is compatible with my II and III), it’s quite possible I’ll just forego Episode I (and especially the OT) entirely. Or just recut Episode I a bit for my own personal use based on his cut, if he doesn’t mind. But with projects of this magnitude done by one busy guy…it’s going to be a while, and I understand your frustration. That’s why I completely support any other people doing edits that want to, especially ones specifically made to fit with my films. But just think how much quicker and efficient it would be if I was working on Ep. III and someone was cutting Ep. I simultaneously. I love the idea, because when it comes down to it- I’m doing this project for myself in the end. Because I wanted something better than the garbage we got from Lucas (again, others may not feel this way), and nobody has made a move to do it in the style I envisioned. Imagine if all of these wonderful ideas to revamp Episode II never had an opportunity to be created! All these intelligent paragraphs of changes, discussion, etc.- I think just this is a wonderful thing, getting the fans in on a film that is for them as well as me in the long run. And what a great thing it’s been for me, critical to the success of this movie! But if people start doing other radical cuts of the Star Wars movies because they were inspired or excited by what I’ve done, then that’s the greatest compliment I could receive and I will be every bit as excited about their edit as everyone else is about mine.

I’ll respond to your other comments later when I have more time; I just wanted to say this now because there has been so much excited posting lately regarding changes to Ep. I and the OT. If it really kicks off, perhaps another thread would be in order? I don’t care one way or the other; I just wanted you to know how I felt about the whole situation. I hope you understand or can at least put yourself in my shoes for a bit.

Thanks, guys

Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side

Emperor Jar-Jar
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition

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Trooperman,

I totally understand -- I am inspired by your take on AOTC and especially the idea of "aging" it to match the OT. I like everything you're doing and appreciate why it takes so long.

I could only hope you might see the shaping of the Saga as I do -- but I'm not bothered or even surprised that you don't -- it is radical to want to change the best loved of the films.

"Shroud of the Darkside" will patch the biggest hole in the Saga. I can easily imagine enjoying RotS "as is" much more after seeing your edit-- even with the voice problems. I've always loved "Mad Max" and "Road Warrior" even with the horrible dub job in the former. Of course your eventual Episode III will make it all better. As InfoDroid said, the OT can be justified as it is.

If I can get an editing set-up, I would LOVE to tackle my ideas for the other Episodes-- fielding your suggestions, it'll be great. It is the sum of everyone's thoughts here that makes me so excited about SOTD. I'll look into getting the set-up InfoDroid recommends.

You may not want to be the "boss" around here, but I think you do a great job as the mediator of this thread. As the man behind SOTD, I figure you're the defacto boss here.

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And in all honesty, all you’ve seen are a few screenshots, a couple video clips, and you’ve talked to me through this forum. You have no reason YET to think that I would do a better job than anyone else at this editing. You have no reason to think that someone else couldn’t do every bit as well as I could using my plans and notes for the movie.

You know, you're right. We don't need you. Who do you think you are coming in here with your ideas and bossing us around! We don't need you at all!

In all seriousness, I'm glad you made that post, TM. Things were getting a bit out of control in here. Everyone is coming up with some great stuff, but we can't just expect you to actually do all the work. It must be pretty intimidating for you to come in here every few days or so to find pages and pages of new ideas for your approval or whatever. I completely understand where you're coming from when you say II and III might burn you out; you're doing a heck of a lot of work which by no means you're obligated to do. You could stop right now just to spite us all; we'd be in quite a predicament if that happened now wouldn't we? Your suggestion of passing the baton for I is very reasonable. Simultaneous "production" on I and III would be a great way to speed up the process so we can have the complete prequel trilogy before the end of the decade. Hopefully one of us can rise up and take the reins for I and possibly the OT (though our views on how the originals should be edited would most likely constitute many variations). If someone were to take us under their editing wing so to speak and lay out for us an Idiot's Guide to Editing, I'm sure MTH and myself would be up to the task. Creativity is not the problem, it's the time and the resources. If we could learn the secrets of economically reasonable and technically efficient editing, I'm sure I can speak for both of us when I say we'd love to come onboard as more than creative consultants.

For now though let's focus on to task at hand, Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side, and how it will fit in to both our new and improved prequel trilogy as well as the saga as a whole. Here's to you, Trooperman; we all appreciate your efforts and will support whatever decision you make in regards to the project.