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Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side (the TM edit) (Released) — Page 11
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Originally posted by: Trooperman
Also, I like the general idea of what you're doing with the lake and fireside scenes, but won't the transition between the two be a bit odd? They are outside in one set of clothes and...their conversation continues inside with different attire?
Which is a very good point. It means that on second thought, I won't use a hard cut- I'll use either a fade or a clock-wipe to indicate the passage of time.
Also, I like the general idea of what you're doing with the lake and fireside scenes, but won't the transition between the two be a bit odd? They are outside in one set of clothes and...their conversation continues inside with different attire?
Which is a very good point. It means that on second thought, I won't use a hard cut- I'll use either a fade or a clock-wipe to indicate the passage of time.
I think this link between the balcony and the fireside scene is a great idea. The one definitely leads to the other -- particularly the look from Padme which says she really likes Anakin. I agree with the poster above that the transition you have here will be jarring. Changing from a hard cut to a wipe will kind of hide the problem, but I think there can be a better fix. The problem I see is that once Anakin says he loves Padme she HAS to respond. We want to know what she has to say to that.
What about this: have the Anakin dialogue play right where you suggest, over the balcony scene where Padme gives him that longing look -- then dissolve to the fireside scene right where you suggest except that we see a final moment of Anakin speaking. It's a technique of letting the dialogue from the next scene play over the tail of the preceding scene -- to bring out the subtext. We realize they're thinking things on the balcony that they talk about at the fireside. It's a great technique used all the time and it allows you to have your cake and eat it too -- the dialogue is where you want it, while the audience gets to hear the whole conversation.
If we just wipe to the next scene, I'd feel instinctively that I missed a bunch of great stuff. What did she say on the balcony? What happened between then and now? But linking the scenes with overlapping dialogue will make all the changes of costume and location speak for themselves. They are a counterpoint to the dialogue -- her lips say "no no no," but her actions say "yes yes yes."
By the way, I like the idea of tricking up the German language Jar Jar. I love how thoroughly you're going through this. Keep up the good work.
To clarify: the scenes as I'm suggesting them would play out something like this:
EXT. BALCONY - NIGHT
Padme jabbers away as Anakin listens, in love and gathering the courage to say so. He leans to her. She turns to him.
ANAKIN (V.O.) Padme. I love you. I've loved you since I first saw you all those years ago. I was afraid to tell you before...
She looks longingly at him. They clearly have so much to say...
INT. FIREPLACE ROOM - NIGHT
Anakin sits, talking to Padme, finishing the dialogue we've been hearing.
ANAKIN ...but it's true.
Padme leans back for a moment of indicision, then--
PADME I can't. We can't. Etc.
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Why cut out the longing look?
To decide when or how the scene "ends" means deciding what the scene's about in the first place.
Padme talks a lot about what she used to do here growing up and Anakin listens to her-- but what's really happening? The scene is not about that, it's about what they're feeling and not saying.
She's talking about stuff to avoid awkward silence -- but she's sharing details of her past because she likes him and that's what people do when they like each other. Anakin listens, but his brooding manner cannot hide his feelings-- in fact it speaks as loudly as if he were using the words: "I'm really hot for you."
So when she finishes talking and turns to him the scene is about to turn-- the truth of the moment will become clear to the characters: love is in the air.
Is Anakin going to talk?
Will they kiss?
Neither of these are necessary for the scene to get to it's point. One shared look between these two will say everything that needs to be said. They have a mutual thing going.
But, as this is not an easy match, they are not likely to leap into action or even into talking about their feelings the moment they realize they might both like each other.
But once we know they are aware of their feelings, the next dramatic beat we care about is the point when the DO talk. So it's natural to cut from that moment on the balcony to the fireside -- PROVIDED the scene on the balcony goes far enough to demonstrate they are finally conscious of their feelings.
If, on the other hand, the balcony scene ends with Padme declaring she "can't give into this" then the fireside scene will become awkward -- why the costume change? Why the intimate setting? Why are they still talking about this? What happened in-between? It raises more questions than it settles.
If the balcony scene can end with the characters knowing they have something to talk about on the subject of love which they have not opened yet, then the fireside scene will play as it was always intended to, but never could. The costume and setting are Padme's attempt to go along with her feelings, but at the last moment she turns away because she knows logically that it's wrong.
None of these issues can be settled ahead of time if the fireside scene is to work.
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You do have some really good points. I forgot what I was trying to get across this morning(I was tired and, couldn't get to sleep). So, I'm going to say that I realize that the longing look is important to the scene and, I'm not really sure how the romance will get figured out in this edit. Thanks for pointing out what it meant(otherwise when I start my edit I might of cut it out).
Trooperman:
I forgot, which scenes between Anakin and, Padme romance scenes are staying in?
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MTHaslett- I love your solution and I’ll use it. I agreed with everything you just said. Thanks for clarifying and including that portion of revised script; I’d have had trouble following it otherwise. I totally agree that when edited in this fashion, one scene leads directly to the other. You made my job easy for this scene in the commentary; I'll just flip to this forum page and read your notes into the microphone!
It's a technique of letting the dialogue from the next scene play over the tail of the preceding scene -- to bring out the subtext.
And I love it.
Something interesting about RotS is that it freed me up a bit in how I’m editing this. Before, I felt almost confined to the cut-and-dry plot-driven style of the other movies. But with RotS- he broke all the rules and standards he had created! So I feel comfortable doing some things that I wouldn’t have considered before.
I hate to admit it (and I know I shouldn’t), but I’m fiddling with Episode III already. I did a test to change
Yoda’s: A prophesy that misread, could have been. That’s the ultimate in the awkward Yoda dialogue that’s so prevalent in the PT. I’ve changed it to: A prophesy that could have been misread, and it works much better. I also changed: I hope right, you are into: I hope you are right.
However, I’ll continue to work on Ep. II until its completion.
Twister:I was wondering what software do you recommend for audio and, video?
Jeten: What are you editing audio on?
If you have the money, go with Vegas or Adobe. Nero's kind of crummy for editing, Roxio's OK...I'm not particularly an expert on this particular topic.
But audio? Get:
1. Cakewalk Pyro
2. SoundForge
3. Sonar
They are such professional tools and make something as difficult as redubbing a SW movie easier than ever would have been possible.
I forgot, which scenes between Anakin and, Padme romance scenes are staying in?
-Anakin/Padme talk on the way out of ship.
-Small part of bedroom scene, runs immediately into...
-Dinner scene. Re-edited a bit to remove corny dialogue.
- Grassy picnic scene has been completely reworked. Starts with short montage of mountains while full-blown love theme plays (a la beginning of "Sound of Music". Fade to them rolling around on grass. Then, hard cut to heavily edited picnic scene. Boyfriend chat is removed. Scene ends with Anakin saying, "Well...if it works..." Clockwipe so as to reveal his smile at the last minute, similar to many of the Palpatine scenes.
-Heavily, radically edited version of the "first kiss" scene. First of all, it's now a moonlit scene; not daytime. Anakin confesses his love for Padme. Padme wants him, but her reaction is shown in...
-Clip of fireplace scene. Anakin's "Shakespeare" speech is cut out.
Are you going to put Dolby Digital 5.1 in???
And I love it.
Something interesting about RotS is that it freed me up a bit in how I’m editing this. Before, I felt almost confined to the cut-and-dry plot-driven style of the other movies. But with RotS- he broke all the rules and standards he had created! So I feel comfortable doing some things that I wouldn’t have considered before.
I hate to admit it (and I know I shouldn’t), but I’m fiddling with Episode III already. I did a test to change
Yoda’s: A prophesy that misread, could have been. That’s the ultimate in the awkward Yoda dialogue that’s so prevalent in the PT. I’ve changed it to: A prophesy that could have been misread, and it works much better. I also changed: I hope right, you are into: I hope you are right.
However, I’ll continue to work on Ep. II until its completion.
Twister:I was wondering what software do you recommend for audio and, video?
Jeten: What are you editing audio on?
If you have the money, go with Vegas or Adobe. Nero's kind of crummy for editing, Roxio's OK...I'm not particularly an expert on this particular topic.
But audio? Get:
1. Cakewalk Pyro
2. SoundForge
3. Sonar
They are such professional tools and make something as difficult as redubbing a SW movie easier than ever would have been possible.
I forgot, which scenes between Anakin and, Padme romance scenes are staying in?
-Anakin/Padme talk on the way out of ship.
-Small part of bedroom scene, runs immediately into...
-Dinner scene. Re-edited a bit to remove corny dialogue.
- Grassy picnic scene has been completely reworked. Starts with short montage of mountains while full-blown love theme plays (a la beginning of "Sound of Music". Fade to them rolling around on grass. Then, hard cut to heavily edited picnic scene. Boyfriend chat is removed. Scene ends with Anakin saying, "Well...if it works..." Clockwipe so as to reveal his smile at the last minute, similar to many of the Palpatine scenes.
-Heavily, radically edited version of the "first kiss" scene. First of all, it's now a moonlit scene; not daytime. Anakin confesses his love for Padme. Padme wants him, but her reaction is shown in...
-Clip of fireplace scene. Anakin's "Shakespeare" speech is cut out.
Are you going to put Dolby Digital 5.1 in???
Unfortunately not. Why? The very nature of the dubbing work I'm doing requires many times that I only use the rear channels, or only use the front channels: very rarely could I use the whole 5.1 package on the DVD. And with all the stereo-only sources I'm using (and my lack of experience with surround sound), I just won't be able to do it.
However, when dubbing, I will preserve all of the original recordings of myself, ChainsawAsh, etc. so that in the far future, if someone with a lot of free time wants to create a 5.1 mix for this, they'll be able to. I can mail them the raw recordings.
More likely than not, however, this stereo could turn out to be Pro-Logic encoded because I'm using a filtered version of the VHS pan-scan audio for the base. This could result in 4 channels if you have the decoder.
But I don't mind the absence of surround too much. I've always watched the OT in stereo and loved it. I know old director Robert Wise (director of Star Trek I) hated 5.1 but liked stereo. So just stereo will probably not be too bad considering the goal of the project, which is to improve it and to age it.
Thanks, guys! I really wish I could say more. The weekend's coming!
Trooperman
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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Sounds great! The way you have linked the balcony scene and the fireside scene in my mind is now completely inescapable. It's the kind of creative switch that will make this new cut far better than people have a right to expect.
Cutting the bedroom scene, dinner and kitchen scenes so they work better sounds great. I also love the "Sound of Music" reference that you're adding. But two things there make me nervous:
1. Them "rolling around" is too childish and too intimate for these two awkward statesmen. She is a queen and a senator. He is a Jedi. Sure, they're kids, but they aren't 5 year olds. When we see two 19 year old kids rolling around in the grass it means they're either brother and sister or lovers. It doesn't mesh with this new, smarter Anakin you're building here. If this WERE a democracy, I'd vote agin it.
2. Anakin talking about his dream of having a monarch who makes the senate do the right thing makes him look dumb again. I know he's naive about the Supreme Chancellor, but I don't think he is too dumb to understand the fundamental concepts of democracy. Furthermore, saying this to Padme is as sure-fire a way to drive her off as if he told her he just killed a bunch of women and children. She has devoted her life to democracy and been the Queen for cryin' out loud. Any man with Anakin's "dream" will never get in her pants. She probably wouldn't talk to him again for days after that.
I think the visual of them in the grass is awesome and should be played totally for scenery -- with the love theme playing over them. Why sully it with misguided political talk?
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I missed your post. I'm glad you see my point-- or rather I'm glad you don't have an even BETTER reason to cut the look. I'm optimistic about the potential romance contained in the stuff Lucas shot and I would LOVE to have the time and resources to do my own cut. Lucky you. If I was doing my own, I wouldn't have to lobby so hard to get my wish-list into Trooperman's hands. I just hope you editing types don't get tired of my notes. ;-)
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Originally posted by: MTHaslett
Twister--
I missed your post. I'm glad you see my point-- or rather I'm glad you don't have an even BETTER reason to cut the look. I'm optimistic about the potential romance contained in the stuff Lucas shot and I would LOVE to have the time and resources to do my own cut. Lucky you. If I was doing my own, I wouldn't have to lobby so hard to get my wish-list into Trooperman's hands. I just hope you editing types don't get tired of my notes. ;-)
Twister--
I missed your post. I'm glad you see my point-- or rather I'm glad you don't have an even BETTER reason to cut the look. I'm optimistic about the potential romance contained in the stuff Lucas shot and I would LOVE to have the time and resources to do my own cut. Lucky you. If I was doing my own, I wouldn't have to lobby so hard to get my wish-list into Trooperman's hands. I just hope you editing types don't get tired of my notes. ;-)
Well, you do have some good points. Also, it's a shame that you don't have resources to do your own cut. Based on your notes it would be really good. I won't be able to start my own edit until next year though. Since, right now a lot of stuff is going on in my life and, there's no way that I could start this year. I'm just getting information right now so, that later on I know what software to look for. Also, your notes have given me some ideas on what to do on my own edit.
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What should I use to record the dialogue in? I don't really have many options to work with now, what are you using? (Trust me, regardless of what it is I'll be able to find it somewhere.)
I would use SoundForge, if you have it. Although you can record this sample however you like.
Ha ha! You know, it's a lot of fun, but it's also a huge amount of responsibility- trying to satisfy everyone to some extent (particularly you, because you have a lot of great detailed ideas but lack resources to do your own). I feel like I'm trying to improve the MagnoliaFan edit, restore the lost RebelScumb cut, reproduce the vision of MTHaslett, Commander Courage, and many many others, and editing it according to how I think it should be taking precedent over all this. It's a tall and complex order!
Based on your notes it would be really good.
I would use SoundForge, if you have it. Although you can record this sample however you like.
Lucky you. If I was doing my own, I wouldn't have to lobby so hard to get my wish-list into Trooperman's hands.
Ha ha! You know, it's a lot of fun, but it's also a huge amount of responsibility- trying to satisfy everyone to some extent (particularly you, because you have a lot of great detailed ideas but lack resources to do your own). I feel like I'm trying to improve the MagnoliaFan edit, restore the lost RebelScumb cut, reproduce the vision of MTHaslett, Commander Courage, and many many others, and editing it according to how I think it should be taking precedent over all this. It's a tall and complex order!
Based on your notes it would be really good.
Mine will be really good because it will utilize most if not all of his notes.
To my knowledge, these other fan edits have been done mostly in isolation. Occasionally someone will do an opening crawl for someone else, or something of that sort, but to my knowledge, MagnoliaFan or anyone else did not discuss the concepts with others before starting. I decided to go about it differently, and since nobody I know personally can really help me on this, I'll discuss it with you, from the original concept to the completion of the project. Call me crazy for chatting on an online forum instead of actually working on the thing every minute, but I believe that this really pays off. More than ever before, it's like a group meeting or writing session. That's what I love most about working on this; my edit will now be of such a high caliber because of all your input and advice.
Thanks, everyone.
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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Trooperman,
Would you ever, in the distant future, ever have an interest in making 2010 into a more Kubrick-like sequel?
There are so many obvous ways to improve that pic-- I was 14 years old when I saw it and started doing a "fan-edit" of it in my head.
Just out of curiousity...
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If you're interested in sharing your thoughts I believe there is a thread for this...somewhere, along the lines of "Films That Could Use A Fan Edit." Can someone help me out here?
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Since I'm busy with school, I've only been reading the thread and not participating too much. However, here is something that I think you'll enjoy...
Below is the 9th incarnation of my DVD cover for SOTDS. Remember, this is not the final version. Also, by "incarnation" I mean significant layout and spellchecks. My idea for this version of the cover has always been; similar to the offical DVD covers, but slightly different. I'm welcome to criticism, also know that I have another version ready to be worked on that will satisfy the ink-conscious and also take on a different (and simpler) layout.
Anyway, enough blabbering, here it is...
To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com
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-The "Trooperman's" on the front is certainly creative, but I think the standard "Star Wars" is the best way to go with that.
-What' with the Trademark symbol on the spine? Or is that TM for Trooperman? Either way I'd remove it.
-And if there's a way to shorten Anakin's saber on the back, perhaps tilting it a bit more to the left, because that thing is WAY too long.
Sorry if I sound like a delegator; that's some excellent work. I only wish I had Photoshop skills as good.
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Much the same with the "TM" on the spine. I started this cover's ".psd" file as a template to "recreate" the episode I & II DVDs' layout because I was doing a mock Episode III cover. I don't know about the US DVDs but we had the "TM" after the titles on the spines for I, II, & IV-VI. However, merely an oversight and will be removed when I reupload the image.
For the lightsaber, well I took the teaser image for Episode II and recolored it slightly to fit the "orangey" tone of the poster. I will have a go at shortening it somehow, because I myself thought it too be ridiculously long when I first saw the image. Maybe Anakin's trying to compensate for something
lol. I don't know how well I'll be able to do it, so we'll see how it goes, hey?Thanks for the praise.
To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com
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So I guess history is just repeating when I say to you:
"That's a bad idea, don't do it".
Seriously, there are bad prequels, and worse prequels. The latter are the ones that have been edited by fans.
LUKE: Dad, where are your eyebrows?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO_S6UgkQk0
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I've started on the lightsaber-fix, might take a while (sorta difficult and I have schoolwork to take care of), keep posting constructive criticism and I'll release an updated pic sometime in the near future.
To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com
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VERY VERY VERY impressive! That's a wonderful cover, Klokwerk. I'm honored that you have put so much time into creating such a professional looking cover for my edit.
My only suggestion was the same as Commander Courage's (the long saber). Also, the number of minutes may need to be updated when I finalize the overall length. But the artwork and layout is wonderful, the logo is great, I love how you did the special feature section and how you put my opening crawl text at the bottom. If I didn't know better, I'd say it looks like a cover from a store-bought DVD (minus the annoying bar code).
Thank you so much, Klokwerk. And take your time on fixing the saber- no rush at all.
And thanks Obi-wonton, BTW.
The edit is still progressing. If anyone knows of anywhere you can get a bit of free filespace, I could post an early test of a movie clip with final stereo with new Anakin voice mixed in and synchronized, so that people could see.
Thanks!
Episode II: Shroud of the Dark Side
“Back when we made Star Wars, we just couldn’t make Palpatine as evil as we intended. Now, thanks to the miracles of technology, it is finally possible. Finally, I’ve created the movies that I originally imagined.” -George Lucas on the 2007 Extra Extra Special HD-DVD Edition
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Google search
Geocities
I'm still interested in how/what you used for changing the balcony scene to moonlit. Plus, good luck getting everything together
.klokwerk: That is a great cover. I can only think of the lightsaber thing to fix.
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Originally posted by: Zebonka
Probably George Lucas had people say to him, before he made these movies: "That's a bad idea, don't do it".
So I guess history is just repeating when I say to you:
"That's a bad idea, don't do it".
Seriously, there are bad prequels, and worse prequels. The latter are the ones that have been edited by fans.
Probably George Lucas had people say to him, before he made these movies: "That's a bad idea, don't do it".
So I guess history is just repeating when I say to you:
"That's a bad idea, don't do it".
Seriously, there are bad prequels, and worse prequels. The latter are the ones that have been edited by fans.
all power to those who want to try, but he's right and thats my whole stance on the subject.
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To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com
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