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Episode 3 - Editing Back in Progress (* unfinished project *) — Page 9

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Hey, GM. Thanks for the feedback. Your analysis of Episode 3 in light of the other two prequel movies is impressive.

What I am attempting to do with the duel is to restore subtlety and maturity to the movie experience. I may not be able to do this if it cuts out vital story elements, but I think the audience can be uneasy with Anakin's choices/actions even if he doesn't seem to be so uneasy.

He hasn't been punished for slaughtering an entire tribe of Sand People, so, I would think it would be conceivable that, in light of his friendship with Obi-wan and his love for Padme, he could slip into a moment in battle like this and still think himself a generally good guy. If the audience doesn't already see Anakin as fallen due to the Episode 2 slaughter, then, at least this moment's indiscretion charts another (major) point in Anakin's fall to the Dark Side.

I'm hoping that removing the Chancellor's overt influence of Anakin makes the Chancellor more sinister in the long run and relieves the scene of a grown warrior being spoken to like a child (for the most part).

Also, I think it starts things rolling in the direction of Palpatine's revelation of himself to Anakin as a Sith Lord, and, perhaps, it makes the seduction more subtle, as this seduction should be. Encouraging someone to act in a particular way is one thing, but to suddenly growl "Do it!" in a unusual voice stretches believability as far as seduction is concerned.

Ultimately, I hope to edit something that will be more of a worthy predecessor to the cinematic maturity of Episode 4. So, the litmus test here is: does my maipulation of the story make the movie more or less cinematic?
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I might try my hand at editing this... just to give you some ideas that is... I like and see where you are going with this although I may not entirely agree... heh

thanks for the responce


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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Thanks for the critique; I'd definitely be interested in seeing what you come up with for the duel. Sounds like you've been cooking up some cool stuff with the departure from Mustafar and Yoda's vision. I might need to steal some of that.
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Well, as promised, here is my Dooku Edit.

What I decided to go for were subtle changes, as, since I spoke earlier about how the scene wasn't "that bad," I didn't feel the need for too many.

And as God says to Bender in Futurama: "When you do things right, people won't be sure You've done anything at all." lol

Anyways, one idea I had was to make it appear that Anakin got carried away... that perhaps Dooku's line about "You have hate, you have anger. But you don't use them" might have sparked him to actually use them and that killing Dooku was a slip up... he got too into the battle and just went with it.

You can download the video here:

My Dooku Edit

There are two glitches I still need to fix, but it gives you a general idea of what I saw.

I decided to start this from earlier than anyone else's edits because I wanted to bring something to light that was recently told to me ...

The very end of the Beginning battle sequence, the music that is layered over the landing is actually NOT meant to be there. We found most of the cue, but a lot of it is still missing. In the film, they use a bit of tracked music as to end the cue early, but also some of the unreleased bit... there is still a good portion of unreleased/unused/unheard music that we havn't found...

Anyways, I start my video right where the music we did find begins... it goes into the entrance of Grevious, and then into the Elevator Scene.... it is seriously like 5 minutes of straight music. Then you get to dooku and it's a battle that almost has NO music... (we think there might have been more but none has been released).

Anyways, I include this all in the edit. The only omission before the dooku scene I did was the short scene of the two battle droids walking into the hangar saying "Those are Jedi Fighters Alright" so that there wasn't a gap between the music from "General Grevious'" cue and "The Elevator Scene."

Also worthy of note: I use an alternate take of the cue "The Elevator Scene" which has extra percussion (namely snare). The album version doesn't have this and I felt it might heighten the scene a bit using this instead.


The edits I made in the video itself are as follows:

01) I cut away from the shot of them exiting the elevator early and skip to the next shot. You see in the distance Palpatine swivel in his chair.

02) I cut to a close up of Palpatine in his chair

03) I cut back to Obi-Wan and Anakin turning to walk down the stairs. The next few moments are the same up until "Count Dooku" and the shot showing his arrival.

04) I remove the lines " This time we'll do it together," and "I was going to say that." I just cut to Anakin walking behind Obi-Wan to get into position.

05) I remove the lines about him being a sith lord and simply cut to Obi-Wan disrobing

06) After Obi-Wan's like about how Dooku won't get away this time, I cut to a slightly slowed down shot of Dooku extending his lightsaber.

07) I cut to Dooku saying his line "I've been looking forward to this."

08) Cut to Obi-Wan and Anakin extending their lightsabers.\

09) Cut to overhead shot of the duel beginning

10) Cut to Anakin saying "My powers have doubled" blah

11) I cut Palpatine's reaction shots and cut to Obi-Wan being force pushed away. (trimming both the push and the landing shots becuase they are too long)

12) Cut to Anakin swiping at Dooku

13) I remove a few moments of DOoku running up the stairs and jump to the next angle from above of them battling up the stairs

14) I trim some of the shot of Obi-Wan getting up

15) cut to the battle droids being destroyed

16) cut to obi-wan about to fight dooku

17) I remove a little bit of Anakin sitting around looking at the Obi-Wan and then to Dooku.. and trim it so that it flows faster

18) Cut quickly to Anakin jumping at Dooku

19) Cut to the closeup of Anakin and Dooku with dooku's line about hate and anger a little bit early just to push it that much further

20) Cut to Obi- wan attacking dooku. Trimmed the shot mostly. there were a few extra un-neccesary seconds.

21) I speed up the shot of Anakin cutting off Dooku's hands.

22) Cut to Anakin with Dooku's blade

23) cut to a slightly sped up shot of Anakin placing the blades at Dooku's neck

24) cut to Anakin slicing

25) Cut to Palpatine saying "Good, Anakin! Good!"

26) Cut back to medium shot of Anakin putting the sabers away...

27) As anakin explains he shouldn't have killed dooku, I cut to Palpatine getting out of the chair with Palpatine saying "It is only natural," as if to combat what anakin had to say about the Jedi way.

28) Cut to a short shot of Anakin reacting.

29) Cut to Palpatines line "Remmeber what you told me about your mother? And the Sand people?"

30) Cut to a shot of Anakin looking away with Palpatines line "You wanted Revenge" layered over it... as to mask that horrid tuskan raider sfx.

31) cut a little early to Palpatine saying they must leave.

And that's all the edits I did... just to give you all some ideas.


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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I gotta say that your edit is a definite improvement over the original Dooku duel! I really like what you did with the removal of Anakin's line "I was about to say that" and with Dooku's light saber ignition and subsequent line "I've been waiting for this". Resequencing this shot was an awesome idea!
18) Cut quickly to Anakin jumping at Dooku
This worked flawlessly! The pacing is definitely improved.
19) Cut to the closeup of Anakin and Dooku with dooku's line about hate and anger a little bit early just to push it that much further
I didn't even notice the edit was there, but, BOOM!, Dooku's words were sounding more believable than I've heard them before!

I also really liked how you were able to extend Anakin holding the blades ignited longer by cutting in the shot and line of Palpatine. That was beautiful, though it might seem like a flub in the wider shot where Palpatine's mouth isn't moving. Small price to pay for the improvement, I say.

Your treatment of Palpatine's justification to Anakin is a vast improvement focusing on the revenge aspect and not over-explaining why when we all know what Dooku did to Anakin in Episode II.

I feel that a handful of things didn't work quite as well:
17) I remove a little bit of Anakin sitting around looking at the Obi-Wan and then to Dooku..
For someone seeing the scene for the first time, I think they would probably not know what they had just seen and how it really relates to the surrounding shots, because it goes by so quickly.
21) I speed up the shot of Anakin cutting off Dooku's hands. 22) Cut to Anakin with Dooku's blade 23) cut to a slightly sped up shot of Anakin placing the blades at Dooku's neck

The sequence plays too quickly now. It would definitely work if it had been shot as one fluid set of motions, but it's apparent that Anakin brings the blades to Dooku's neck in a thoughtful way instead of as a flowing finishing move. Maybe you could keep the sped up shots but allow for more of a pause as Anakin considers the man kneeling in front of him, although this does make it a colder, more calculated decision than one made in the heat of a thoughtless moment.
27) As anakin explains he shouldn't have killed dooku, I cut to Palpatine getting out of the chair with Palpatine saying "It is only natural," as if to combat what anakin had to say about the Jedi way.

Palpatine's line follows too closely on Anakin's; it feels rushed in comparison to Palpatine's tone.
28) Cut to a short shot of Anakin reacting.

This didn't feel quite right to me. Maybe just a little more time for the shot would help, or a different part of the shot where Anakin isn't moving as much. Also, Anakin's eyeline doesn't match from this shot to the next; that may be part of it.

Overall, I am still trying for an edit that loses some of the immature dialogue and characterization that Lucas has given us to work with. You've definitely given me some edit choices to consider. Thanks, GM!

P.S. Just watched most of the duel again, and I love the placement of "You wanted revenge"; it fits so perfectly with that shot!
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Gald you liked it hehe..

You mention that you didn't like Palpatine's quick response to Anakin. I did this purposely. I wanted it to seem like he was almost Interrupting Anakin... as if to say "Stop thinking that. Think this now."

Remember my whole explanation? If I can't show that Palpatine is seducing him into doing evil deeds... I can still show that he is impregnating his mind with this sort of dark, twisted reasoning.

You mention the shot of anakin reacting. I originally didn't have it there. I cut to the next shot of Palpatine talking, but it felt weird to change angles and almost change positions of the actors as well... so I inserted that.

As for the death of Dooku, I completely agree. Had it been one flowing shot it would have worked so much better. Anakin puts the blades to his neck too thoughtfully for me to really do too much. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to remedy this. I've been playing with it trying to get it to work but I'm not sure what I can do.

Anyone have any suggestions?

I've actually played around with the edits a bit so if you'd like, you can view this version now:

Dooku Version 3

I've only done minor edits. Fixing two glitches in the last video and tightening a bit of the editing.


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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Hey, GM. I do try to keep previous conversations in mind when I respond. It's not that I didn't understand that you wanted to show Palpatine's corruption of Anakin, but the line cut so tight against Anakin's, and in the non-rushed tone of Palpatine, doesn't sound like he's interrupting; it sounds like a bad edit.

Maybe you could tweak Palpatine's audio to make it sound more like he's interrupting.
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Oh I wasn't meaning it as anything against you... just was saying that was where I was going with it... Whats weird is I think it works fine...perfectly even.. I'll wait a few days, go back and watch it again and see...

heh I do thank you for your input


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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You know what I was thinking...

How about ending the battle like this video ends?

Video


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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Originally posted by: GoodMusician
Oh I wasn't meaning it as anything against you... just was saying that was where I was going with it... Whats weird is I think it works fine...perfectly even.. I'll wait a few days, go back and watch it again and see... No problem, GM. It just came off sounding condescending.

heh I do thank you for your input

You're welcome. And thanks for the new ending idea for Obi-wan and Anakin's duel! LOL!

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Darkhelmet,

I just had a chance to check out your Dooku Duel edit. For removing Dooku's silly flip/jump, I proclaim you KING OF THE DAY! (This entitles you to wear a paper hat all day and be an ass to everyone.)

Just curious: why did you remove Dooku's lines where he says "You have anger. You have hate. But you do not use them"?

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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Hey, Erik. Long time! Well, I was really just experimenting with the tone of the sequence, but GoodMusician has successfully demonstrated with his tightened duel edits that a darker tone can be achieved while leaving those lines intact. They always came off as "B" film dialogue the way they played in the movie, but GM showed me the light there.

Also (and I hope I can still wear the paper hat), I wasn' t the first to eliminate Dooku's flip, so I can't take the "King" title in good conscience; though I hated the flip someone I don't remember right now made the edit first. GM's edits also made me reconsider whether or not the flip might be able to stay. Check his v2 edit out to see if you don't agree.

I'll probably go with my original gut reaction to the horrible CG mess and still cut it, though.

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I personally hadn't thought about it... Imean yea, it's obviously CG...

In the directors commentary you actually hear...I think it's Rick McCallum say "And that's actually Christopher Lee," I suppose poking fun at it lol

I never thought much about it... removing it is an idea... looking back and your edit, DarkHelmit, I can now see what you mean by removing it... It does kinda take away a little bit though...

In a way, I kinda like that it's in simply because it shows that he's not this frail old man... that he can still do things... although it's a bit dramatic to do that much lol...

If only there were another way to have him get down the stairs... without cutting away for so long...

Good points... and I'm glad you liked my edit :-p


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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To put it simply, the jump is too flashy and not at all in keeping with Dooku's style. Dooku is a classy, serene kind of villain, not a Darth Maul type.

If I may beat a dead horse here, I think adding in a backgroud sound of footsteps (slow, methodical footsetps) while the Jedi have their banter with Palpatine is the way to go. It will obviously convey that Dooku walked down the steps, while adding to the tension of the scene.

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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We're all going to be overloaded on the Dooku duel, I know, but here's my version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCcZTrxi8ck

(Further discussion can take place in the Starkiller Ranch thread)
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CommanderCourage: Pretty nice to my untutored eye. In particular I liked how you didn't leave Anakin lying on the ground like a doofus while Dooku crashes a balcony down on Obi-Wan's head; that cut actually makes more sense. You can see the reason they threw in the original two cuts (audience is asking whether Obi-Wan's unconscious and why he isn't back in the fight) but it almost feels like your cut was the original way the thing was meant to be done and fixed later on...of course, you'd have the later continuity problem of Obi-Wan under the balcony a little later on, but judicious cutting might be a way around that...

The only problem I could see is that cut at 1:16-1:17 from Obi-Wan's thrust to Dooku's Force-push. It doesn't quite work because the eye is expecting Anakin to be in the frame from that angle (he's to Obi-Wan's right when Obi goes for the thrust, and doesn't really back out of frame.) I don't know if you could get away with some kind of silhouette rapidly moving back from middle of field to left of field, revealing the Force-push, but it's a bugger of a thing to fix...

GoodMusician: I won't go point-for-point and rehash what's already said above. This is a really, really nice piece of work. I say that because I don't want to seem like I'm doing nothing but criticising -- this cut does work a hell of a lot better than the original. So dealing with my nitpicky stuff...

(1) "Your swords please." Always annoyed me right from the word go, since they don't actually have big shiny bits of metal (well, not the parts that're meant to hit people, anyway.) And Dooku has referred to lightsabers by their correct names in the past -- on camera, during Ep 2. Think it might be possible to steal the word "saber" from that and sub it in for "sword"?

(2) Not sure if there's much that can be done about this, but it's the same issue as with CommanderCourage's edit -- the cut between Obi's thrust and Dooku's Force-push. And on fullscreen another problem emerges. In the shot before the cut Obi-Wan's still moving towards Dooku. In the shot after he's not; he's standing still. The eye notices it even if the mind hasn't got time to register it. Maybe Obi's stillness can be solved by the ' silhouette' of Anakin in the shot, I don't know...

(3) The shot right after Dooku's hands come off (IMHHHO) needs Dooku's reaction back in it, if only for a few frames as he starts to drop. There isn't quite enough time for Dooku to go from standing to kneeling for Anakin to do what he does in this edit, to my eye. If Dooku has a brief second or two's reaction, Anakin's got time to pick up and cross the sabers. But otherwise I really like the ' no thinking' way that Anakin ends the duel -- it's in keeping with Qui-Gon's old advice " Feel, don't think," and is much more evocative of an Anakin who got carried away in the heat of the moment.

(4) Pity about no lip movement when Palpatine's laughing. Rotoscope it, maybe, or 'jiggle' the head a little?

Again, other than those things, it works really well. I also noticed a certain 'quickness' to the way Palpatine says "It is only natural", but I think it might be coming from the mismatch in the "background hum" of the shots before and after that line, not necessarily because it's too quick a line...?

Just quickly on the leadup to it, though ... I think honestly there's enough room to eliminate the "Artoo does flamethrower" thing, even if it takes removing the entirety of the elevator-stop sequence. Or at least take out the part where Artoo's actually discovered, if possible?

"My teaching is like a raft used to cross a river. Only a fool would carry the raft around after he reached the other side!"
--Buddha
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CC: Nice rotoscope(?) on Dooku's jump. I like that so much more than the original flip.

Erikstormtrooper: Aside from CC's treatment, footsteps are probably the only real option. Any idea where some good ones can be found (or lifted from one of the movies)?

Saintheart: I don't like Dooku's use of "swords" either. Do you know where in Episode II Dooku uses the term "lightsaber"?
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GM: I just watched your v2 cut of the Dooku duel again, and I'd like to strike a couple of my criticisms from the record. I guess I wasn't removed enough from an editing perspective to see it purely from an audience perspective.

1)The speed of Dooku's execution really does work well.

2) The quickness of Palpatine's line "It is only natural" following on Anakin's line doesn't sound rushed to my ear anymore.

Overall, I hope I can edit my vision of Episode 3 as well as you've been editing your scenes!
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hehe... I'm glad you've come to see the darkside--er I mean the Light :-p

Anyways, I thought I might post these in here since we are still kinda talking about Dooku here... I would also encourage anyone who's interested in my edits to go to the thread I made My Episode III re-edit. Shameless plugging aside lol...

Anyways, I saw someone took the Dooku fight and had added some music from Episode II to it and I thought "Well, that kinda does something interesting for the fight.

I did notice something about the fight... there is just something all around odd about it. It's placement is odd... it's tone is strange... it's on-again-off-again fighting style is REALLY weird...

I added the music but I'm not sure which I prefer more. The other videos I had layered "Entrance of Dooku" lightly underneath just to keep a subtle ambiance... but past that I never put music in the dooku battle.

Anyways, I also thought about that one moment right near the end where the two get push off from each-other...it creates quite the delay... so I have made an edit without those few seconds just to see if I could keep the action going.

Also, to heighten the sense of Anakin's Anger, I placed a couple yells into the fight. two after Dooku says "You have hate, you have anger. But you don't use them." one is a long roar, and the second comes right after it giving it a nice "Raaaa-AH!" sound... as if dooku's lines might have done something...made him tap into the anger....

Also, when he actually severs Dooku's head, I added another yell.

Also, I removed that shot I wasn't happy with right after Palpatines line "It is only natural." Instead, I placed a shot of anakin, and moved the next shot forward. I split the next shot in half. The first half you simply hear under the new angle, and the second half you see and hear.

You'll see...

Anyways let me know what you all think. With or without music? With or without the moans? I also inserted a shot of Palpatine before Dooku force pushes Obi-Wan just to offset it slightly. DOes it work? Any ideas with that?

Here is WITH new music:

Dooku V4 - WITH music

Here is the same thing without the new music:

Dooku V4 v2 - WITHOUT music

EDIT:

I've kinda decided I like it without the music. I think I've finally figured out what's so odd about the first half of the fight... it's not really a fight at all... it's just a way to get them to talk... to state a few things...how things have changed... a set up for the second half of the fight which is the REAL fight... having music over the first half seems... out of place...

I'm also wondering about cuting the line "I sense great fear in you Skywalker." I'm thinking of maybe just having it jump to him saying "You have hate...anger... but you don't use them." I think it will be more powerful that way.


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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darkhelmet: Dooku's use of the word 'lightsaber' in Ep II comes just after the "lightning duel" with Yoda. To wit: "It is obvious that this contest cannot be resolved by our knowledge of the Force ... but by our skills with a lightsaber." Which also sucks as a line, but one man's trash is another man's treasure (or at least slightly-less-crappy trash.)

"My teaching is like a raft used to cross a river. Only a fool would carry the raft around after he reached the other side!"
--Buddha
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I suppose even if he just said "saber" ...we'd get the idea... but you are right... sword seems odd lol...luckally he is off camera and we can make him say "cheese" if we wanted! lol


Is it not sad that in this time, we are more surprised by acts of love than acts of hate?
-Me

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I think i'd prefer if he said something like "your weapons please". Tho I can't recall if he ever said 'weapons' maybe scour LOTR for something more useble. [although it is a film full of swords so...]

I used to find it odd that GL comes up fir really elaborate terms for things 'in universe' but never really uses those terms himself.