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Episode 3 was disappointing on many levels... — Page 4

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I just have one question on the whole Death Star issue... when do they actually say it is complete? I know Tarkin makes reference to this "fully functional battle station" which could imply that it was just completed (or was that Palpy in ROTJ who says that?). But why do we assume that it took what would actually be 18 years as Luke and Leia are born in ROTS and are 18 in ANH? Maybe it's been done for some time and has been floating about biding its time to make its first appearance. Or maybe they've been adding on or refining it before actually using it? Just some ideas to ponder.

Flame away.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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"and if over-confidence was the issue, then why didn't ben just yell, "No, Anakin ... you'll never make the jump!" Tossing out some vague new battle strategy involving "high ground" is, at best, another awful choice of explanatory dialogue. At worst, it's a cop-out."

Because Anakin would make the jump - he would just never complete the landing. Obi-wan tried to give him fair warning, because HE DID NOT WANT TO DO WHAT HE KNEW HE HAD TO DO. Obi-wan was trying to stave off the inevitable, and Anakin forced his hand. Not to mention the "high ground" could also be a metaphor for his moral standing - "you can't defeat me because I am fighting for good."

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Bossk
I just have one question on the whole Death Star issue... when do they actually say it is complete? I know Tarkin makes reference to this "fully functional battle station" which could imply that it was just completed (or was that Palpy in ROTJ who says that?). But why do we assume that it took what would actually be 18 years as Luke and Leia are born in ROTS and are 18 in ANH? Maybe it's been done for some time and has been floating about biding its time to make its first appearance. Or maybe they've been adding on or refining it before actually using it? Just some ideas to ponder.

Flame away.


that line was the Emperor in Jedi. Tarkin made some comment along the lines of a 'ribbon cutting event' when they first used it on Alderaan.

bossk, ive also thought of this possibiliy, but from the movie, it also seems that Palpatine was waiting to dissolve the senate until after he had the death star to use as that fear factor to control the people.

as far as the plans of the death star, that would have worked, but i think the problem there was they jumped the gun by already showing those in AOTC. Also, I think part of the scene at the end was meant to show Tarkin in a 'position of power' over the death star. not that this explains the time delay.

I think there is too much focus on the wording of "High Ground" rather than a more general strategic meaning of the term. Maybe it would have been better if Ben said he had the "Upper Hand" or something along those lines, but the point is still the same.

I just thought of something though, Ben's line in ANH 'You cant win Darth, if you strike me down i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine' He's basically telling him the same thing in that battle that he did in the Episode III battle, that Anakin cant win the fight. (also intersting in terms of Ben's convo with Yoda at the end of ROTS)

*edit*
ohh, good call on the metaphor MeBe

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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"I just thought of something though, Ben's line in ANH 'You cant win Darth, if you strike me down i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine' He's basically telling him the same thing in that battle that he did in the Episode III battle, that Anakin cant win the fight."

Good point on that parallel. That hadn't occurred to me.


[EDIT] Thanks. You too.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
"I just thought of something though, Ben's line in ANH 'You cant win Darth, if you strike me down i will become more powerful than you can ever imagine' He's basically telling him the same thing in that battle that he did in the Episode III battle, that Anakin cant win the fight."

Good point on that parallel. That hadn't occurred to me.


[EDIT] Thanks. You too.



I was just about to say that.

Obi Wan saying, "I've got the High Ground" fits well with the character. Everything with a wink and a grin. If anyone has ever watched an Errol Flynn movie, you'll understand the reference, but when he throws his hands open like that and delivers the line, it almost a "You've fought a good fight my friend, I have the advantage now, you can not win, good show" . Then Anakin, like any other villian in a swashbuckling tale, tries to snatch the victory because of his ego, and ultimately fails.

As for the idea that the Death Star could be completed before hand:
"Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my
guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No
star system will dare oppose the Emperor now"

": Not after we demonstrate the power of this station. In a way,
you have determined the choice of the planet that'll be destroyed
first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the
Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power...
on your home planet of Alderaan."

It could be said that the station was completed, but the weapon was not operational. It's hard to test run something that destroys planets without people noticing. So the station could have been completed, but the weapon taken longer to finish. Thus, when they built DSII, they constructed the weapon very early on, before even completing the shell.
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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"Because Anakin would make the jump - he would just never complete the landing. Obi-wan tried to give him fair warning, because HE DID NOT WANT TO DO WHAT HE KNEW HE HAD TO DO. Obi-wan was trying to stave off the inevitable, and Anakin forced his hand. Not to mention the "high ground" could also be a metaphor for his moral standing - "you can't defeat me because I am fighting for good.""


Expanding on MeBeJedi's point , Anakin and Obi-Wan consider each other family, brothers in arms, father and son, mentor and apprentice........Obi-Wan seems to be giving Anakin a hint hoping to touch something in him that might make him reconsider his attack and his turn to the dark side......a place to ground himself if you will but Anakin's emotions seem to block all he should know and he proceeds anyways (maybe subconciously hoping Obi-Wan may kill him to end his torture, instead of maming him like he does) and that might explain why Anakin tells Obi-Wan he hates him.....because Obi-Wan waivers in his compassion for Anakin and his feelings towards him.

This is all conjecture and my own humble opinion but with all the seemingly silent connections to outer inspirations for the movies, this does seem possible. That or I am just really full of shite and need a good ole force "beiotch" smack.......lmao

Peace!!!!
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About the Death Star scene, I take that this scene happens some years after Vader gets his suit. We see that the imperial officers are all recruited and in full uniform, and I doubt Palpatine had thousands of spare uniforms hiding in boxes just waiting for his evil plans to be completed.

"I will form a galactical empire to make sure there's peace!"
*applause *
"So that's how freedom dies, with thunderous applause"
*appluse ending*
"And I have some cool, new uniforms for those who chose to work for me... I have 3 sizes... And you get this cute cap"
* Tarkin walks in, modeling the hew outfits *
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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LOL!

Good point though. The shot with Vadar standing with the Emperor may have been flashing forward a few years.
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I would agree 99%, but would just point this out for consideration:

What if the montage, as it was shown, was in chronological order?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
About the Death Star scene, I take that this scene happens some years after Vader gets his suit. We see that the imperial officers are all recruited and in full uniform, and I doubt Palpatine had thousands of spare uniforms hiding in boxes just waiting for his evil plans to be completed.

"I will form a galactical empire to make sure there's peace!"
*applause *
"So that's how freedom dies, with thunderous applause"
*appluse ending*
"And I have some cool, new uniforms for those who chose to work for me... I have 3 sizes... And you get this cute cap"
* Tarkin walks in, modeling the hew outfits *


rofl

*and next we have Tarkin sporting the all weather Grand Moff Line, you'll notice his cap and how it really brings the whole outfit together *
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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I dunno, I guess you kind of have to suspend time on that one, much as you do with Luke becoming a Jedi in about 20 minutes on Dagobah. People want to complain about Anakin's fall happening so quick, how about Luke becoming atleast a well trained in a matter of a day or two?
The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Luke gets his ass kicked in ESB because he rushes into a fight without proper training. But yeah, he "learns what he needs" in under six months. That always struck me as kind of lame ... even when I was a kid.

But then, he's not strong enough to fight Palpatine ... he so weak by comparison that I wonder if Ben and Yoda expected that he'd be able to win against the sith, or else they saw him as a lamb to the slaughter who'd bring out the good pity in Vader's heart. You could say that they only intended Luke to fight Vader, but I'd think that they could see more clearly than that ... they'd know that Vader would want Luke to turn more than he'd want Luke to die, and so Luke would be exposed to Palps sooner rather than later.
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Difference being, we watched in real time as Anakin went from being a Jedi to becoming a Sith. As to Luke's training, there's no telling how long Luke was on Dagobah, or Han flying flying to Bespin without hyperdrive (while Vader leap frogged them and had enough time to set up camp at Bespin, I might add.) You could call it a 20 minutes, or 20 days, but there's no real way to indicate how much time passed during these scenes in ESB.

And I'll add this as well: Yoda didn't think Luke was prepared enough to leave.

"But yeah, he "learns what he needs" in under six months. That always struck me as kind of lame ... even when I was a kid."

Where, pray tell, did you get this "six months" number from?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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The ROTJ novelization claimed that six months passed between Empire and RotJ (though that silly Shadow of the Empire business might have changed it ... I don't remember).

Clearly, Luke is far more skilled at the beginning of RotJ than the end of Empire Strikes Back, so he was in heavy self-training in the time between those films. He's a completely different man ... so much so that Han can hardly believe it. Luke even built his own lightsaber ... something I didn't see Yoda teach him.
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Interesting, since I don't see the "six month" reference anywhere in the novel (I have it as a text file.)

"something I didn't see Yoda teach him."

And to think, you didn't like my bathroom analogy. As much as you have issues about the PT, you seem determined to make the worst of the OT as well. Maybe Lucas shouldn't be the biggest concern in regards to your enjoyment of these films?

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Your bathroom analogy had nothing to do with my previous points.

Read the novelization again ... I believe Lando is the one who determines the time frame, but it's determined in the Jabba portion of the book. And surely you know how the novel begins ... with Luke building his own lightsaber.



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"Your bathroom analogy had nothing to do with my previous points."

We never see the characters go to the bathroom. So they must never go to the bathroom.

We never see Yoda teach Luke how to build his lightsaber, so Yoda must never have taught Luke how to build his lightsaber.

Unless, of course, you meant something else when you stated that.

"Read the novelization again ... I believe Lando is the one who determines the time frame, but it's determined in the Jabba portion of the book."

Quote

Lando had managed to infiltrate this nest of maggots month's earlier to see if it was possible to free Solo from Jabba's imprisonment. He'd done this for several reasons.

First, because he felt (correctly) that it was his fault Han was in this predicament, and he wanted to make amends-provided, of course, he could do so without getting hurt. Blending in here, like just one of the pirates, was no problem for Lando, though-mistaken identity was a way of life with him.

Second, he wanted to join forces with Han's buddies at the top of the Rebel Alliance. They were out to beat the Empire, and he wanted nothing more in his life now than to do just that. The Imperial police had moved in on his action once too often; so this was a grudge match, now. Besides, Lando liked being part of Solo's crowd, since they seemed to be right up at the business end of all the action against the Empire.

Third, Princess Leia had asked him to help, and he just never could refuse a princess asking for help. Besides, you never knew how she might thank you some day.
Finally, Lando would have bet anything that Han simply could not be rescued from this place-and Lando just plain couldn't resist a bet.

So he spent his days watching a lot. Watching and calculating. That's what he did now, as Chewie was led away-he watched, and then he faded into the stonework.


Of course, this doesn't even take into account the time Lando spent just finding Han.

Quote

LANDO
(into comlink)
Princess, we'll find Han. I
promise.


INT. STAR CRUISER - MEDICAL CENTER

LUKE
(into comlink)
Chewie, I'll be waiting for your
signal.

Chewie's wail comes over the comlink.


Seems to me that, once again, you are trying to read the worst case scenario into these films. I'm getting the distinct impression you don't like any of the films.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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For that matter (the timeframe issue) DID Luke even go back to Yoda for training between ESB and ROTJ? In ROTJ when Luke *does* go to Dagobah doesn't he tell Yoda that he is 'back to complete his training'? And Yoda tells him that he has nothing left to learn?

Maybe, between ESB and ROTJ, the Force-ghost of Qui-Gon completes Luke's training!!!! Yeah, that's it! And Luke is just being sarcastic to the old Yoda about 'completing his training'. heh heh.
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Well, the official timeline says it's been about a year (and the films don't state anything about how long it took), so I don't think it defies belief to consider that Luke has been practicing this whole time.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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From the RotJ novelization:

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{Han} was, understandably, disoriented, after having been in suspended animation for six of this desert planet's months ...


I believe the six months was expanded to a year around the time Shadow of the Empire was launched.

About that lightsaber:

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...this lightsaber Luke had fashioned himself in Obi-Wan Kenobi's abandoned hut on the other side of Tatoonine, made with the old Master Jedi's tools and parts, made with love and craft and dire need.


Amazing how I haven't read this book since around 1984, yet can flip to the passages with ease without even having this in a digital format. More amazing that I even remember these details without having to refresh my memory, I guess.

And hey, since we've switched to "annoying hyper geek mode" ... we know lifeforms in this universe shit and fart, because Jar Jar stepped in crap. And we know that Anakin made love to Padme because, when he was informed that she was pregnant, he didn't squeal, "That can't be! We never did the nasty! Are you sure it's mine?"
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Originally posted by: greencapt
For that matter (the timeframe issue) DID Luke even go back to Yoda for training between ESB and ROTJ? In ROTJ when Luke *does* go to Dagobah doesn't he tell Yoda that he is 'back to complete his training'? And Yoda tells him that he has nothing left to learn?

Actually, he does.
from blueharvest.net:

YODA
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

LUKE
But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training.

YODA
No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.

Yoda sighs, and lies back on his bed.
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Originally posted by: Asha
And we know that Anakin made love to Padme because, when he was informed that she was pregnant, he didn't squeal, "That can't be! We never did the nasty! Are you sure it's mine?"


"You filthy whore!"

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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"{Han} was, understandably, disoriented, after having been in suspended animation for six of this desert planet's months .."

Allow me to point out the obvious,,,

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"six of this desert planet's months"

Do you want me to explain further, or do you see it?

"this lightsaber Luke had fashioned himself in Obi-Wan Kenobi's abandoned hut on the other side of Tatoonine, made with the old Master Jedi's tools and parts, made with love and craft and dire need."

A Jedi does have to create his own lightsaber - this much is true. That being said, did you think he pulled the knowledge out of thin air? Funny that Yoda taught Luke to lift rocks and do flips, but according to you, he learned how to build and wield a sword all by his lonesome. Seems to me that's the harder stuff.

"And hey, since we've switched to "annoying hyper geek mode"

As opposed to the "Let's dump on everything Star Wars, OT and all" mode? You go right on ahead and contrive the worst of everything in these films, for all the good it'll do you (which it won't - better have your blood pressure checked.) It doesn't affect my appreciation of the films at all.

I have far better things to do than watch you troll around and ruin every aspect of the films that you possibly can, though only for yourself.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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In regards to the "High ground/Anakin jumping" debate:

After my second viewing, I realised that Obi-wan isn't useing the high ground thing as a "strategy." He doesn't want to hurt, or kill Anakin and he knows what he'll be forced to do if Anakin tries to kill him... You can tell the way it's filmed and the way the lines are said, that the high ground thing is merely a way for Obi-wan to say "Please, Anakin. Don't do it." He just doesn't say it in those words, because he's probably trying to hide the fact that he doesn't want to hurt Anakin (at least untill after the battle).

Then Anakin, being the arogant, confused and angry person he's become, says "You don't know the extent of my power!" Or something along those lines, basically saying don't tell me what I can and can't do, because I'm way better than you.

So complaining about the high ground thing is pretty dumb, because it's obvious the way it was meant to be taken...


Also during my second viewing, I noticed that the Death Star actually looked a lot more complete than I had originally thought. So I now am leaning more towards the side saying it shouldn't of been shown. Though, the point by Ric does make sense.