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End of SE ROTJ... — Page 2

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Because it's his spirit, his soul, and it would speak volumes if his soul was charred and burned. But that's getting back into the whole redemption issue.

Here's a question for you: Why didn't you have a problem when Obi-Wan appeared as a whole person instead of just the top half of his body?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer TapeHere's a question for you: Why didn't you have a problem when Obi-Wan appeared as a whole person instead of just the top half of his body?



Touche.
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Originally posted by: Yoda Is Your Father

In my imagined backstory that I made up when I was about 8 years old and it was the nineteen-eighties, this is what I came up with:

"A young jedi named darth vader killed and murdered your father" - this makes me think that obi-wan's student, Darth vader, was young and inexperienced, and he fell to the darkside before he finished his jedi training, and therefore did not know that when somebody is truly one with the force, as obi-wan was, they disappear at death. Vader thought he was pretty hot shit, but he was a rank amatuer compared to Obi-wan, who truly understood the force, the universe, the way things are. Vader on the other hand gave in to evil and took the quick and easy path.

Of course, that was just a logical backstory based on the info we are given by the OT characters and has no relation to the actual backstory we were given in the PT. My imagined backstory had no 'jedi council' or any of that stuff. The jedi were more like wanderers, travelling around doing good heroic deeds.



exactly what i thought before seeing the prequels. that is why i dislike them so much: because they destroy my image of the original trilogy. all that midi-chlorian crap demistifying the jedi myth (it's only biology now...), the jesus subtext (making anakin special and not just a young person who turned bad, which happens also in the 'normal' world and hence is easier to relate to) and what i hate the most is Padme dying at child birth. totally destroys the emotional impact of the scene in ROTJ when Luke asks Leia about he rmother. now i know that it's not padme she's talking about, it's just Mrs. Organa, so Luke is not hearing about his own mother but just a random stranger with no direct association to him.

but to get on topic again: imo hayden as ghost was just a gimmick to anticipate ROTS. what does GL care that it does not make any sense if he can make more money out of it. again it destroys my personal theory: i thought that every jedi could do that, but then again, i also thought jedis were rare.

also, i don't agree that he looks young because that is when anakin died. anakin made the conscious decision to go to the dark side when young, so he shouldn't look like that as a force ghost. he managed to join the good side again when old, after becoming aware that the dark side ruined his life, and thus he gets rid of his darth vader persona and becomes an old jedi. that is his final image of himself and so that is how he presents himself to Luke (i like to think that one can choose one's appearance as a ghost). why would he like to be reminded of the moment when he made that fatal decision?
"Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told me that if I didn't take Lorraine out that he'd melt my brain."
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Originally posted by: theredbaron
Anakin Skywalker NEVER learned how to retain his identity in the Force. Therefore, according to this inadequate PT explanation, Anakin shouldn't have appeared at the end of Return of the Jedi AT ALL. Case closed.
Screw that logic. Anakin doesn't need to learn how to retain his identity in the Force. He was conceived by the Force. He IS the Force.
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Originally posted by: ShiftyEyes Screw that logic. Anakin doesn't need to learn how to retain his identity in the Force. He was conceived by the Force. He IS the Force.


Unless you go with the theory (which was in an earlier version of the screenplay and possibly in the novel, I don't quite remember) that Anakin was conceived by ol' Palpy . . .
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You all remember that the Emporer is a Jedi too right? It's pretty likely that he knows about the Ghost thing since he studied alot about it, even the dark side. I imagine he may have got around to teaching Darth since he was his apprentice for so long. Or he was taught about something similiar and He learned how to relate the info to being a ghost.

As for Qun honn or whatever his name was it could be that perhaps his body dissapears later offscreen since he didn't go williingly.
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I don't think Palpatine was ever a Jedi. Not all Sith began as Jedi.
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(In response to someone's earlier post,) When discussing the whole "ghosts" issue with Jedi, we must remember one thing.

Geroge Lucas is the guy who created the concept of the force, and it was brilliant. Then in episode one, he told us the force was basically a blood type.

This is the same guy who tried to convince us in ep. 3 that to have a ghost after death, you must learn a new teqnieque. The OT implies that when a jedi dies, he is so strongly in tune with the force that he becomes one with it and can come back and contact people through it.

Isn't the OT a bit more meaningful.....

And on the subject of Hayden Christiansen becoming Anakin in the end of ROTJ.....god that was stupid. George says he was supposed to look like the good Anakin. Then shouldn't he look like the one who redeemed himself by saving his son and killing the emporer? He was a good person who had redeemed himself at death, so that's how he should have looked.
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Yeah, Darth_Evil, that's the logic we've been spewing here for a year and a half, but do you think that George over there understands things like that? Of course not! ^_^

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Exactly. It's almost as if this Special Edition and Prequel nonsense infused into the Star Wars canon (Force ability being measured by numbers, becoming a spirit actually being a skill) is inspired by role-playing stats and a video game mentality as opposed to the more mythological influence of the O-OT. It utterly cheapens Star Wars, making it the worst kind of sci-fi swill.
A TF.N Basher's Sanctuary member in exile.
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Originally posted by: Wampa_Joe
Exactly. It's almost as if this Special Edition and Prequel nonsense infused into the Star Wars canon (Force ability being measured by numbers, becoming a spirit actually being a skill) is inspired by role-playing stats and a video game mentality as opposed to the more mythological influence of the O-OT. It utterly cheapens Star Wars, making it the worst kind of sci-fi swill.
You have perfectly summed up my thoughts on the matter. Thank You. Star Wars was once a great, mystical, magical tale, more akin to LOTR than, for example, Star Trek. Now it's just generic sci-fi geek crap.

War does not make one great.

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Ive never seen the end of ROTJ SE 2.0 and I never will. I feel its an insult and when I read about the changes mad back in '04 for the DVD's, I vomited with terror. George can keep that manure for I'll never spend a dime on it along with the PT. The OOT is all the story I need.

"There's no cluster of midiclorians that controls my destiny!" -Han Solo, from a future revision of ANH

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Originally posted by: Hoth-Nudist
Ive never seen the end of ROTJ SE 2.0 and I never will. I feel its an insult and when I read about the changes mad back in '04 for the DVD's, I vomited with terror. George can keep that manure for I'll never spend a dime on it along with the PT. The OOT is all the story I need.


I'm always surprised when I hear such vehement reactions to the 2004 DVDs. Don't you think that most of the visual changes -- replacing the chimpanzee-eyed old lady with Ian McDarmid, the more realistic looking corridor, replacing the English (Basic?) words with an alien script, a much better-looking Jabba than in the 1997 SEs, etc. -- are improvements over the 1997 SEs? Okay, so replacing Sebastian with Hayden might not have been the best idea (though I'm perfectly fine with it), as is letting Greedo still shoot first (I don't know why so many reports say they now fire simultaneously -- it's pretty obvious to me that Greedo's shot comes earlier), but most of the changes made in the 2004 DVDs from the 1997 SEs are far less intrusive than the ones made in the 1997 SEs from the earlier versions.

EDIT: Aurebesh! I can't believe I forgot the name of that "alien script".
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Originally posted by: wmgan
Don't you think that most of the visual changes -- replacing the chimpanzee-eyed old lady with Ian McDarmid, the more realistic looking corridor, replacing the English (Basic?) words with an alien script, a much better-looking Jabba than in the 1997 SEs, etc. -- are improvements over the 1997 SEs?
The 'improved ' Emperor lookd like absolute shit, plus the new dialogue was crap.

War does not make one great.

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Better-looking Jabba? The '97 Jabba looked remotely like a very sad, crying Jabba. The '04 Jabba looks more fierce and realistic, but he doesn't look anything like Jabba the Hutt! And my main bitching point is that that scene exists at all!

Ugh, I remember my friend's ex-girlfriend once tried to argue the point with me because she thought that the Jabba scene was actually in the original cuts with only the original actor in there. And though my friend used to be a huge Star Wars nut, he wouldn't back me up!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I think the new 2004 dvd ending works in the context of the I-VI "Saga" very well (other than Hayden at the end there). The original "celebrate the love" works in the context IV-VI very well.

The Secret History of Star Wars -- now available on Amazon.com!

"When George went back and put new creatures into the original Star Wars, I find that disturbing. It’s a revision of history. That bothers me."

--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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Admittedly, but it's obvious he's trying to keep anyone from watching just IV-VI anymore. You suddenly see these planets you've never seen before and this Anakin you've never seen before, and, unless you've already watched the prequels, you have no idea what the hell's going on. That's a bit underhanded.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer TapeUgh, I remember my friend's ex-girlfriend once tried to argue the point with me because she thought that the Jabba scene was actually in the original cuts with only the original actor in there. And though my friend used to be a huge Star Wars nut, he wouldn't back me up!


Perhaps she read that scene in the original novelization and assumed it would also have been in the movie?
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No. She only saw Special Editions, but she watched the documentary beforehand where George explains the changes, and she misinterpreted it to think that that scene was actually in the movie before. So she claimed that the original versions (which she'd never seen before) sucked because Jabba was a human.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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wmgan posted

'm always surprised when I hear such vehement reactions to the 2004 DVDs. Don't you think that most of the visuIal changes -- replacing the chimpanzee-eyed old lady with Ian McDarmid, the more realistic looking corridor, replacing the English (Basic?) words with an alien script, a much better-looking Jabba than in the 1997 SEs, etc. -- are improvements over the 1997 SEs? Okay, so replacing Sebastian with Hayden might not have been the best idea (though I'm perfectly fine with it), as is letting Greedo still shoot first (I don't know why so many reports say they now fire simultaneously -- it's pretty obvious to me that Greedo's shot comes earlier), but most of the changes made in the 2004 DVDs from the 1997 SEs are far less intrusive than the ones made in the 1997 SEs from the earlier versions.Text

Well, Ive never seen the 04' DVD's and I never will. I cant stand the 97' SE's anymore. The only thing I liked about those were addition of Biggs in ANH before the DS assault. Once I heard about more changes and shatty additions (gungan voice at the end of ROTJ WEESA FREE!) that burst my bubble. I'll always be an OOT fan solely. IMO due to the lousy OT changes and the shatty PT, Luca$ doesnt know what SW is about anymore. He just knows it makes money.

"There's no cluster of midiclorians that controls my destiny!" -Han Solo, from a future revision of ANH

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I always thought that it worked like this:

If a Jedi allows himself/herself to die, he/she can fade away and become a ghost.
If the Jedi is killed unexpectedly or against his/her will, the corpse remains.
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First let me say howdy. I was a long term poster on the JCC at TFN, but I was banned for being critical of the films. I signed the OOT DVD petition last year and after I saw that the OOT was finally being released on DVD I decided to check out the petition again, which brought me to the forums.

The insertion of HC in the 2004 DVD’s totally invalidates the entire Saga. Since 1983 George has been saying that the OT was about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. So was Anakin redeemed by Luke or not? If he was redeemed by his son it is only logical that he should appear in the form he last had when he was alive. That would be the old, redeemed Anakin not the young, yet to be redeemed Anakin.

I know some will say that Anakin had to appear as HC because that was the last time he was in one piece. This ignores the fact that the other Force Ghosts we see in the OT are idealized versions of a Jedi’s last physical form. That’s why Ben’s ghost doesn’t have a Lightsaber hole in it. That’s’ why Yoda’s ghost can sit comfortably and doesn’t appear to have trouble breathing, both of which his physical body was incapable of just before he died.

We need to also look at the implications that the HC ghost creates for the GFFA afterlife. Apparently if you serve the light side of the force and remain true to the Jedi ideals you are rewarded in the afterlife by living eternally in your old ass decrepit body. However, if you serve the dark side and murder those you love you get to live as a young, virile ghost for all eternity. Does that make any sense?
"Look, going good against bashers/gushers is one thing. Going good against the living? That's something else."
- Darth-Adroit

“I also thought George could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more CGI now than story. Twisted and evil.”
- Darth-Adroit
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I wonder if when Luke looked at Anakin in the '04 editions if he thought "Who the hell is that....I mean, I guess it's my dad but I look nothing like him. And why the hell isn't he really even looking at me? Is that douche smirking now?"

Hey look, a bear!

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Well, going by my theory that Force ghosts are felt rather than seen, Luke would have sensed his father's presence and thus known who he was.
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Luke does a pretty good job of following Ben's eyes and body language when they have their chat in RotJ. I think he saw him.
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Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.