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Editing the '2oo4 Editions' - which changes would you revert?

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This is a discussion that started in another thread, as sort of an 'off topic' element of it. Since I deemed this topic to be worthy of it's own thread, so here's what's been said so far:
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Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas
Once the '2oo4 editions' are out on DVD I will use all my available resources to recut the films to my liking, undoing all the changes I did not like (hopefully I'll have a dual layer burner by then, so I can put both german and english audio tracks on there).
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Originally posted by: jimbo
Id like to do the same thing really. I would have to do very little editing since I oviously love the vast majority of the changes. My edit would be the 2004 edition except

Han shoots first (I know Joe_H that is looks alot better then 1997 but I still liked it better in its original form)
Jabba scene would still be there except the camera pulls away when Han steps on Jabbas tail
Bobas has his old voice
Shaw would play Anakins ghost

Master Sifo-Dyas you claim you would like to edit out bad changes. Which ones would you edit out? I gave mine.

Well, I'm haven't really thought in detail about the changes I plan to take back, but here's what I could come up with from the top of my head:

- Remove 'funny' slapstick scenes like the robo-drone teasing the worker droid and the java falling from his steed.
- Restore the wolfman to the cantina scene.
- Restore Han not waiting for Greedo to shoot first
- Cut the infamous Jabba/Boba Fett/Falcon appearing ahead of their time scene
- Restore the original Alderaan explosion
- Restore the blaster chest-impacts on Imperial Officers aboard the deathstar
- Eventually restore the old Dianoga eye (since I don't really like yet another cat-eyed monster)
- Restore the old deathstar explosion

- Find a smart way to reedit the 'Emperor's phone call' scene, to avoid Vader having to say new lines (and probably cutting down on the dumbed down 'in-your-face' mentioning of Luke). If that should not be possible, undo the change and use the old scene.
- Restore Luke's 'you're lucky you don't taste very good' line
- Restore Vader's original 'ugh' when he falls from the carbon freeze platform
- Remove the Emperor's deathshout from Luke's plunge down the ventilation shaft on Bespin
- Restore Vader's line to 'Bring my shuttle', leaving the expanded scene intact with the exception of the recycled RotJ shots inside the stardestroyer's hangar.
- Eventually cutting down on the number of the 'opened up' wall scenes on cloud city.

- Eventually restoring the old 'lapti nek' scene
- Restoring Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's ghost (and remove the lines that explain hayden's appearance in epVI from epIII, once that is out on DVD)

That's all I can come up with for now. Yet I think it'll be enough work already
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Why would you want the wolfman back? Rick Backer the creater of that mask pulled it off the shelf and expected it to be only used in the background. He was shocked to find it with such a prominant place. As for the line change. "Bring me my Shuttle" makes no sense. His shuttle is already there. "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" is much better. Why would you want the old diango back. The new one seems much more alive. I also think the rings in the blasts add realism and are much better then before. Still I am glad you gave your opinion.
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Well, actually the wolfman thing is more about nostalgia feelings on my side, to be honest. Yet on the other hand I was never very happy with the creature they used to replace the wolfman (especially since I thought that it just looked equally crappy, not better. So I'd rather stick with what I got used to watch). Another thing is, that they did a sloppy job replacing the creature, since they left the 'wolfman sounds' in there instead of creating unique sounds for the new creature they came up with.

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The 'Bring me my shuttle' line is a controversial thing. How do we know that it's already there? We don't know that. Perhaps he had it sent up back to his stardestroyer on the far side of the system to hide any kind of imperial presence on Bespin. Fact is, we don't know. It's just a matter of viewer's off-screen imagination. My main reason to revert back to the old line is consistency of sound. The line they used to replace the old one, was taken from the dialogue archives of epIV so it doesn't really 'go with the flow' as Vader does sound entirely different (even though it's the same actor talking).

Another thing is, that that line kinda announces what will happen next. Redundant informations like that always get on my nerves, because it makes me feel like LFL thinks I'm too dumb to add 2+2 together. I don't need to be told everything twice. I want a fast paced movie. And that elongated scene/dialogue always seems to hit the brake on the action for me. In my eyes it's like a double post on a forum that no one cared to delete.

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When it comes down to the rings in the blasts in 'A New Hope', I never thought they were a huge improvement. In fact it made it even more boring because every planetary body (Alderaan, DeathStar I, DeathStar II) all had that same effect, same color, same extension speed and above all: 2 Dimensional. The only time it really felt like an improvement to me, was in RotJ since I was never quite satisfied with the cartoony look of that explosion. So for the sake of keeping that effect addition fresh and unique to me, I only left it with the explosion that looked the most boring to my eyes in it's original form.

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Edit: The Dianoga thing is just a first reaction to the screenshot I saw of it, eventually I'll leave it in there. Alas, at this moment I'm really bored about yet another monster with 'cateyes'. That's really all there is to it for me.
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My changes

Han would shoot first (Even though it alot better then 1997 then before I still prefer its original form)
Han woud not step on Jabbas tail
Boba would have his old voice
Shaw would play Anakins ghost
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We don´t know where Vader´s shuttle is and neither does he. He landed on Cloud City and then stayed there for several hours I suppose and the shuttle could have flown back to the Star Destroyer for fuel or whatever. It´s not Vader´s job to know where his transport is at all times so he just says pissed off as hell after having failed to convert Luke to the darkside, "Bring my shuttle." You can hear just how angry he is in the scene as apposed to the silly and technical "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" line. There´s just no contest as to which line is better suited to the scene, that is my opinion anyway.

As for other changes the biggest ones I don´t want in there are:

1) That fuckin Greedo scene. It makes a mockery of the original rogue hardball Han Solo character. And it ruins the shock/surprise when he comes back in the Death Star battle and saves Luke from Vader. Plus it looks incredibly silly and unconvincing. GC at it´s worst!

2) The Jabba scene in ANH. I liked more when this Jabba character was a bit of a mystery. Plus this CG thing is absolutely pathetic with the "stepping on the tail" bit especially bad. Lucas should just have left that scene out as it serves absolutey no purpose at all. We know Han owes him money and he´s working on it. It works much better to have the Jabba character as the ominous figure he was in the original versions. What happened to some damn mystique Lucas?

3) Replacing Sebastian Shaw with Hayden is incredibly stupid and goes to show that Lucas has no respect for anything. Why on earth is this necessary? And if we take the silly explanation made by Lucas as to the reason for doing this then that is lame to say the least. If Anakin really did "die" back when he was young then why did Lucas have the old Anakin in Return Of The Jedi?? Anyway everybody knows that Luke brought out the good in Anakin at the very end and why shouldn´t he then appear as the older Anakin, he had turned away from the dark side then!? That´s right, there´s no reasoning behind this other than to try to connect the new movies to the older ones for commercial reasons. And what about the fact that we see Anakin as an old man during the unmasking and then a few minutes later we have the young one, how´s that for continuity?! And last but not least, how on earth could Luke know who that young Anakin is, since he has never seen him before? And I´m sure Lucas thought about it REAL hard to just digitally replace Shaw in the unmasking scene too. I bet he did, but hopefully someone told him not to do that. Lucas is just like a big baby in a candy store and has lost touch with his ones legendary vision. He´s to old for this shit.

4) The new scene with The Emperor and Vader is silly and unnecessary and just about messes up the only real surprise of the trilogy when Vader tells Luke he is his father later on in the film. What´s left when we look at the whole SW saga then, there´s nothing that will come as a shock or a surprise when people watch the six movies in numeral order. That´s a real shame.

5) I would like to see the humorous "You´re lucky you don´t taste very good" line back in. The replacement is just plain boring.

6) I would also like to see a middle ground taken in the windows /open spaces CG on Cloud City. I always kind of liked the claustrophobic feeling there.

7) As I mentioned here above I would ofcourse like to see the "Bring my shuttle" line back in. Much cooler, darker and in keeping with Vader´s character.

That´s about it regarding the changes, everything else is really minescule and unimportant for me anyway. But I guess it will be very hard to edit the movies in a DYS kind of way cause the difference between the picture and sound quality of the official DVD´s and some bootlegs in pretty big. So if one was to splice for example the original "Han shoots first" scene into the new DVD version then that would stick out like a sore thumb to put it mildly.

I´ll continue to watch my old version on my DVD-R´s cause those are the movies I love and grew up watching with all their qualities/faults. Lucas doesn´t seem to care about those old groundbreaking versions (that´s his problem)... but I care and I see a whole community of fans who feel the same way... ;-)

peace,

Rebelscum
peace,

Rebelscum
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Rebal Scum if you complain about the animation in the Jabba scene don't worry it has been fixed and looks much much better. Also this is the scene how it was originally scripted and planned so it belongs in the movie. Also about the Greedo scene it has been fixed to look much better. The scene is just as good as it was originally technologically but it was still better for Han to shoot first. Also I like the new Emperor change. Id rather have him be the Ian Mckain then an old women with Chimpanze eyes. It ensures better continuality with Return of the Jedi and the Prequals. Ian Mckain also has a cooler voice then Clive Revel did. The new dialog also enhances the scene. I love the new cloud city. I don't know why I ever liked Cloud city before. Its just better now. Totally agree with you on the Hayden head change.
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Well, I do like having Ian McDiarmid as Emperor in ESB. What I do not like is the dialogue changes that are rumored to have gone along with it. Hopefully the new footage can be edited in a way that allows to keep Ian McDiarmid minus the over-revealing dialogue changes.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
Rebal Scum if you complain about the animation in the Jabba scene don't worry it has been fixed and looks much much better. Also this is the scene how it was originally scripted and planned so it belongs in the movie. Also about the Greedo scene it has been fixed to look much better. The scene is just as good as it was originally technologically but it was still better for Han to shoot first. Also I like the new Emperor change. Id rather have him be the Ian Mckain then an old women with Chimpanze eyes. It ensures better continuality with Return of the Jedi and the Prequals. Ian Mckain also has a cooler voice then Clive Revel did. The new dialog also enhances the scene. I love the new cloud city. I don't know why I ever liked Cloud city before. Its just better now. Totally agree with you on the Hayden head change.


- I am fully aware of all the new DVD changes but still I would have prefered that Jabba scene omitted from the film. It was better IMO to have him as this mysterius character that was like a dark ominous figure in Solo´s life - something that threatens his life. After having seen this comical CG of him in ANH, well that just ruins it for me. Now he´s just a silly blob of fat, not at all menacing like he was when we finally saw him in Return Of The Jedi in all his slimey greatness.

Also, the new changes to the Han/Greedo encounter are not enough to make this scene convincing, not at all! Greedo still shoots first and Han "is just defending himself"! Come on peepz that is just plain stupid and a HUGE change to his character. This will continue to be my most hated change by Lucas.

And the actor who plays The Emperor is actually called Ian McDiarmid. And I agree he does a much better job of it than the other one, but those script changes to the scene are stupid and as I said ruin most of the surprise when we learn Vader is Luke´s father. And that´s not a good thing, since that was a pivotal scene in the original trilogy.

peace,

Rebelscum
peace,

Rebelscum
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That surprise is going to be gone after watching Revenge of the Sith anyway. Who cares if it reveals this again in The Empire Strikes Back. While I don't like the censoring of the blaster hits those are so small and unnoticable I would consider editing them back in a waste of time. Wait a minute Episode 3 gives an explaination for the Hayden head. If Revenge of the Sith does say something that makes the Hayden head thing make sense then I might change my mind about this change.
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Master Sifo-Dyas, have you thought of making your eventual edit into a bootleg common people like myself could own?

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000
Master Sifo-Dyas, have you thought of making your eventual edit into a bootleg common people like myself could own?

(shamelessly asks for a free copy since father won't allow me to purchase bootleg Star Wars DVDs although they are rare exceptions)


Editing a movie for yourself is alright. Editing a movie and distributing it is stealing.
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Yeah, and that "Hayden head thing" just goes to show that Lucas had never written the whole saga, but is writing this on the go as he´s filming the new trilogy. He´s making adjustments to the original trilogy according to what he´s concocting up for those new movies. If that "Anakin dies young and therefore his ghost images in young" explanation were in the original story which Lucas said he had to write back before he even finished the first one, then why wasn´t the ghost image of a young Anakin in the original Return Of The Jedi, why did he have the old Sebastion Shaw there?? This makes absolutely no sense.

And as Master Sifo-Dyas said, we are not stupid. We don´t have to be told everything twice to understand it and leave nothing to the imagination. This new method from Lucas is extraordinarily stupid considering when back in the late 70´s and early 80´s he had a much cooler and more adult approach to things by not showing everything to make sure those "moviegoer idiots" understand what he´s trying to say. He has obviously forgotten that classic saying; "less is more". You don´t need everything straight in your face - well except he has totally changed his audience for his movies - that is very young children who don´t understand anything!!

peace,

Rebelscum
peace,

Rebelscum
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jimbo, Rebelscum: Heh, I never really pondered over this before, but your discussion kinda made me to. I can't remember were I read/heard it, but George Lucas himself once said that he wants people to think of his six StarWars films as one big film.

But I think you two are absolutely right. I am really a fans of the prequels as well, but when it comes down to it, they are really not designed to be watched before the classic trilogy, for they reveal so many informations that shouldn't be available for first time classic trilogy watchers (I'm thinking follow up generations here). So I think you two are right that they really don't work as 'one big film' when watched in the correct chronological order of story events.

Jimbo, you have to think about it from the point-of-view of people watching the movies for the first time and how the story works out then. If there are too many spoilers in there, all those great moments us StarWars veterans had during scenes like Vader revealing him being Luke's father will be ruined for them - now with the '2oo4 Editions' they won't even be able to avoid those spoilers by watching the classic trilogy first.

Much of the new stuff seems to be tailored for viewers who already have seen the classics a dozen times.
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I know the real reason why Hayden appers as his younger self.
Some believe that when you die and go to heaven or what not, you can apper as a ghost when you felt happiest.
Ben died helping his freinds out in the Death Star, knowing he had foung the 'new hope'. Thats the only reason he spent all his life on Tatooine. His mission is complete. He's done his bit. He's redeemed himself for Vader.
Yoda, simular in the way that the 'new hope' has made his way to Dagobah, with Yoda waiting all this time for Luke. Knowing that Luke is the only real way this shit will all end.
Then Anakin. Who died twice in a way. As old Anakin, he died happy. It was finished. They had won. With the help of his son, who up untill recently he thoght dead(Maybe? - 3) had saved him. Killed that soab Palpatine and restored freedom to the Galaxie. But he also died once before. Was mureded by Darth Vader. When Anakin seeced(sp?) to exist.

So why I say this change does actually make more sense is this, if you watch then in order 1- 6, is:
As gohst's we get to choose how we look. For Ani to look like his younger self is as simple as this. Thats how everybody apart from Luke, knew him when he was good. The duel we'll see in 3, thats the last time Anakin Skywalker was seen. From then on he becomes Datrh Vader.
Only when Luke saved him, all he saw was this tired, sad looking old man.
So when Ani becomes a ghost, he chooses to look like the person they all knew and loved when he was still Anakin and not Vader.
Luke must know this too, so thats why he's smiling. He knows that he's done his bit too.........





EDIT...............

EDIT...............

While i was writing all this shit, there were 2 more posts!
So it looks like I'm repeating what someone else said. I'm not

http://www.facebook.com/DirtyWookie

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Yah, I actually think there are quite a bunch of ways to explain the appearance of a younger Anakin spirit. The simple fact is, that I prefer the older Anakin spirit to appear in the end. That's why my personal edit of my EpIII DVD will have the explanation of a younger Anakin spirit in RotJ 'misterously vanish'.
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Jimbo: I agree. However this is a compromise between two DIFFERENT versions of a film.

This is one of those rare exceptions.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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HotRod, this doesn´t explain why then the younger Anakin wasn´t in the original Jedi. This is because Lucas is scripting this on the go and making changes accordingly to make up for his lack of vision. This proves that he only wrote some "very basic" outlines for the backstory to the Original Trilogy.

peace,

Rebelscum
peace,

Rebelscum
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Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas
jimbo, Rebelscum: Heh, I never really pondered over this before, but your discussion kinda made me to. I can't remember were I read/heard it, but George Lucas himself once said that he wants people to think of his six StarWars films as one big film.

But I think you two are absolutely right. I am really a fans of the prequels as well, but when it comes down to it, they are really not designed to be watched before the classic trilogy, for they reveal so many informations that shouldn't be available for first time classic trilogy watchers (I'm thinking follow up generations here). So I think you two are right that they really don't work as 'one big film' when watched in the correct chronological order of story events.

Jimbo, you have to think about it from the point-of-view of people watching the movies for the first time and how the story works out then. If there are too many spoilers in there, all those great moments us StarWars veterans had during scenes like Vader revealing him being Luke's father will be ruined for them - now with the '2oo4 Editions' they won't even be able to avoid those spoilers by watching the classic trilogy first.

Much of the new stuff seems to be tailored for viewers who already have seen the classics a dozen times.


Technically he says "I know he is the spawn of Anakin Skywalker" technically if you have never seen Revenge of the Sith or any part of modern pop culture you won't know Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same person.

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But that explanayion might the the explanatio as to why Ben and Yoda can dissapear. Thats important to the story. "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"
See, you need the reason for this in the film. So then you'll know why Ben let VAder kill him. As well as other reasons of corse.

http://www.facebook.com/DirtyWookie

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Jimbo,

The new scene also has this little dialogue:

- Search "your" feelings Lord Vader. "You" will know it to be true. He could destroy us.

This basically gives it away that Vader is indeed Anakin Skywalker. Why else would Vader search his "own" feeling about this??

peace,

Rebelscum

peace,

Rebelscum
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Originally posted by: Rebelscum
HotRod, this doesn´t explain why then the younger Anakin wasn´t in the original Jedi. This is because Lucas is scripting this on the go and making changes accordingly to make up for his lack of vision. This proves that he only wrote some "very basic" outlines for the backstory to the Original Trilogy.

peace,

Rebelscum


No it did not before, but now it does. Back then it just meant finding a younger Ani. Unless you know why there's a younger Ani there in the fist place, you'd think, if you watched Jedi for the fist time, why the fuck is there a young Ghost?
But now after watching 3, you'll understand why.
And thats why Lucas is doing this. To quote "He's quite clever you know. For a human being".

http://www.facebook.com/DirtyWookie

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jimbo, HAL9000: I understand were your respective point of views come from and both are valid, but I'd rather prefer it if people would channel such requests through PMs. It was always my opinion that open bootleg talk could mean the undoing of these boards one day.

HAL9000: I did not plan to publically share my edits, because that would involve copyright infringement since it'd mostly contain footage from the '2oo4 editions', that will (unlike the original theatrical cuts) still being sold at that given time. I assume in many countries even the publication of the original theatrical cuts might not be legal.

Although I might freely share it with some of my friends who don't have the technical equipment nor the ability to create such an edit for themselves, but are still interested in having my custom version alongside with their '2oo4 edition' originals.

Hehe, but it's all just wishful thinking, atm. We'll have to wait and see if I'm actually able to pull it off.
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This is what I would keep from the 1997 version:

* Sarlaac pit. Oh well.
* Windows on cloud city.
* "You're lucky to get out of there". Sounds better, and it was the original theatrical release line, I think.
* Biggs scene before the battle. It's ok I guess.


Things I would keep from the 2004 version:

* The new Jabba minus tail steping and minus Bobba Fett.
* Maybe the new celebration scene, but I haven't seen it yet, so I don't know.


The rest would be like the original ones, except I wouldn't mind correcting matte lines and cuts when lightsabers are turned on/off.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: jimbo
Technically he says "I know he is the spawn of Anakin Skywalker" technically if you have never seen Revenge of the Sith or any part of modern pop culture you won't know Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same person.
Ah, ok. So basically you can still watch the '2oo4 editions' as a first-time-viewer and be shocked about Vader being Luke's father. That's good to know.