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Lucas was still reworking the turn scene after post production!

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This is a essay on the mace/palps scene where Anakins turns, and how it was much different than what was originally filmed in 2003. I guess that is my biggest problem with the turn, and why so many people dislike it because this whole scene Lucas should have had in mind before writing the PT. He shouldn't have been re-working this crucial scenes in post-production, this is the key to the movie! It is an interesting read on how it was first filmed, and may explain why Anakins actions as he turns come off as just plain awkward, when it should have been the crowning jewel of the PT:

It explains that Anakin was actually there when Mace goes to arrest Palps, and actually takes Palps side before anything happens, here is the rest of the article:


Homing Beacon #139 (June 23, 2005)

It's one of the fieriest debates of online fan forums: when Palpatine was cornered in his office's giant window-frame, was he really overpowered by Mace? Or was he faking to lure Anakin? Could Mace really have gotten the upper hand on the Sith Lord?

George Lucas is the ultimate keeper of the true answer, and he's not telling... yet, anyway. If you had asked me in the Summer of '03, when the sequence was first shot, I would have had a solid answer. But, if you asked me in the Fall of '04, when the sequence was re-shot, well... for those who want to debate, it's best to know more of the story of how this scene came to be.

This entire sequence changed significantly during postproduction. What we witnessed in Sydney told a different story. Anakin did not earn Mace's trust by ratting out Sidious right away. He did not agonize over his decisions while sitting alone in the Jedi Council chamber. He did not rush in at the last minute to witness a questionable balance of power. Instead, he stayed at Palpatine's side, in the Chancellor's private office, as Mace and his posse of Jedi barged in.

"Stand behind me," ordered Mace, in Sam Jackson's demanding tones. But Anakin didn't budge. Instead, he watched passively as Palpatine used the Force to snatch Anakin's lightsaber from his belt and attacks Mace and the Jedi. There's ample evidence of this original version for those with sharp eyes and behind-the-scenes photos. Heck, even Hasbro action figures with Palpatine packaged with Anakin's lightsaber got out there in the initial shipments.

So, if Sidious' entire duel played out before Anakin's stunned eyes, I'd be inclined to think that his fall was just for show. This changed after a screening George Lucas held for a few key colleagues. Their reactions underscored the shortcomings of the way this duel was constructed. Anakin's inaction was hard to justify cinematically. "The story was there, but it wasn't clear," said Lucas at the time it came to rebuild this scene. "It was too abstract. We opened up that part and looked at what we could do."

When word of the change came down, the keepers of continuities started carefully tracking the evolving consequences. Palpatine had two lightsabers, then, since he loses this one in the duel with Mace. I still have in my inbox a tentative email from one of the authors asking, "um, have we figured out yet whose lightsaber Palpatine uses in the fight with the Jedi?"

At first, it was feared it was impossible to CG the small svelte-handled weapon over Anakin's relatively chunky handle, but nonetheless, that was the lightsaber given to McDiarmid for the pickup photography. The shots of Palpatine rising from his chair and extending the weapon were reshot. The bulk of the duel between Sidious and Mace stayed from principal photography, except for a new touch -- a kick to Palpatine's face, done with stunt double Michael Byrne. This was shot on a partial set of just a piece of window-frame on Friday, August 27.

So... with this revised duel, if Sidious threw the fight, it places an awful lot of faith on Anakin's timing ...and he suffered a kicked-in face to boot. For what it's worth to those arguing, I doubt there's anyone who thinks Palpatine's serious when he claims he's too weak. That's obviously a lie. But was the fall into the corner that preceded his pleas for help a lie as well?

What else changed in this scene? There are a few more interesting details, particularly where it moved in the sequencing of the story. But that will have to wait for another entry.

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Very good read CO- thanks! I find it sad that Lucas puts so much credence into to views and opinions of his peer group (assumedly Spielberg et al) and at the same time seemingly dismisses the views of most of the vast empire (pun intended) of LFL, studios etc. I'm not saying he should listen to everyone, just that someone who makes such a big deal of publically stating his is the ONLY opinion that matters shouldn't second-guess himself like that. I was recently watching the 'scene in a minute' (or whatever) behind the scenes docu on the 'Sith' DVD and a couple of things stuck out in my mind. One was GL talking about bringing Spielberg in as a consultant. When addressing his own employees GL repeatedly referred to Spielberg as 'our director'. This was only vaguely tongue-in-cheek and I got the impression that somewhere under the surface GL really felt like under Spielberg he wasn't a 'real' director. The other thing that struck me was the fear in the faces of the employees when Lucas was around them. They all look petrified to me. And the guy who says "George really suports us and our ideas- he'll look at something and say 'that's great- just not in MY movie'"- that doesn't sound very supportive to me. That sounds more like 'quit dicking around and do what I told you or you're out'.

Dunno, maybe its just me.
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CO: Another thing that changed in the scene was that Mace used to have two lightsabers when he was fighting Siddious at the window.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4453/maceattackssidious1kw.th.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4453/maceattackssidious1kw.jpg

This reminds me of reading about George's first intentions to have Obiwan the "main" jedi in TPM for the first act. Then, he meets Quigon at Coruscant I read it here. For a guy that professes that he wants his "original vision" to be seen he does change it a lot.

http://twister111.tumblr.com
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Son. of. a. bitch. That would have worked MUCH better having Obi-Wan to be the main Jedi instead of treating him as the secondary character he is in TPM.
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Exactly. Logical storytelling would have made Obi-Wan the hero of the first prequel showing his character to the greatest degree. Then possibly at the end of that film he meets this 'great pilot' who he decides to make into something greater. Then segue into the next film which shows the pair working together, possibly in the clone wars, but developing the story in a way which shows they have different methodology and perhaps cannot work as well together as they initially thought. Finally open the third film with the rift between the two, with Ben working to reign in his friend who has gone rogue, ending with the 'final' clash between the two.

I'm not writing the PT here, just theorizing on possible theme pacing that could have been.
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Originally posted by: greencapt
Very good read CO- thanks! I find it sad that Lucas puts so much credence into to views and opinions of his peer group (assumedly Spielberg et al) and at the same time seemingly dismisses the views of most of the vast empire (pun intended) of LFL, studios etc. I'm not saying he should listen to everyone, just that someone who makes such a big deal of publically stating his is the ONLY opinion that matters shouldn't second-guess himself like that. I was recently watching the 'scene in a minute' (or whatever) behind the scenes docu on the 'Sith' DVD and a couple of things stuck out in my mind. One was GL talking about bringing Spielberg in as a consultant. When addressing his own employees GL repeatedly referred to Spielberg as 'our director'. This was only vaguely tongue-in-cheek and I got the impression that somewhere under the surface GL really felt like under Spielberg he wasn't a 'real' director. The other thing that struck me was the fear in the faces of the employees when Lucas was around them. They all look petrified to me. And the guy who says "George really suports us and our ideas- he'll look at something and say 'that's great- just not in MY movie'"- that doesn't sound very supportive to me. That sounds more like 'quit dicking around and do what I told you or you're out'.

Dunno, maybe its just me.

A guy I used to work with worked for ILM before he worked with me, and he pretty much confirmed what Greencapt said. It's the main reason he cited for leaving ILM and coming to England. For him, sonic the hedgehog Yoda was the final straw. -apparently lots of the Post Production crew were like 'what the hell is this? This isn't Yoda' but the atmosphere was 'do it, or get out'.

War does not make one great.

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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Son. of. a. bitch. That would have worked MUCH better having Obi-Wan to be the main Jedi instead of treating him as the secondary character he is in TPM.


*laughs*
Finally! A change that Lucas made that you don't try to come up with some kind of defense for.

I was just thinking mabye that explains this still I've seen. Mabye, just mabye that's how it was going to be but, it got dropped early on...

<edit> Oh, and, mabye the close-ups were trying to hide the fact that Obiwan was no longer in the scene. Like how he took Owen out of this scene.

I just realized I derailed this thread a bit... Sorry about that... </edit>

http://twister111.tumblr.com
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Well, I've never given a defense for greedo shooting first... because I have none. I don't like that change either.
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This reminds me of reading about George's first intentions to have Obiwan the "main" jedi in TPM for the first act. Then, he meets Quigon at Coruscant I read it here. For a guy that professes that he wants his "original vision" to be seen he does change it a lot.



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That idea still steams me about having ObiWan as a secondary character in TPM. Making QuiGon the lead makes the movie all the more irrelevant in the grand scheme of the saga. If Lucas atleast did the supposed force ghost scene with QuiGon in ROTS, it would atleast give some relevance to his character, that he was the was the one who figured out the trick, but we get one stinkin line from Yoda, so Lucas could check off another OT tie-in in the last 20 minutes of the movie.

Kenobi should have found Anakin, and their relationship should have been central to Episode I, thus you wouldn't have to keep showing their friendship in AOTC & ROTS just so people know they are pals. Every relationship should have been set up in TPM, that would give two movies to advance the plot, instead Lucas has main characters QuiGon & Jar Jar who take up major screen time in the movie, and Anakin/Kenobi are secondary until AOTC.
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So, to get back to the original point of this thread, do you think that the original version of the turn was handled better than the current version? With Anakin standing there? I'm not entirely sure myself, since I don't know all the details. I can forsee a way that it could have made his turn a bit more convincing, having him already confused enough to stay with Palpatine rather than run off. But that, too, would depend on other scenes in the movie that would set up the reason why he stayed behind.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
So, to get back to the original point of this thread, do you think that the original version of the turn was handled better than the current version? With Anakin standing there? I'm not entirely sure myself, since I don't know all the details. I can forsee a way that it could have made his turn a bit more convincing, having him already confused enough to stay with Palpatine rather than run off. But that, too, would depend on other scenes in the movie that would set up the reason why he stayed behind.


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Would it have worked better, who knows, but my whole point is this whole scene should have been concrete from the start, or atleast pretty much set in stone on what happens. It is the reason for the whole PT, and Lucas is still wishy washy on how it occurs? It really makes you wonder if he really was making this stuff as he goes.
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Well, considering how hard to believe it ended up being in the final cut, I'm really not at all surprised that he hadn't planned it out until the very last minute.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: greencapt<The other thing that struck me was the fear in the faces of the employees when Lucas was around them. They all look petrified to me.



Oh my God!! You too? I saw and thought the EXACT SAME THING when I was watching that documentary! Especially in the art room where George walks in and is looking at all the Mustifar artwork sheets, you can see the mousey little artists standing in a cluster thinking, "Please God, don't let him rip me a new one..."


All I know is that the "turn" scene can only improve from what was shown in the movie. "What have I done!? [pause] Okay, I'll do anything you ask."

What the living f*ck?! I waited god knows how many years to see that?

And Qui-Gon is totally useless. I've often wondered about that whole Obi-Wan/Maul encounter in that one picture.

Has GL ever seen the original movies? He must have seen it like this:
"...there you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me. Well, actually he instructed this guy named Dooku, who then taught this other guy named Qui-Gon, whom you don't know either, but anyway he then (that Qui-Gon guy) taught me. So yeah. Shut up Luke, just go see Yoda."

Obi-Wan: "When I first met your father, he was already a great pilot, but I was amazed at how strongly the force was with him. Well actually, I hated him and thought we were just picking up another pathetic lifeform, but Qui-Gon you know - that one guy, really wanted to bring him along. Anyway, I took it upon myself to train him as Jedi. Well, again, actually, Qui-Gon wanted to train him but he died, so I was kind of forced to because I promised I would considering the fact that he asked me to as he died in my arms..."

Luke: "Um, Ben...?"

Obi-Wan: "Shut up, Luke. Anyway, I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. Which doesn't make a lot of sense, because he wasn't even my teacher to begin with, but there you go."


Tarkin: "Their fire has gone out in the universe. You my friend is all that is left of their religion. Oh yeah, that and the Emperor...."
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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^^^Those were great. Funny as hell. I could almost imagine them being in the movie, they add like a realistic "well goddamnit, you know what I mean" thing to those lines.

Anyways, I've never seen that Obi-wan/Maul desert thing before but it could be photoshopped...just a thought.

Also, like most everyone else, I always thought the turn scene was completely awkward and messy. The book does it a little better but it makes so much sense as to why it was like that considering the big change it went through. That son of bitch GL should have had that scene in his "visionary, not making it up as he goes" from the very beginning of writing ROTS. It was important.....too important, to just change whenever. If he thought people were gonna be confused then he should have worked the persuasion by Palp better (again, like the book), giving Anakin a clear obvious reason to stand by Palpatine without fail. The movie makes it seem like he made a quick decision to suddenly be bad and then acted like the only choice he had left was to join Palp, then later makes it seem like it was something he had been sure about for longer than that. It should have been that he thought out his decision and was slowly persuaded (seduced as the OT would have it) and finally determined that the only way to keep Padme alive was to stay by Palps side even when they came to arrest him. The way the old version of this scene seemed to want to play out was exactly as I think it should hace been.

Then again, i guess if he was already mostly persuaded to have made the choice to stick by Palp at his arrest (which I think was very soon after Anakin had told Mace about Palp being the Sith) then the Jedi would maybe have had to find out he was the Sith some other way....adding maybe another story line that might have sucked. But hey, we will never ever ever ever ever ever.....know.

Hey look, a bear!

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Staying with Palpatine might have made it seem more realistic. I mean, I know the name of the game was conflict, but the way it worked now just made him seem too wishy-washy, and when he made his final decision, it was without any basis. So Palpatine spends some time in the movie trying to get Anakin to trust him, and it pretty much works for some apparent reason until he admits he's a Sith. Then Anakin does a complete 180, "I have to do the right thing, and you have just been manipulating me," understanding of the situation. Big hero man, he stupidly leaves Palpatine alone after telling him, "I'm bringing my buddies to take you down," to go and bring in the calvary, complete with his idiotically funny line, "I've just learned a terrible truth. I think the Chancellor is a Sith Lord." He even volunteers to go with them and help take him down. But Mace says no, so then Anakin thinks, "Darn, I'm an idiot. I should go and stop this." I'm not qute sure what it was he was trying to accomplish initially when he waltzes back into Palpatine's office, but he ends up screwing himself for no apparent reason and then realizing all along he was meant to be evil with that extremely evil line, "What have I done?!"

I think any change from that, aside from the two of them dressing up like clowns and making balloon animals could have been an improvement from what we got.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: JarHead413
^^^Those were great. Funny as hell. I could almost imagine them being in the movie, they add like a realistic "well goddamnit, you know what I mean" thing to those lines.

Anyways, I've never seen that Obi-wan/Maul desert thing before but it could be photoshopped...just a thought.


That picture of Obi-Wan and Maul first appered in Vanaty Fair back in 98 or 99. I think the picture was just a fancy publicity shot, but it could also have been a cut scene, who knows? It was a whole article about Episode 1, and I can tell you man, I was so excited when I saw that picture. I was like "Oh man this is going to be so good". Then the teaser trailer came out and that was it. It was like waiting for Jedi all over again.

Shame about the end result. If only ol' George had listend with a little more passion to his freinds and colleges, we could have ended up with a story along those above articles lines.

http://www.facebook.com/DirtyWookie

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Originally posted by: Invader Jenny

Tarkin: "Their fire has gone out in the universe. You my friend is all that is left of their religion. Oh yeah, that and the Emperor...."


Dammit Jenny, that's another plot hole I never noticed that will now bug me for every viewing of ANH from now on!

BUT, that was in the OT all along, so ya can't blame that one on the PT alone!
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Well, actually, no. Tarkin was talking about the Jedi, and the Emperor was very much not a Jedi.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Sometimes I wonder about that George. The funny thing is he claims to have this grand "vision" yet the truth seems to be exactly the opposite. He seems indecisive and makes change after change.

George Lucas was seduced by the dark side. The OOT ceased to exist in his mind and became the Special Editions...." "They're more maching now than movies. Twisted and evil."
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he was talking about force user and the emperor is a force user so no plothole
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Originally posted by: greencapt
The other thing that struck me was the fear in the faces of the employees when Lucas was around them. They all look petrified to me. And the guy who says "George really suports us and our ideas- he'll look at something and say 'that's great- just not in MY movie'"- that doesn't sound very supportive to me. That sounds more like 'quit dicking around and do what I told you or you're out'..



Sounds similar to the way the Imperial officers feel when Vader is nearby. Hehe.
George Lucas was seduced by the dark side. The OOT ceased to exist in his mind and became the Special Editions...." "They're more maching now than movies. Twisted and evil."
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Originally posted by: Darth Richard
he was talking about force user and the emperor is a force user so no plothole


Actually, he was talking about Jedi. If he had simply been talking about Force-users, then there would have been a plothole. So... no plothole.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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i cant believe the turning point of all the prequels and lucas wasnt sure about it, give me a break
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Originally posted by: battlewars
i cant believe the turning point of all the prequels and lucas wasnt sure about it, give me a break


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That sums it up Battlewars! This scene and the duel and the building of Vader should have been stamped in his mind in 1977, they should have been the backbone of the story, and everything else were written after that.
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Originally posted by: CO

That sums it up Battlewars! This scene and the duel and the building of Vader should have been stamped in his mind in 1977, they should have been the backbone of the story, and everything else were written after that.


That is IF the story was ever about Vader/Anakin in the first place. Which the logical among us know it wasn't. Vader was, as said before, just a bad-ass bad guy.