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You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
Do the Jedi steal children?
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Makes you wonder what they actually did to those who weren't "identified earlier". D;
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Check out this official "news article" from the HoloNet News site:
http://www.holonetnews.com/52/jediwatch/13418_1.html
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I believe it's also discussed in a novel somewhere. Essentially, they don't usually train anybody older than a year or so. 6 months and younger are preferred.
I did read an interesting message on this over at TFN years ago before AOTC came out. Since Jedi aren't allowed to marry or have children, the "Jedi gene" should die out. If Lucas had left it as an ability that could be learned, everything would be fine. But since it seems to be genetic, Jedi would basically make themselves go extinct since there's no way to pass on that genetic code.
You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.
Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: Erikstormtrooper
I think they require parental consent, but will take a child they believe to be orphaned.
I think they require parental consent, but will take a child they believe to be orphaned.
I wonder how many parents had convenient accidents after their children were "identified."
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
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"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
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First, it seemed to me the Jedi child thing was based on a throw away line from Yoda in Empire. I took it from that as Yoda baiting Luke to try harder. The PT says I was wrong. So whatever.
Now even if it was intended from the begining by the great and powerful Lucas, then I see this whole Jedi taking children under their care as a sub conscience mirror to his own life as a father by adopting his kids.
George has made a saga that in affect says to kids --to his kids, --that the greatest, most trusted guardians of the galaxy are the ones who don't have natural parents raising them. And the only way to be great Jedi is if you're adopted by the Jedi, --or the Lucas,--then you too can change the ways of the simple minded.
And let's not forget that one of the kids had a cameo as a Jedi youngling.
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Where were you in '77?
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Originally posted by: SilverWook
It wasn't thought all the way through, and doesn't mesh with the OT as a result. Had the films been made in chronlogical order, it would have made more sense for Ben to raise (and train) Luke by himself on Tatooine instead of waiting twenty years in the shadows, and letting Luke bond with Owen and Beru. You don't put Luke in the same scenario as the padawan whose training you botched! Yoda could have raised Leia on Dagobah instead of putting her in potential peril of crossing paths with Palpatine and Vader too soon. Not that either one ever picks up Force vibes from the young Senator from Alderaan.
It wasn't thought all the way through, and doesn't mesh with the OT as a result. Had the films been made in chronlogical order, it would have made more sense for Ben to raise (and train) Luke by himself on Tatooine instead of waiting twenty years in the shadows, and letting Luke bond with Owen and Beru. You don't put Luke in the same scenario as the padawan whose training you botched! Yoda could have raised Leia on Dagobah instead of putting her in potential peril of crossing paths with Palpatine and Vader too soon. Not that either one ever picks up Force vibes from the young Senator from Alderaan.
Those are really good points. We all know that George Lucas had an extremely different idea for Jedi training back when he wrote the original Star Wars. I wish he could have remained faithful to a lot of his ideas instead of tossing them aside so casually. While sometimes a dramatically new and fresh idea can be very compelling (like Darth Vader being Luke's father), going too far with that sort of approach can make a work of art too divided and messy. An artist needs to be faithful to his original vision or risk losing all focus. The irony is how George has been claiming to support his original vision as an excuse for his work to destroy the actual, cohesive vision that is realized in the films.
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
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Originally posted by: lordjedi
One of the comics pretty much explained this. When they find a baby, and I mean an infant, that is strong in the Force, they convince the parents that the child will probably lead a better life among the Jedi. The children are not taken by force.
One of the comics pretty much explained this. When they find a baby, and I mean an infant, that is strong in the Force, they convince the parents that the child will probably lead a better life among the Jedi. The children are not taken by force.
When you're a state-sanctioned warrior monk with a weapon at his side, trained in "aggressive negotiation," and capable of influencing people's minds ... yeah, they pretty much used force, or the implicit threat of force, to take those children*. Or they just paid the parents off. Either way, the idea of toddlers being raised by cloistered fanatical religious warriors is almost as offensive to me as Jar-Jar Binks.
Meesa rewrite Jedi training as thinly-veiled allegory of Taliban-funded madrassahs? Uh-oh!
* In addition to the obvious threat of physical violence, we also see the potential for constructive force (misuse of authority, pressure), Force-based powers of manipulation and deceit, or even outright kidnapping. Were such actions sanctioned by the Coruscanti Jedi cult and done for the "greater good," individual Jedi kidnappers would probably view their actions as service to the "Light Side" of the Force. Given the massive disparity in power between the Galactic citizen and the Jedi Order, as well as the unresponsiveness of the Galactic government, it is likely that the Jedi acquired their child-slaves with near impunity.
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
Meesa rewrite Jedi training as thinly-veiled allegory of Taliban-funded madrassahs? Uh-oh!
ROFL, Scruffy! Perfect!
Originally posted by: C3PX
I wish ol George would go the extra mile and remake episodes IV, V and VI with all new actors, special effect, cheesy dialogue and all, and continue the story and just disregard the OT.
Meesa rewrite Jedi training as thinly-veiled allegory of Taliban-funded madrassahs? Uh-oh!
ROFL, Scruffy! Perfect!
Originally posted by: C3PX
I wish ol George would go the extra mile and remake episodes IV, V and VI with all new actors, special effect, cheesy dialogue and all, and continue the story and just disregard the OT.
I don't think we're that lucky and I don't think the OT is either.
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
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Originally posted by: C3PX
I love the faith we have in mankind. And by mankind of course I mean the good guys in a work of science fiction. Must we add a darkside to everything?
I love the faith we have in mankind. And by mankind of course I mean the good guys in a work of science fiction. Must we add a darkside to everything?
Ask George. He's the one who decided the Jedi were a cultic monastic order whose members took children from their parents[a], trained them to use weapons from a very young age, denied them human relationships with other people[c], ran their organization on the basis of a faulty interpretation of a prophecy[d], sought to spy on and assassinate political leaders without due process[e], denied the sapience of other beings that developed culture and used human language[f], and generally made fools of themselves.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were trained from very young childhood, and they turned out okay, except for misreading the prophecy and creating Vader. Anakin was trained from childhood, and he ended up slaughtering the Jedi and enabling the murder of billions under the Empire. Luke was trained as an adult, and he managed to convert Darth Vader to the Light Side -- something the remaining Jedi Masters believed could not be done -- and withstood the temptations of Darth Sidious.
I ask you, what moral do you draw from this? The moral I draw from this -- and I give George Lucas all due credit putting something of meaning in the PT that actually makes the OT look better -- the moral I draw is that the Jedi failed because they denied young children the freedom of conscience/thought and militarized them at a young age. Luke flourished as a Jedi because he had developed a solid moral and ethical footing before embarking, of his own free and informed will, on the Jedi path. Although I have not studied Mr. Lucas's politics, I believe he is generally liberal, and the moral I have derived is in accord with liberal principles, as well as certain left-wing beliefs about the roles of military and religion in contemporary American society.
[a] TPM
AOTC
[c] AOTC
[d] PT, passim
[e] ROTS
[f] TPM
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
Ask George. He's the one who decided the Jedi were a cultic monastic order whose members took children from their parents[a], trained them to use weapons from a very young age, denied them human relationships with other people[c], ran their organization on the basis of a faulty interpretation of a prophecy[d], sought to spy on and assassinate political leaders without due process[e], denied the sapience of other beings that developed culture and used human language[f], and generally made fools of themselves.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were trained from very young childhood, and they turned out okay, except for misreading the prophecy and creating Vader. Anakin was trained from childhood, and he ended up slaughtering the Jedi and enabling the murder of billions under the Empire. Luke was trained as an adult, and he managed to convert Darth Vader to the Light Side -- something the remaining Jedi Masters believed could not be done -- and withstood the temptations of Darth Sidious.
I ask you, what moral do you draw from this? The moral I draw from this -- and I give George Lucas all due credit putting something of meaning in the PT that actually makes the OT look better -- the moral I draw is that the Jedi failed because they denied young children the freedom of conscience/thought and militarized them at a young age. Luke flourished as a Jedi because he had developed a solid moral and ethical footing before embarking, of his own free and informed will, on the Jedi path. Although I have not studied Mr. Lucas's politics, I believe he is generally liberal, and the moral I have derived is in accord with liberal principles, as well as certain left-wing beliefs about the roles of military and religion in contemporary American society.
[a] TPM
AOTC
[c] AOTC
[d] PT, passim
[e] ROTS
[f] TPM
Originally posted by: C3PX
I love the faith we have in mankind. And by mankind of course I mean the good guys in a work of science fiction. Must we add a darkside to everything?
I love the faith we have in mankind. And by mankind of course I mean the good guys in a work of science fiction. Must we add a darkside to everything?
Ask George. He's the one who decided the Jedi were a cultic monastic order whose members took children from their parents[a], trained them to use weapons from a very young age, denied them human relationships with other people[c], ran their organization on the basis of a faulty interpretation of a prophecy[d], sought to spy on and assassinate political leaders without due process[e], denied the sapience of other beings that developed culture and used human language[f], and generally made fools of themselves.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were trained from very young childhood, and they turned out okay, except for misreading the prophecy and creating Vader. Anakin was trained from childhood, and he ended up slaughtering the Jedi and enabling the murder of billions under the Empire. Luke was trained as an adult, and he managed to convert Darth Vader to the Light Side -- something the remaining Jedi Masters believed could not be done -- and withstood the temptations of Darth Sidious.
I ask you, what moral do you draw from this? The moral I draw from this -- and I give George Lucas all due credit putting something of meaning in the PT that actually makes the OT look better -- the moral I draw is that the Jedi failed because they denied young children the freedom of conscience/thought and militarized them at a young age. Luke flourished as a Jedi because he had developed a solid moral and ethical footing before embarking, of his own free and informed will, on the Jedi path. Although I have not studied Mr. Lucas's politics, I believe he is generally liberal, and the moral I have derived is in accord with liberal principles, as well as certain left-wing beliefs about the roles of military and religion in contemporary American society.
[a] TPM
AOTC
[c] AOTC
[d] PT, passim
[e] ROTS
[f] TPM
*clears throat* Dude, WTF? I think you're projecting a little bit here. Let's look at it a little differently. For thousands of years this went on with no trouble. Then, a whiney little brat that couldn't stand authority decided to break the rules because he was the "chosen one" (make no mistake, he was the chosen one, I sure didn't see Luke killing Palpatine).
When did Luke embark on his Jedi training with an informed will. "Darth Vader killed your father, now we need to train you in the ways of the Jedi so you can bring him to justice." Two movies later "Oh, well, I meant that your father became Darth Vader, not that he really killed him". That doesn't really sound informed to me. Sure, he went about it of his own free will, but only because he had nothing else keeping him where he was, what with Beru and Owen being dead.
Qui-Gon didn't misread the prophecy. The prophecy was plain and simple "One will be born of the Force that will bring balance to the Force" What it doesn't say is how that individual will bring about the balance. If anything, in his rush to assume he'd found the one (he had) he didn't think to ask that question. Sure enough, Anakin brought balance, but he did a lot of bad stuff in between.
Spying on and assassinating government officials without due process? Did we watch the same movie? Helloooooo! The Emperor was evil dark side incarnate. He deserved to die without "due process". Mace said it perfectly "He owns the courts". To bad the spoiled brat wouldn't listen.
How does any of this jive with far left tendencies? Isn't the left all about reducing the military and keeping religion out of everything except churches, mosques, etc?
Seriously, from the comics we know that they go to families, talk to them, and convince them that their child would be better off raised as a Jedi. They don't use force and they don't use mind tricks. There's no guess work here.
The main reason Luke allows those types of things to go on has less to do with Anakin and much more to do with Kyp Durron. You see, the PT didn't exist when those books were written and most of the records were destroyed during the Jedi purge. So Luke went with what he knew. When Kyp went all dark side, Luke decided that isolation was probably not a bad thing. In fact, since he himself got through his training with emotional attachments, he thought it would be a good thing. So you see, that really had nothing to do with what happened in the PT and a whole lot to do with what happened in the OT.
To answer the question at the beginning of the post, I don't draw any morals from the PT because they're crap and have such a huge mishmash of ideas that it's impossible to draw anything from them.
And FYI, the ability to speak does not in fact make one intelligent
You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.
Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Though I will say that I don't believe George was purposely formulating that lesson to the detail that Scruffy describes. I think he had some basics ideas as he wrote out the story and sort of ended up with some basic lessons that work in accordance with his currently-adopted, anti-war, supposedly-Buddhist beliefs. Most of the particulars that Scuffy mentioned were therefore unintentional.
"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
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Originally posted by: 20th Century Mark
And if so, do they go to the parents and say, "Sorry, we have to take him. The force is strong with him. Say good-buy".
And if so, do they go to the parents and say, "Sorry, we have to take him. The force is strong with him. Say good-buy".
Taking a child for free probably is indeed considered a good buy.
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Originally posted by: Forbidden Zone
Now even if it was intended from the begining by the great and powerful Lucas, then I see this whole Jedi taking children under their care as a sub conscience mirror to his own life as a father by adopting his kids.
George has made a saga that in affect says to kids --to his kids, --that the greatest, most trusted guardians of the galaxy are the ones who don't have natural parents raising them. And the only way to be great Jedi is if you're adopted by the Jedi, --or the Lucas,--then you too can change the ways of the simple minded.
Now even if it was intended from the begining by the great and powerful Lucas, then I see this whole Jedi taking children under their care as a sub conscience mirror to his own life as a father by adopting his kids.
George has made a saga that in affect says to kids --to his kids, --that the greatest, most trusted guardians of the galaxy are the ones who don't have natural parents raising them. And the only way to be great Jedi is if you're adopted by the Jedi, --or the Lucas,--then you too can change the ways of the simple minded.
This, to me if it were true, would be the single sickest message that Lucas has ever sent. It makes you wonder if he really meant it that way or not. Since it's only a theory, all we can ever do is speculate.
You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.
Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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It wouldn't even require that. Just think - people know what the Jedi are capable of. Would you, as a non-Force-user, feel comfortable trying to discipline a young Force user? Just think of what could happen to you. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those parents were throwing their children at the Jedi!
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>
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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Taking a child for free probably is indeed considered a good buy.
Originally posted by: 20th Century Mark
And if so, do they go to the parents and say, "Sorry, we have to take him. The force is strong with him. Say good-buy".
And if so, do they go to the parents and say, "Sorry, we have to take him. The force is strong with him. Say good-buy".
Taking a child for free probably is indeed considered a good buy.
LOL That made me laugh!
Maybe the Jedi "produce" there own babies and keep the "strong" ones.
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Maybe the Jedi "produce" there own babies and keep the "strong" ones.
If anyone turns this into a "Palpatine created Anakin" debate, I'll kill'em!
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>
<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>
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"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
If anyone turns this into a "Palpatine created Anakin" debate, I'll kill'em!
If anyone turns this into a "Palpatine created Anakin" debate, I'll kill'em!
*cackle* "Goooood, use your agressive feelings. Let the hate flow through you." >; )
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