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Did Lucas forget that Obi Wan served Bail Organa in the Clone Wars ? — Page 3

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My opinion of the Plinkett videos is that they’ve been very harmful in the long run. Obviously done as comedy sketches with the intent of tongue-in-cheek criticism on top, they were mostly taken at face value as de facto deconstructions of the PT movies and essential viewings to understanding “why they suck”, plaguing the internet’s idea of criticism and of the Prequels in the process. There was a spike in aggressivenes overall at the time those were coming out and discussing the PT and/or the videos was very unpleasant in general. The live-action bits with Plinkett are also of extremely poor taste, way worse than anything Lucas has ever dreamed of doing.

But I’m not really a fan of RLM at all. Stoklasa has been on record saying George is the luckiest person in show-biz, second only to Ringo Starr, and that’s easily among the dumbest things I’ve ever heard, so I usually just ignore those kinds of guys. But it is a fact that his Plinkett reviews helped keep the fire of the original Fandom Menace burning, you know, the one that made both Ahmed Best and Jake Lloyd depressed.

But characters like this Rick Worley, defenders of sexual abusers and the likes, are somehow even worse. Harassing actresses like Daisy Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran off of social media and engaging in extremely toxic behavior towards anyone who disagrees with them… perhaps getting back at the toxic and hateful fans à la Plinkett, but in the end just employing the same disgusting tactics.

Two sides of the same, very ugly coin, that is the Star Wars fan base.

Back to the topic at hand, I think Lucas didn’t forget this at all. This was just of way too small importance when it came to the PT. He probably didn’t want to sacrifice whatever story he was telling just to fit in slightly better with a line from a character from a previous movie. This happens all the time whenever talking about unplanned non-linear storytelling, it’s nothing new and it’s no big deal. Always baffles me how everyone gets upset at small stuff like this.

Also, you know, he was in the military, serving the Senate, so technically he did serve Senator Organa 😄

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Yeah, that’s some fair points right there. I generally only watch RedLetterMedia’s Best of the Worst show, the one made up of watching a bunch of B-movie shlock. I can’t stand their opinions on modern movies, especially Mike’s. He’s like a vacuum of joy.

Would it be unwise to link the more undesirable elements of Plinkett videos to the rise of disgusting channels like CinemaSins or Mauler? Because I can see that lineage. I mostly brought them up earlier because I agreed with some of their more basic points but not the bulk of the “weird” stuff (the edginess is so 2009 it hurts). One can also blame James Rolfe and Doug Walker for things like CinemamSins and Mauler, especially Doug Walker (Doug’s The Wall video is a litmus test for cringe).

I apologize if I came across as a troll or an instigator, but I felt like this discussion was worth having here. Anyway, back to the point.

As a manga/anime fan, I’m fine when an author forgets some relatively small detail they wrote over 20+ years prior. One obsessing over little details like that misses the forest for the trees. It’s the kind of attitude held by the people who lose sleep over slight in-discrepancies in fan wiki articles.

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I’ve only watched bits of the videos you attached and really have no desire to watch anything else they make. I mean if they discussed something I was interested in and were having an intellectual discussion over it I’d be very open minded to giving them a chance but they have opinions. That’s all these channels and people you mention have. Opinions. They may make points and have opinions I agree with sometimes but the difference is they aren’t film critics. They’re people with opinions who are sharing what they think of something without context to back it up. Context is really a key ingredient I think in understanding any type of art or anything for that matter and is lacking in our culture. Everyone can have an opinion but that doesn’t mean they’re right. However if you’re using factual evidence to try to understand something I’m more open to hearing what you have to say as I can tell you really care about what it is you’re talking about.

It’s okay. We can’t agree on everything. I wouldn’t ever want us to but I do encourage you to try giving Rick Worley a chance. I don’t think he’ll change your mind on the Prequels as you seem pretty set on your opinion on them as I am but I do think he’d help you see where I’m coming from with everything I’ve been saying lately. It’s worth a try at least I feel as it may encourage you to see another point of view to something you didn’t consider. He really researches what he shares instead of making assumptions off of what others tell him to think. He goes against the grain sometimes as evident by those who enjoy his takes and those that brush it off as whatever seems relevant to what he’s sharing.

Absolutely that can definitely be an issue. No story is without flaws or things we can fall back on and say personally we wish could’ve been done slightly better in some way, especially as we grow older and become more narrow focused but it’s not my story to tell. So I respect the storyteller telling the story as long as I feel they’re respecting me. George always respected me personally and for that I’m grateful. Others will feel differently but I don’t think the filmmaker is obligated to give you what you want. They have a vision if they’re working as an auteur or to a lesser degree been hired. You can choose if you want to watch it or not.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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I’ve seen bits of Worley’s material and he strikes me as somebody who wanted to cash in on “Every Frame a Painting,” but with several extra layers of pretentiousness and a predilection to tell instead of show. He has more in common with Pop Culture Detective or Mauler than any real critic.

It’s nice that he can express himself like that, but to me he’s no better than what Plinkett did. He too is giving his “opinions” with a college essay level of critique. It’s a Leo Bloom-like attachment to the author and refusal to consider what the contemporary world around the author and revisionist scholars perceived the work to be. Either that or it’s a less successful version of what Peter Bogdanvich did with Orson Welles, much to Pauline Kael’s dismay.

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He’s not for everyone but he’s only viewing things through a visual literacy lenses and of understanding why and even how George made the decisions he did versus what George was thinking as many do. Context is key. He cites Pauline Kael where neccessary. He has a well rounded view of things but naturally strives to portray the artist as he is one too. He writes and illustrates comics. He’s not the typical YouTube reviewer in that regard. He’s merely giving an artist’s prospective and I think that holds merit even if he can come across as all knowing sometimes.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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So, mea culpa. I got Rick Worley confused with So Uncivilized (as in, I thought Rick Worley was SU’s real name). My mistake. I’ve seen some of So Uncivilized’s work and would compare it to a more pretentious “Every Frame a Painting.”

I am curious about Worley’s attempts to explain the ending to The Sopranos, as it’s one of my favorite deconstructions of a fiction genre (mafia/mob cinema). I tend to think the ending of the show is fairly ancillary to the points Chase was trying to make about Tony, his masculinity (the Tony/Dr Melfi dynamic) and the familiar/external power structures in his life. For me, the biggest finale moment of the show would be Melfi and Tony’s final exchange.

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How can someone not be a film critic? It’s not like there’s any sort of laudable criteria for having an opinion on art.

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BedeHistory731 said:

So, mea culpa. I got Rick Worley confused with So Uncivilized (as in, I thought Rick Worley was SU’s real name). My mistake. I’ve seen some of So Uncivilized’s work and would compare it to a more pretentious “Every Frame a Painting.”

I am curious about Worley’s attempts to explain the ending to The Sopranos

Welp, haha, I enjoy So Uncivilized personally but that’s mainly because I find him looking at things from the lenses of an artist like Rick does. He’s a professional editor. However he just as often has his own opinions on certain things but I find he has the right intentions of trying to get to the roots of asking why with something. The balance of personal tastes and artist’s intentions really come across well in his Jar Jar video.

I’ve not watched The Sopranos so I had to stop myself from reading all of your post. It looks like a great show. I’ll probably watch it at some point.

thebluefrog said:

How can someone not be a film critic? It’s not like there’s any sort of laudable criteria for having an opinion on art.

Anyone can be a film critic in a way but there’s a key difference between having an opinion on something versus being able to read it. Like any type of literacy there’s a grammar and rules to how you’re supposed to analyse something. This is different from personal tastes. Film like literature is an artistic medium. Our culture isn’t taught though to read film as we are literature. I find in turn you get people believing their opinion is the consensus and the only valid points are when someone agrees with them. In reality there’s a reason things are the way they are and the artist thought as they did. It might not be to your personal taste but that doesn’t make it bad by default. It’s the grey line between subjective and objective.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

  • Obi-Wan doesn’t remember owning a droid, despite having owned a droid for at least 3 years
  1. During the Clone Wars he has a very low opinion of droids and thinks they can be easily replaced.

Considering a droid replaceable and never owning a droid are different things

Not necessarily. He could have such a low opinion that he couldn’t care less for remembering their names or having one.

That’s a really insane stretch man

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

Or you know trying to understand why George made the choices he did. Sometimes it could be perceived as stretching with certain issues like Obi-Wan possibly experiencing PTSD but it’s only because we don’t know exactly what he was thinking with x and y sometimes. Star Wars is just as much participation of the audience as it is George’s answers. It’s part of the experience with Star Wars that you can have your own explanation of the way things are until George gives concrete details that adds to the mythos he already created with say the Whills and Midi-Chlorians connection to the Force. It’s almost certainly all been there in some shape or form from the very beginning but it took time for the story to develop and evolved a lot in the span of nearly forty years. He always did what served the story first. It’s like The Clone Wars eventually giving a probable definitive answer to why Obi-Wan doesn’t really remember ever owning a droid. He had a low opinion of them. It’s probably not what fans envisioned or some wanted the answer to be but that’s his explanation and at the end of the day that’s where fan explanation stops and you understand author’s intention. You should ask how and why instead of what. Episodes I-VI, The Clone Wars series, and his Sequel Trilogy treatments are the definitive final word in what is and isn’t Star Wars. Anything that comes afterwards is fanfiction. We can’t be spoon fed every little detail or even know everything. Some things must remain a mystery for audience and creative alike. There’s no fun in knowing everything and he recongised that as all the greats do. These are his stories and at the end of the day that’s Star Wars for better or worse depending on who you ask. Now it’s run though by a corporation who pays fanfiction writers. Some of it might actually be good but it’s unlikely it will ever be consistently good or in line with George’s values.

That is a lot of words attempting to justify mental gymnastics and stretches, that somehow veers off into something else which has nothing to do with what I posted. Like many other fans I am only interested in what happens on screen, and this is the subject of the Opening Post of thread between the Original and Prequel Trilogies.

I am not interested in George’s thoughts, his intentions, or what happened outside the two trilogies many years later. Or what you think is his definitive Sequel Trilogy treatments are. Nor your thoughts on modern-era Star Wars or other grandstanding in your post. Just what happened onscreen. I know you do not like or agree with this because of your posts to the last person who stated a similar viewpoint resulted in you apologising for insulting them when they were only interested in what occurred on screen.

Your writing style and prowse are very good, interesting to read and you are obviously passionate about what you believe. I enjoy your posts, even the twists and interpretations you put into them after others here prove you are mistaken with facts.

Yet many people are only interested what happens on screen. If many fans find some of the attempts to explain the discrepancies between the two Trilogies onscreen to be an insane stretch, or to be yet more of the mental gymnastics provided for other discrepancies between the two trilogies, then it likely means they are still waiting or looking for a better answer for these discrepancies than has been provided so far.

Being pointed to looking at George’s intentions, additional materials and content, or grandstanding on the “definitive final word in what is and isn’t Star Wars”, or “George’s values” just doesn’t cut it.

It’s all right there on the screen and not just what I’ve learned years later. Everything that is essential to understanding the films is within them. The problem I find is the unwillingness of some outright refusing to look pass their own personal viewpoints and attachments to the series. Isn’t it just as good to challenge ourselves than merely looking at things only how we want to see it? I don’t find there’s as many plotholes between the two trilogies as many want to claim there to be. Just as I think there’s things the audience can think are important but aren’t actually in the grand scheme of things to being needed to understand the greater whole. There’s plenty of things that can happen off screen. I don’t blame people themselves despite how I may have come across but more so how they’re taught. A very important skill I find is visual literacy but it’s not taught in our culture. The most glaring example where this is an issue that I can think of within Star Wars is the fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan on Mustafar. Some fans will complain it runs too long, it’s all spectacle and no substance, and that Obi-Wan never backups later claims that he once thought as Luke did. The thing is it’s not about runtime as if a sequence is meant to go on, let it. Secondly when we see the volcano erupt it represents Anakin’s inner turmoil erupting and equally when we see him and Obi-Wan swinging with the ropes it could be seen as representing the blurring reality of the situation as not long after Obi-Wan says he has failed Anakin. Most importantly Obi-Wan fights nearly the entire fight in defence. He’s looking to protect and bring Anakin back the entire time. Unfortunately many tend to miss these nuances because they’re not taught to look out for them. Ironic people claim George can’t tell his stories without some melodramatic dialogue but here he is illustrating his skills and prose as a visual filmmaker and communicator.

This is no different to what you have already posted in the Prequel Trilogy thread. And it certainly is not “there on screen”, as people wouldn’t be still talking about the large number of discrepancies between the two Trilogies some 20 years later.

You may say it is “unwillingness of some outright refusing to look pass their own personal viewpoints” - but they are actually discussing these discrepancies still. The willingness and openness is there. Because you do not like or agree with what they think (some call it mental gymnastics and stretches) this does not mean they are unwilling to look for answers. Or have already looked for “deeper dives” as others put it on here, but have still not found answers to their sanctification.

“Visual literacy” also has no impact on explaining the many discrepancies between the two trilogies, no matter how many times you mention this, or want others to give the films more consideration than you assume they have not already given. Perhaps you should start a thread on “visual literacy” instead of derailing other threads with this off-topic deflection away from what others are discussing.

Your example of “Anakin’s inner turmoil erupting and equally when we see him and Obi-Wan swinging with the ropes it could be seen as representing the blurring reality of the situation as not long after Obi-Wan says he has failed Anakin.” is, as you state, “a could be”, an interpretation. It also could not be. It is also nothing to do with the discrepancies being discussed.

“He’s looking to protect and bring Anakin back the entire time.” Such exaggeration is not what occurred on screen. Yes, Kenobi is trying to make see Anakin the error of his ways, to bring him to the light, but your claim is not true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onRnL6MBunU - at 1 minute and 28 seconds into the video - Kenobi brings his blade down on Anakin and would have killed him if not for Anakin’s quick defensive move. There may be other examples too.
 

“Did Lucas forget that Obi Wan served Bail Organa in the Clone Wars?” Yes, he did. As many others have stated. Is it a big thing? This depends on your point of view and everyone’s opinion is different, maybe. To me this is a small discrepancy when compared to others. As another example of the large number of strange, needless or lazy discrepancies between the trilogies? Yes. But some people may not be concerned by the discrepancies and still dislike the Prequels from what they saw onscreen. All different opinions, all valid. Not lazy or showing “unwillingness of some outright refusing to look pass their own personal viewpoints” because they do not agree with yours.

It is disappointing to see you think so low of peoples’ opinions when they do align with yours. And that you insult others and dismiss the opinions of those who are critical of George and Prequels in this manner. But at least your opinion on people who think differently is clear.

Explanations, analysis, and shortcomings of the Star Wars Ring Theory : Plinkett & HelloGreedo | The Emptiness of George Lucas’ Visual Symmetry

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Emre1601 said:

It is disappointing to see you think so low of peoples’ opinions when they do align with yours. And that you insult others and dismiss the opinions of those who are critical of George and Prequels in this manner. But at least your opinion on people who think differently is clear.

It’s not the people themselves that I take an issue with as they have every right to their opinion. Sometimes I even find myself agreeing on a personal level. Everyone has an opinion and in life we’re not meant to always agree on everything but that’s where human sympathy is more valuable. It’s inevitable that we can’t all see eye to eye on every little thing. However an opinion is different from being able to view things from an artistic standpoint of visual literacy and everything else I’m hammering on and on about. I’m stopping though as I see now nobody wants to ask the questions of why or how but merely what reinforces their opinions on what something is supposed to be. It’s a sad thing to me how some can’t see the difference between having a personal opinion on something and reading things for what the artist intended or did in fact include in their works.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

It is disappointing to see you think so low of peoples’ opinions when they do align with yours. And that you insult others and dismiss the opinions of those who are critical of George and Prequels in this manner. But at least your opinion on people who think differently is clear.

It’s not the people themselves that I take an issue with as they have every right to their opinion. Sometimes I even find myself agreeing on a personal level. Everyone has an opinion and in life we’re not meant to always agree on everything but that’s where human sympathy is more valuable. It’s inevitable that we can’t all see eye to eye on every little thing. However an opinion is different from being able to view things from an artistic standpoint of visual literacy and everything else I’m hammering on and on about. I’m stopping though as I see now nobody wants to ask the questions of why or how but merely what reinforces their opinions on what something is supposed to be. It’s a sad thing to me how some can’t see the difference between having a personal opinion on something and reading things for what the artist intended or did in fact include in their works.

I was serious when I suggested you start a “visual literacy” thread - separate to other threads focusing about what happens on screen. Some people may not agree with or be too engaged in it, and that it doesn’t affects their view of what occurs in the films onscreen, but it is still an interesting and alternative way of viewing films (and films outside of Star Wars too).

Many people did not like or agree with the Star Wars ring theory. That may be because it brought little to what the they had see and experienced onscreen, and it could have done without the subtitle “the hidden artistry of the Prequels” as much of it was already known, but not in a central hub as Mike Klimo had taken the time and effort to compile. But it was still interesting feature to read about and learn.

I too will not mention this again as it is not what the focus of the thread is about.

Explanations, analysis, and shortcomings of the Star Wars Ring Theory : Plinkett & HelloGreedo | The Emptiness of George Lucas’ Visual Symmetry

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Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

It is disappointing to see you think so low of peoples’ opinions when they do align with yours. And that you insult others and dismiss the opinions of those who are critical of George and Prequels in this manner. But at least your opinion on people who think differently is clear.

It’s not the people themselves that I take an issue with as they have every right to their opinion. Sometimes I even find myself agreeing on a personal level. Everyone has an opinion and in life we’re not meant to always agree on everything but that’s where human sympathy is more valuable. It’s inevitable that we can’t all see eye to eye on every little thing. However an opinion is different from being able to view things from an artistic standpoint of visual literacy and everything else I’m hammering on and on about. I’m stopping though as I see now nobody wants to ask the questions of why or how but merely what reinforces their opinions on what something is supposed to be. It’s a sad thing to me how some can’t see the difference between having a personal opinion on something and reading things for what the artist intended or did in fact include in their works.

I was serious when I suggested you start a “visual literacy” thread - separate to other threads focusing about what happens on screen. Some people may not agree with or be too engaged in it, and that it doesn’t affects their view of what occurs in the films onscreen, but it is still an interesting and alternative way of viewing films (and films outside of Star Wars too).

Many people did not like or agree with the Star Wars ring theory. That may be because it brought little to what the they had see and experienced onscreen, and it could have done without the subtitle “the hidden artistry of the Prequels” as much of it was already known, but not in a central hub as Mike Klimo had taken the time and effort to compile. But it was still interesting feature to read about and learn.

I too will not mention this again as it is not what the focus of the thread is about.

My apologies. I missed where you suggested I do so. I was very zoned out this morning. I feel unfortunately I’ve said mostly everything I need to with regards to these things. It’s a great way to view films in general and not just Star Wars. I understand though why some wouldn’t want to go there. Star Wars is a very personal thing to each of us. We all have a different reason for why we love it. Some just watch it purely to be entertained while others like to peel back the layers to counter the fun we’re having. Neither set of fans is wrong. I’m happy we can’t all see it the same way but I do wish sometimes we could try understanding one another more so than watching reviewers who use false claims as evidence why one set of films is worse than another or is the definitive reason they’re not any good when they’re merely just giving their opinions. Enjoy what you enjoy but try being open minded. Star Wars belongs to all of us yet at the same time the first six films are George’s and we should respect that. It might not be our way but that doesn’t matter.

I really enjoy Mike Klimo’s work as I think he’s completely spot on. It probably could’ve done indeed without the “the hidden artistry of the Prequels” but to be fair to him the Prequels were getting slandered pretty heavily at the time by everyone and Prequel fans like me were in the minority and/or still coming to our own as a voice within the fandom.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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I’m in the Bionicle fandom, so I’ve learned to be reticent to demand all the answers from the creators about things they probably never even considered too deeply. Too many people pestered Greg Farshtey (Bionicle’s head writer) for answers about characters’ appearances during the canon contests.

Creators don’t owe you all the answers to minutia.

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BedeHistory731 said:

I’m in the Bionicle fandom, so I’ve learned to be reticent to demand all the answers from the creators about things they probably never even considered too deeply. Too many people pestered Greg Farshtey (Bionicle’s head writer) for answers about characters’ appearances during the canon contests.

Creators don’t owe you all the answers to minutia.

Exactly. They don’t owe you anything in general. This is where we are alike in slightly differing ways.

George said it best:

“I make my movies for myself. People will say, “When you release it, it belongs to the public.” No, it’s mine. I’m leasing it to you. $10 at a time. It still belongs to me.”

PS: I miss Bionicle. Haha

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m in the Bionicle fandom, so I’ve learned to be reticent to demand all the answers from the creators about things they probably never even considered too deeply. Too many people pestered Greg Farshtey (Bionicle’s head writer) for answers about characters’ appearances during the canon contests.

Creators don’t owe you all the answers to minutia.

Exactly. They don’t owe you anything in general. This is where we are alike in slightly differing ways.

George said it best:

“I make my movies for myself. People will say, “When you release it, it belongs to the public.” No, it’s mine. I’m leasing it to you. $10 at a time. It still belongs to me.”

Sorry if this sounds a bit too interrogative, Stardust, but I’ve been wondering: What are your opinions on the original theatrical versions? Because with both your love of George Lucas, and with your recent talk about creators not owing audiences anything, it sounds like you’d be fine with the Special Editions being the only versions available. It’s fine if you are, I’m not trying to shame you, but it feels a bit weird on a site devoted to releasing the original versions. Maybe I’m completely wrong, though.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m in the Bionicle fandom, so I’ve learned to be reticent to demand all the answers from the creators about things they probably never even considered too deeply. Too many people pestered Greg Farshtey (Bionicle’s head writer) for answers about characters’ appearances during the canon contests.

Creators don’t owe you all the answers to minutia.

Exactly. They don’t owe you anything in general. This is where we are alike in slightly differing ways.

George said it best:

“I make my movies for myself. People will say, “When you release it, it belongs to the public.” No, it’s mine. I’m leasing it to you. $10 at a time. It still belongs to me.”

Sorry if this sounds a bit too interrogative, Stardust, but I’ve been wondering: What are your opinions on the original theatrical versions? Because with both your love of George Lucas, and with your recent talk about creators not owing audiences anything, it sounds like you’d be fine with the Special Editions being the only versions available. It’s fine if you are, I’m not trying to shame you, but it feels a bit weird on a site devoted to releasing the original versions. Maybe I’m completely wrong, though.

I’ve really avoided giving my opinion on this for a long, long time but I’ll take the bait.

My opinion is simply that if George approves then I’d be more than happy to have them like when he gives his blessing towards the Academy to show A New Hope at their museum’s cinema. I’d love seeing the Original Trilogy unaltered again as I grew up with it that way too as they were the versions that my dad’s friend burnt me copies of on tape if I recall correctly. I genuinely appreciate the dedication of everyone who works to capture the feeling of what they feel Star Wars was when they first saw it with their various versions but at the end of the day I think only George himself can decide what it truly means.

It’s not ours to tamper with and it’s the artist who gets to choose what they wish us to view. They have a reason for alterations. I think trying to understand why is a more interesting question than asking what were they thinking. I also don’t see the level of distain towards George to be all that productive or fair. I mean other artists have changed their work but I rarely see the level of vicious hate George gets thrown at them. I mean he made changes and a trilogy you may not enjoy as much as the original unaltered or otherwise three films but maybe it’s better to understand him and his intentions if you’re still going to devote time to Star Wars.

However I suppose that’s not neccessary anymore since Disney owns it now and it has run off into a different direction than what it means to him but it may help with viewing his films as Episodes I-VI. Star Wars was always very personal to him. He was what he wrote and he was very concerned about being responsible with what he said in his films. It’s why he made certain changes like cutting back frames with the Imperial Bridge Officers getting shot or having Greedo shoot first or even limiting blood shown in the later films. It may not be something fans as they’re older think about in this way as we really or hopefully know the difference between right and wrong but he was thinking about the current generation children viewing them but also the children that will be here after we’re gone. He’s a futurist and forward thinker. These films are for children but can be enjoyed by all ages.

People often compare him naturally to Luke but I don’t think they realise just how much Anakin and Padme’s relationship really mirrors his life with Marcia. That’s at least the feeling I get the more I know about him and her too. There’s many things like this you discover the more you peel the stories and George back on a more personal level.

Ulimately trying to alter it to how we wish to see it might be personal to us but we should also try thinking about it from the other side too. It’s not always about us the fans as much as I think we’d like it to be. I’ll never discourage anyone from watching the films how they intend or desire to but truly remember at the same time I think that George Lucas Is Star Wars.

I’m also on here compared to other forums because despite my many differences with most but not all on here it can be very tolerant of those with differing views of it. It’s hard to find that level of open Star Wars talk lately. This can be both a good or bad thing but it usually evens out in finding some middle ground. I also do admire film preservation and see its importance. We do need to preserve films and media in general for generations to come.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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George Lucas may not have forgotten about Obi Wan serving Bail Organa… he probably just didn’t think that one throwaway line, written at a time when the Jedi backstory was hazy at best, fit with his evolving conception of the Jedi. In fact, that line about Bail Organa is a vestigial remnant of Lucas’s original conception of the Jedi.

That line actually helped form my conception of what the Jedi were like, before the Prequel films came out. But the Jedi turned out to be very different from how I imagined them. That line about serving Leia’s father (Bail Organa), along with Obi-Wan’s recollections to Luke, the use of the word “crusade”, and Kurosawa’s influence on Lucas, suggested to me a Jedi order that was more like some combination of Medieval Knights and Samurai, who served the nobility during the Old Republic. I imagined Obi Wan was in service to the royal family of Alderaan. But I certainly never imagined the Jedi were actually more like celibate Franciscan monks.

The scarce info we get about the Jedi in the OT suggested to me that the Prequel era was something closer to Knights of the Old Republic, with the “high fantasy” element cranked up a bit more than was evident in the militaristic OT era, and the Jedi Knights existing less as a monastic order and more like an elite class of warriors associated with the nobility.

It turns out my conception of the Jedi was very close to the way Lucas originally envisioned them - he imagined them as the personal bodyguards of the emperor, and as an elite group of warriors who were killed off by a rival warrior sect, the “Knights of Sith”. (This is how Lucas describes them in the 1974 draft.) Obviously, Lucas’ conception of the Jedi changed drastically over time. He ultimately made them less “Knights of the Round Table/Samurai” and more “celibate Franciscan monk” for some reason. But that line about Bail Organa is a vestigial remnant of Lucas’s original conception.

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Channel72 said:

George Lucas may not have forgotten about Obi Wan serving Bail Organa… he probably just didn’t think that one throwaway line, written at a time when the Jedi backstory was hazy at best, fit with his evolving conception of the Jedi. In fact, that line about Bail Organa is a vestigial remnant of Lucas’s original conception of the Jedi.

That line actually helped form my conception of what the Jedi were like, before the Prequel films came out. But the Jedi turned out to be very different from how I imagined them. That line about serving Leia’s father (Bail Organa), along with Obi-Wan’s recollections to Luke, the use of the word “crusade”, and Kurosawa’s influence on Lucas, suggested to me a Jedi order that was more like some combination of Medieval Knights and Samurai, who served the nobility during the Old Republic. I imagined Obi Wan was in service to the royal family of Alderaan. But I certainly never imagined the Jedi were actually more like celibate Franciscan monks.

The scarce info we get about the Jedi in the OT suggested to me that the Prequel era was something closer to Knights of the Old Republic, with the “high fantasy” element cranked up a bit more than was evident in the militaristic OT era, and the Jedi Knights existing less as a monastic order and more like an elite class of warriors associated with the nobility.

It turns out my conception of the Jedi was very close to the way Lucas originally envisioned them - he imagined them as the personal bodyguards of the emperor, and as an elite group of warriors who were killed off by a rival warrior sect, the “Knights of Sith”. (This is how Lucas describes them in the 1974 draft.) Obviously, Lucas’ conception of the Jedi changed drastically over time. He ultimately made them less “Knights of the Round Table/Samurai” and more “celibate Franciscan monk” for some reason. But that line about Bail Organa is a vestigial remnant of Lucas’s original conception.

All this is correct. Earlier scripts talk about Kenobi commanding “The White Legion” during the Clone Wars.

I mentioned somewhere else that I always envisioned the Jedi to be similar to these guys: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight

Honestly, the KOTOR games vision of the Star Wars Universe is second only to the OT, maybe even equal.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m in the Bionicle fandom, so I’ve learned to be reticent to demand all the answers from the creators about things they probably never even considered too deeply. Too many people pestered Greg Farshtey (Bionicle’s head writer) for answers about characters’ appearances during the canon contests.

Creators don’t owe you all the answers to minutia.

Exactly. They don’t owe you anything in general. This is where we are alike in slightly differing ways.

George said it best:

“I make my movies for myself. People will say, “When you release it, it belongs to the public.” No, it’s mine. I’m leasing it to you. $10 at a time. It still belongs to me.”

Sorry if this sounds a bit too interrogative, Stardust, but I’ve been wondering: What are your opinions on the original theatrical versions? Because with both your love of George Lucas, and with your recent talk about creators not owing audiences anything, it sounds like you’d be fine with the Special Editions being the only versions available. It’s fine if you are, I’m not trying to shame you, but it feels a bit weird on a site devoted to releasing the original versions. Maybe I’m completely wrong, though.

I’ve really avoided giving my opinion on this for a long, long time but I’ll take the bait.

My opinion is simply that if George approves then I’d be more than happy to have them like when he gives his blessing towards the Academy to show A New Hope at their museum’s cinema. I’d love seeing the Original Trilogy unaltered again as I grew up with it that way too as they were the versions that my dad’s friend burnt me copies of on tape if I recall correctly. I genuinely appreciate the dedication of everyone who works to capture the feeling of what they feel Star Wars was when they first saw it with their various versions but at the end of the day I think only George himself can decide what it truly means.

It’s not ours to tamper with and it’s the artist who gets to choose what they wish us to view. They have a reason for alterations. I think trying to understand why is a more interesting question than asking what were they thinking. I also don’t see the level of distain towards George to be all that productive or fair. I mean other artists have changed their work but I rarely see the level of vicious hate George gets thrown at them. I mean he made changes and a trilogy you may not enjoy as much as the original unaltered or otherwise three films but maybe it’s better to understand him and his intentions if you’re still going to devote time to Star Wars.

However I suppose that’s not neccessary anymore since Disney owns it now and it has run off into a different direction than what it means to him but it may help with viewing his films as Episodes I-VI. Star Wars was always very personal to him. He was what he wrote and he was very concerned about being responsible with what he said in his films. It’s why he made certain changes like cutting back frames with the Imperial Bridge Officers getting shot or having Greedo shoot first or even limiting blood shown in the later films. It may not be something fans as they’re older think about in this way as we really or hopefully know the difference between right and wrong but he was thinking about the current generation children viewing them but also the children that will be here after we’re gone. He’s a futurist and forward thinker. These films are for children but can be enjoyed by all ages.

[…]

Ulimately trying to alter it to how we wish to see it might be personal to us but we should also try thinking about it from the other side too. It’s not always about us the fans as much as I think we’d like it to be. I’ll never discourage anyone from watching the films how they intend or desire to but truly remember at the same time I think that George Lucas Is Star Wars.

[…]

I’m sorry Stardust, but this is all crazy to me. I’m a huge fan of George’s the biggest amongst my group of friends by far. I love all of his movies to varying degrees and in particular his writing. But as his fan - and I know you are one, too - you have to respect George more. Not current age George, but 1977 George. And 1980 George. And 1983 George too. They were just as amazing, if not more, than 1997, 2004 or 2011 George.

He called all the shots in the original movie and he did everything he could at the time, but he saw it as completely fit for release and proudly put it out. The movie was always meant to be for children, and none of them got upset at seeing 10 extra frames of imperial officers getting hit or Han shooting Greedo. That scene was straight out of old westerns Lucas saw as a child and you and I will both agree he turned out alright, even seeing that. Which is why he made something similar for the children of that time and it’s still just as effective.

I don’t think the SE is a travesty of any sorts at all. The absurdity is the fact that current age George does not respect his past self, a guy who made one of the best trilogies ever made. And honestly that’s very normal. Most Lennon interviews from the 1970s have him trashing on his Beatles work, or dismissing all or most of it as shit, even songs he was proud of like Strawberry Fields. It’s how artists are. But where most of them respect where their minds were at when they made the movie/album or whatever, George doesn’t.

When you dive into his psyche a little more with stuff like Skywalking or even more surface-level stuff like Rinzler’s books, you get a good sense of why he’s more like that than others. But it’s no excuse to supress his past self’s work and obviously many others as well. The SE should always, on every occasion, be presented as an extra next to the movies that 70s and 80s George made. Those are the hit movies, those are the acclaimed movies.

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I just prefer to preserve every version of the movie. It’s why I believe Blade Runner, Apocalypse Now, Star Trek: TMP/TWOK, and Superman II are the gold standard in releases that respect the versions that got initial acclaim or derision and the directors’ intended versions (which could be better, worse, or just have different issues than the original release).

The original cuts of the movie should be preserved alongside the 1997, 2004/2011, and 3D cuts. Heck, The Lost Cut should have a preservation of some kind.

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Omni said:

Stardust1138 said:

StarkillerAG said:

Stardust1138 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I’m in the Bionicle fandom, so I’ve learned to be reticent to demand all the answers from the creators about things they probably never even considered too deeply. Too many people pestered Greg Farshtey (Bionicle’s head writer) for answers about characters’ appearances during the canon contests.

Creators don’t owe you all the answers to minutia.

Exactly. They don’t owe you anything in general. This is where we are alike in slightly differing ways.

George said it best:

“I make my movies for myself. People will say, “When you release it, it belongs to the public.” No, it’s mine. I’m leasing it to you. $10 at a time. It still belongs to me.”

Sorry if this sounds a bit too interrogative, Stardust, but I’ve been wondering: What are your opinions on the original theatrical versions? Because with both your love of George Lucas, and with your recent talk about creators not owing audiences anything, it sounds like you’d be fine with the Special Editions being the only versions available. It’s fine if you are, I’m not trying to shame you, but it feels a bit weird on a site devoted to releasing the original versions. Maybe I’m completely wrong, though.

I’ve really avoided giving my opinion on this for a long, long time but I’ll take the bait.

My opinion is simply that if George approves then I’d be more than happy to have them like when he gives his blessing towards the Academy to show A New Hope at their museum’s cinema. I’d love seeing the Original Trilogy unaltered again as I grew up with it that way too as they were the versions that my dad’s friend burnt me copies of on tape if I recall correctly. I genuinely appreciate the dedication of everyone who works to capture the feeling of what they feel Star Wars was when they first saw it with their various versions but at the end of the day I think only George himself can decide what it truly means.

It’s not ours to tamper with and it’s the artist who gets to choose what they wish us to view. They have a reason for alterations. I think trying to understand why is a more interesting question than asking what were they thinking. I also don’t see the level of distain towards George to be all that productive or fair. I mean other artists have changed their work but I rarely see the level of vicious hate George gets thrown at them. I mean he made changes and a trilogy you may not enjoy as much as the original unaltered or otherwise three films but maybe it’s better to understand him and his intentions if you’re still going to devote time to Star Wars.

However I suppose that’s not neccessary anymore since Disney owns it now and it has run off into a different direction than what it means to him but it may help with viewing his films as Episodes I-VI. Star Wars was always very personal to him. He was what he wrote and he was very concerned about being responsible with what he said in his films. It’s why he made certain changes like cutting back frames with the Imperial Bridge Officers getting shot or having Greedo shoot first or even limiting blood shown in the later films. It may not be something fans as they’re older think about in this way as we really or hopefully know the difference between right and wrong but he was thinking about the current generation children viewing them but also the children that will be here after we’re gone. He’s a futurist and forward thinker. These films are for children but can be enjoyed by all ages.

[…]

Ulimately trying to alter it to how we wish to see it might be personal to us but we should also try thinking about it from the other side too. It’s not always about us the fans as much as I think we’d like it to be. I’ll never discourage anyone from watching the films how they intend or desire to but truly remember at the same time I think that George Lucas Is Star Wars.

[…]

I’m sorry Stardust, but this is all crazy to me. I’m a huge fan of George’s the biggest amongst my group of friends by far. I love all of his movies to varying degrees and in particular his writing. But as his fan - and I know you are one, too - you have to respect George more. Not current age George, but 1977 George. And 1980 George. And 1983 George too. They were just as amazing, if not more, than 1997, 2004 or 2011 George.

He called all the shots in the original movie and he did everything he could at the time, but he saw it as completely fit for release and proudly put it out. The movie was always meant to be for children, and none of them got upset at seeing 10 extra frames of imperial officers getting hit or Han shooting Greedo. That scene was straight out of old westerns Lucas saw as a child and you and I will both agree he turned out alright, even seeing that. Which is why he made something similar for the children of that time and it’s still just as effective.

I don’t think the SE is a travesty of any sorts at all. The absurdity is the fact that current age George does not respect his past self, a guy who made one of the best trilogies ever made. And honestly that’s very normal. Most Lennon interviews from the 1970s have him trashing on his Beatles work, or dismissing all or most of it as shit, even songs he was proud of like Strawberry Fields. It’s how artists are. But where most of them respect where their minds were at when they made the movie/album or whatever, George doesn’t.

When you dive into his psyche a little more with stuff like Skywalking or even more surface-level stuff like Rinzler’s books, you get a good sense of why he’s more like that than others. But it’s no excuse to supress his past self’s work and obviously many others as well. The SE should always, on every occasion, be presented as an extra next to the movies that 70s and 80s George made. Those are the hit movies, those are the acclaimed movies.

You make some valid points. I really want to read Jonathan Rinzler’s books. I actually bought both books for A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back last year but unfortunately they came damaged. I had to send them back. I’m definitely going to try again buying them but first I want to get The Ingmar Bergman Archives book from Taschen since it’s out of print.

I think where we differ is that I truly don’t think George changed all that much. I think the difference between where we see him at with making the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy comes down to the technology. He had to reel himself in more so with the Original Trilogy as he couldn’t possibly make everything he dreamed of achieving.

https://youtu.be/aOknduJ6Rmk

This video with Jonathan Rinzler and Pablo Hidalgo really shows how much the initial idea of THX 1138 and ulimately Star Wars has lots of seeds to what came about in the Prequels. However like all stories they evolve and grow but I think George’s stories in particular always dealt with the same core issues. You can see a lot of parallels between THX 1138 and American Graffiti with Attack of the Clones for example. He’s also always loved history and anthropology. You can see these things in all of his films.

I also would say I think George is more of a forward thinker. He’s not really one to bath himself in self praise. He doesn’t believe his own hype or at least let it get to his head. I’m sure he’s very proud of the work he did on the Original Trilogy but it was also a turbulent time in his life as he also had to set up Lucasfilm and contend with both The Empire Strikes Back going over budget when he was self financing himself and Richard Marquand’s limited experience in special effects forcing him to be on set more for Return of the Jedi than he wanted. Add all of this with the fact that his first marriage started to fall apart when Return of the Jedi was being made. He said in one interview he considers it to be the greatest failure of his life that things fell apart and in another Biography Channel special it was said that it caused him a seven year tail spin of deep depression. It’s also related in Howard Kazanjian’s book that Marcia always wanted to go to the Academy Awards but George didn’t want to. So she went with Howard and his wife. He also refused to take a writing credit on Return of the Jedi until Howard convinced him to as he doesn’t like taking too many credits. So I’m sure George is very proud of the achievements he had with the Original Trilogy but at the same time I don’t think he likes to sit around and think about achievements or I assume that time in his life too much. He’s always about what he can do next to push the medium of storytelling forward. That’s where his interests lie. I’ve started to read The Star Wars Archives: Episodes I-III and it really shows that. He really lights up when he’s talking about the Whills, Midi-Chlorians, and pushing storytelling forward. The heart of telling stories is always the most important thing to him. He never lost sight of that but he knew even before the Prequels came out that he was making films some fans wouldn’t like. He’s very self aware I think of why some fans don’t like the Prequels but that’s not important to him as he makes the films for himself as any truly great artist does. He wants to tell stories but expand the canvas that can tell them. He’s always tried pushing boundaries of what was possible for the time but the technology is a tool to him. He actually doesn’t even like technology that much.

It’s what I feel is missing in Disney Star Wars. The abilities of the creators to understand core contexts of George’s work but to not feel beholden to it at the same time. Yet also push the medium forward at the same time. Unfortunately I don’t see that as a lesson they’ll be learning anytime soon. They seem to on the technology side with The Mandalorian but story needs to come next in my opinion.

I’ll vouch for the Special Editions being the definitive way George wanted Star Wars to be viewed. This doesn’t mean I personally agree or like every change but I respect the artist. It’s like if I wrote a story I worked on with my own personal time for over thirty years. I made a successful first book but I didn’t feel I could deliver what my fans expect of me so I sold it with story treatments for the second and third story. The company decided they didn’t want to use my story. I’d take that personally as I devoted myself and nearly all my life to it. I think that’s how George must feel to some degree. He feels personally slighted that some don’t like what he did. The Special Editions like everything he did were personal to him and weaved together a tale that was as much personal as it was a way to tell entertaining stories. He was what he made and even changed. It’s interesting Ben Burtt said that George told him he would want to go back and change things right after A New Hope came out. So he was always wanting to go back. It may not be what we would do in his shoes but I do think we’d feel personally attacked if a company or someone else tried to take away authorship of our work we evolved over the course of years.

I would also add that kids may not have a problem with the Imperial Bridge Officers or even Han shooting first but that’s because they’re not conditioned to think this way. Kids are less ridged in their thinking than adults. They take things at face value more than we do. We become more narrow minded as we get older but for George it was a matter of what a kid could draw upon and the psychological effects it could have on them growing up as they tend to act out everything they love. I know my buddies and I would play chop each other’s heads off like Anakin does Dooku when we’d lightsaber fight. We weren’t thinking of the context and awfulness of it. I can see where George countered this now though by showing Anakin being burnt by lava to show the consequences of what doing terrible things leads to in the long run. Subconsciously I think we know but we’re still developing that mind as a kid. The changes though were to trim things to not glorify violence. That’s how he saw it and may seem contradictory. He was looking out for making sure kids were protected from becoming as to him anyone can do evil things. His stories are about the choices we have. I can see why he’d feel the way he does about Han shooting first as I admit I never liked Han much before The Force Awakens but I do wonder how my perception would’ve been if I saw things the way George envisions now with Greedo shooting first and saying “Maclunkey”. I can absolutely also see why these changes are problematical to some. There’s a couple of changes I like for example but think could be better executed. It’s all a matter of prospective.

In the end though he took things to heart by giving fans what he thought they’d want with a new chapter in the Disney era and because he assumed his legacy would be protected. He’s not a big fan of the Sequels but he does seem to be more or less at peace with everything else. He also does seem to have taken the high road when he’s around Kathleen Kennedy and everyone else with Disney. He knows the story has to grow beyond him but I’m sure it doesn’t make it any easier. It’s a lesson though I try to take to heart with the Sequels and the other Disney era content I don’t like. It’s not my Star Wars anymore but it is for someone. I suppose as well what Star Wars was always trying to teach us the whole time is we have to let go and act on instinct at some point. I’m taking that lesson step by step. Maybe one day I will fully.

I truly do understand why it can be personal to so many to have the unaltered Original Trilogy. I hope they get an official release but there’s always another side to the story that doesn’t get looked at nearly enough I feel when these things and Star Wars in general are discussed.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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BedeHistory731 said:

Sure, but sometimes you have to step back and say, “Wow, I’m spending countless hours looking for deeper meaning in family space fantasy movies. Maybe I’m no better than the nerds who memorize wikis.”

I think you absolutely can ascribe deeper meaning to Star Wars movies, even the prequels and sequels. The Star Wars fandom wouldn’t be so passionate if this weren’t the case. Star Wars isn’t indie arthouse kino and George Lucas isn’t Francis Ford Coppola, but he was a friend and close colleague of his. Star Wars isn’t Marvel either and Lucas isn’t Michael Bay.

That said, and I truly do mean no disrespect to Stardust1138 (because this is all an internet argument over above average space movies after all)…

Emre1601 said:

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

This is spot on. I almost feel like it’s a culture within the prequel fandom, because prequel fans talking about the basic plot of the prequels is full of more headcanon than what’s actually shown on screen.

Death of the Author

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SparkySywer said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Sure, but sometimes you have to step back and say, “Wow, I’m spending countless hours looking for deeper meaning in family space fantasy movies. Maybe I’m no better than the nerds who memorize wikis.”

I think you absolutely can ascribe deeper meaning to Star Wars movies, even the prequels and sequels. The Star Wars fandom wouldn’t be so passionate if this weren’t the case. Star Wars isn’t indie arthouse kino and George Lucas isn’t Francis Ford Coppola, but he was a friend and close colleague of his. Star Wars isn’t Marvel either and Lucas isn’t Michael Bay.

That said, and I truly do mean no disrespect to Stardust1138 (because this is all an internet argument over above average space movies after all)…

Emre1601 said:

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

This is spot on. I almost feel like it’s a culture within the prequel fandom, because prequel fans talking about the basic plot of the prequels is full of more headcanon than what’s actually shown on screen.

All I’ll say is there’s always another side to every story. Everyone gets something different from what they see as we each have different experiences that shape us. We can choose to view something from a more personal perspective or we can view it from a more artistic perspective. I tend to view it from both but I recognise not everyone cares to go down that rabbit hole. That’s there choice but in my humble opinion especially with something as profoundly moving as Star Wars can be I question why you wouldn’t want to understand George Lucas and his point of view but in life you can’t always understand why people think as they do. I don’t know anymore in life if we truly ever understand each other but it’s human sympathy that is more valuable than ideologies, beliefs, and thought processes.

I also do think Star Wars under George shares many aspects of arthouse cinema but they’re also designed to be entertainment films for kids. They’re the mixture of when you get both as he’s an auteur and they’re independently made. They also deal with themes and issues often found in art films. The really key difference with typical art house cinema and what George did with Star Wars is he made the movies for kids to introduce to them something more than purely a means to entertain. Art films also tend to be for adults. His biggest pure cinema project of this kind was THX 1138 but both Star Wars and American Graffiti were for young people yet do have roots in arthouse cinema.

I would also counter that by saying I think it’s more to do with the perception of how you view the films. Some view them as I-VI but others as IV-VI, I-III. How we experience something first does inform our outlook and way of making connections. Take my friend. She’s watching the Prequels first right now. She loves the series so far and is very excited for Episode III. She loves Jar Jar and was sad when Qui-Gon died. Her favourite scene was him making Obi-Wan promise to train Anakin. She especially loves Anakin and Padme falling in love as she saw they had a connection in The Phantom Menace but didn’t recognise they were so close in age. It didn’t bother her in the slightest. She’s not been influenced by me or the years of baggage we as a fandom have with it. She’s taking the story as it’s given to her in the order George wanted her and everyone to see it. Perhaps in general that’s a lesson we can all learn from on both sides that we shouldn’t project but share as the author intended versus what is personal to us until after we give the newbie a chance to form their own thoughts.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Sure, but sometimes you have to step back and say, “Wow, I’m spending countless hours looking for deeper meaning in family space fantasy movies. Maybe I’m no better than the nerds who memorize wikis.”

I think you absolutely can ascribe deeper meaning to Star Wars movies, even the prequels and sequels. The Star Wars fandom wouldn’t be so passionate if this weren’t the case. Star Wars isn’t indie arthouse kino and George Lucas isn’t Francis Ford Coppola, but he was a friend and close colleague of his. Star Wars isn’t Marvel either and Lucas isn’t Michael Bay.

That said, and I truly do mean no disrespect to Stardust1138 (because this is all an internet argument over above average space movies after all)…

Emre1601 said:

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

This is spot on. I almost feel like it’s a culture within the prequel fandom, because prequel fans talking about the basic plot of the prequels is full of more headcanon than what’s actually shown on screen.

All I’ll say is there’s always another side to every story. Everyone gets something different from what they see as we each have different experiences that shape us. We can choose to view something from a more personal perspective or we can view it from a more artistic perspective. I tend to view it from both but I recognise not everyone cares to go down that rabbit hole. That’s there choice but in my humble opinion especially with something as profoundly moving as Star Wars can be I question why you wouldn’t want to understand George Lucas and his point of view but in life you can’t always understand why people think as they do. I don’t know anymore in life if we truly ever understand each other but it’s human sympathy that is more valuable than ideologies, beliefs, and thought processes.

As others have said on here you assume too much. You assume that others have not also viewed the films from different perspective. You also do not factor in it is possible to view the films from such differing perspectives and still not like or enjoy them.

That is quite a narrow and limited view to take.

I would also counter that by saying I think it’s more to do with the perception of how you view the films.

and

It didn’t bother her in the slightest. She’s not been influenced by me or the years of baggage we as a fandom have with it. She’s taking the story as it’s given to her in the order George wanted her and everyone to see it. Perhaps in general that’s a lesson we can all learn from on both sides that we shouldn’t project but share as the author intended versus what is personal to us until after we give the newbie a chance to form their own thoughts.

As above you assume far too much. People have watched these films in various orders, and some will have watched the Prequels before watching the Original films.

“Baggage as a fandom?”

“A lesson to be learnt?”

“we shouldn’t project but share as the author intended”

But these are only taken into account if we didn’t like the films, right? You seem to be of the opinion Star Wars fans turned up to watch the Prequels with a closed mind, already deciding they didn’t like them before seeing them, and knew nothing of George prior to them. Or if they didn’t like these movies they didn’t simply didn’t understand them.

I would suggest you open your mind to what others are saying to you when they are of the opinion they didn’t enjoy the Prequels very much.

What you are saying is insulting and a little narrow minded. Even when overlooking some brief lip service about “all views being respected” in your posts, it seems obvious you have no respect for people with the view that the Prequels were not enjoyable movies.

The Secret History of Star Wars | Star Wars Visual Comparisons | George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time-Travelling Revisionist

Author
Time
 (Edited)

ken-obi said:

Stardust1138 said:

SparkySywer said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Sure, but sometimes you have to step back and say, “Wow, I’m spending countless hours looking for deeper meaning in family space fantasy movies. Maybe I’m no better than the nerds who memorize wikis.”

I think you absolutely can ascribe deeper meaning to Star Wars movies, even the prequels and sequels. The Star Wars fandom wouldn’t be so passionate if this weren’t the case. Star Wars isn’t indie arthouse kino and George Lucas isn’t Francis Ford Coppola, but he was a friend and close colleague of his. Star Wars isn’t Marvel either and Lucas isn’t Michael Bay.

That said, and I truly do mean no disrespect to Stardust1138 (because this is all an internet argument over above average space movies after all)…

Emre1601 said:

Mental gymnastics and insane stretches have always been required by Prequel fans when in discussion with others who did not enjoy these films or point out the discrepancies between the two trilogies. I am surprised many Prequel fans themselves rarely seem to question why Lucas’ poor writing for the later Trilogy created so many needless plot-holes and contradictions, and still look to use such gymnastics and stretches instead.

This is spot on. I almost feel like it’s a culture within the prequel fandom, because prequel fans talking about the basic plot of the prequels is full of more headcanon than what’s actually shown on screen.

All I’ll say is there’s always another side to every story. Everyone gets something different from what they see as we each have different experiences that shape us. We can choose to view something from a more personal perspective or we can view it from a more artistic perspective. I tend to view it from both but I recognise not everyone cares to go down that rabbit hole. That’s there choice but in my humble opinion especially with something as profoundly moving as Star Wars can be I question why you wouldn’t want to understand George Lucas and his point of view but in life you can’t always understand why people think as they do. I don’t know anymore in life if we truly ever understand each other but it’s human sympathy that is more valuable than ideologies, beliefs, and thought processes.

As others have said on here you assume too much. You assume that others have not also viewed the films from different perspective. You also do not factor in it is possible to view the films from such differing perspectives and still not like or enjoy them.

That is quite a narrow and limited view to take.

I would also counter that by saying I think it’s more to do with the perception of how you view the films.

and

It didn’t bother her in the slightest. She’s not been influenced by me or the years of baggage we as a fandom have with it. She’s taking the story as it’s given to her in the order George wanted her and everyone to see it. Perhaps in general that’s a lesson we can all learn from on both sides that we shouldn’t project but share as the author intended versus what is personal to us until after we give the newbie a chance to form their own thoughts.

As above you assume far too much. People have watched these films in various orders, and some will have watched the Prequels before watching the Original films.

“Baggage as a fandom?”

“A lesson to be learnt?”

“we shouldn’t project but share as the author intended”

But these are only taken into account if we didn’t like the films, right? You seem to be of the opinion Star Wars fans turned up to watch the Prequels with a closed mind, already deciding they didn’t like them before seeing them, and knew nothing of George prior to them. Or if they didn’t like these movies they didn’t simply didn’t understand them.

I would suggest you open your mind to what others are saying to you when they are of the opinion they didn’t enjoy the Prequels very much.

What you are saying is insulting and a little narrow minded. Even when overlooking some brief lip service about “all views being respected” in your posts, it seems obvious you have no respect for people with the view that the Prequels were not enjoyable movies.

That’s not what I’m saying. Don’t misconstrue my words by picking and choosing what I say. I do think a lot of the problems some have lay with they don’t understand it how George Lucas views it. There’s a lot of fans that are simply satisfied with the spaceships and spectacle of it or don’t try understanding things like why the Yoda in Attack of the Clones is different from where we see him in The Empire Strikes Back. I need something more than that and like being able to draw lines between the two trilogies. However that doesn’t mean I think it’s wrong to have your own personal point of view on things with this very thing being what is enjoyed most or not being interested in finding the juxtapositions. I have no problem at all with anyone having their own take on the Prequels or even the Sequels for that matter but there’s a difference between personal viewpoint and watching something how George intends it. I try watching it from his prospective lenses and yet I equally have my own personal viewpoint. I have things to learn about his way of seeing the story. This doesn’t make me right or wrong but is in my humble opinion how you should try to view any creative work. It’s not always about us as a fan when trying to understand a creative’s body of work. It’s just as much a personal experience and how we first experience something that influences how we see a different part of the same thing. It always factors in as with life we become more narrow focused. That’s a fact. It doesn’t mean we can’t still be open minded. None of what I’m saying is attacking anyone personally. So I’d greatly appreciate if you didn’t put words in my mouth. Please and thank you.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas