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Did Anakin's fall start with Qui-Gon?

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"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." - Yoda



Gui-Gon used The Force to cheat at gambling (the chance cube) and in business negotiations ("credits will do fine"), and even to commit theft (mind-tricking Boss Nass into giving him a bongo).

It's not exactly slaughtering the younglings, but if a man who used The Force so dishonorably taught the ways of The Force to a nine-year-old, could he not unwittingly have led the child his first few tentative steps down the dark path?

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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I suppose it didn't help. But I think Anakin would have taken the dark path regarless. It was just his nature. There was a deleted scene from TPM that I felt should have been left in. The Anakin / Greedo fight. This just shows that Anakin was angry and violent from the start.
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I only feel that scene should have been left in had it been anybody else but Greedo. As it is, I'm glad it's cut. Hell, actually, all they would have to do is cut out that last line where the kids tells "Greedo" he's going to get in trouble one of these days. *plays cheesy foreshadowing music*

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I don't know, I kinda like it with Greedo. It shows that he was a bully, impulsive, and not too bright.

But yes, that scene served a good purpose, to show that Anakin was tempermental and quick-tempered. I don't think that Qui-Gon caused his fall. Sure, Qui-Gon used the force to cheat, but there was a greater good there in all those cases. Anakin misused the force because he could, without any greater reason.
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But didn't we already have enough pointless cameos in the PT? The galaxy far, far away has been shrunk enough without adding in yet another OT character cameo into it.

Besides, I think we already knew from his original appearance that he was a bully, impulsive, and not too bright.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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There's nothing evil about using Jedi powers for good by cheating someone who's gambling with the lives of enslaved people. I don't like the notion that Jedi have to be boring wimps who are never allowed to take chances or do anything dubious. Anakin's fall to the dark side made no sense anyways, so don't bother with the little things.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Qui-gon wasn't using the Force to cheat at gambling so that he could buy a crateload of beer and some power converters, he was using it for a greater good.
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Originally posted by: aled
Qui-gon wasn't using the Force to cheat at gambling so that he could buy a crateload of beer and some power converters, he was using it for a greater good.


The greater good of getting Anakin off that desert rock so he could become Darth Vader? Gee, thanks. I think it would have worked out better for everyone if he had rescued Shmi instead.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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Qui-Gon is perhaps the most good-natured and noble Jedi in the entire overall series. He upholds the Jedi credo but he doesn't get bogged down by the dogma; he bends the rules when his conscience tells him that they obstruct a greater good, such as conning a child-slaving gambler.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape

But didn't we already have enough pointless cameos in the PT? The galaxy far, far away has been shrunk enough without adding in yet another OT character cameo into it.

Besides, I think we already knew from his original appearance that he was a bully, impulsive, and not too bright.


100% agree

Gaffer, I heard that Lucas is reinstating that scene in TPM SE, and this time Greedo punches first. Lucas reasoning, "I want the trilogies to echo each other, and this will work perfectly with ANH SE. "
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Originally posted by: zombie84
Qui-Gon is perhaps the most good-natured and noble Jedi in the entire overall series. He upholds the Jedi credo but he doesn't get bogged down by the dogma; he bends the rules when his conscience tells him that they obstruct a greater good, such as conning a child-slaving gambler.


Exactly. He's not as cool as Ben, but he definitely manifests the image of a noble knight better than all the rest.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Yeah, I do wish all of the Jedi were a little more like Qui-Gon. A little roguish, above the rules because they serve a higher purpose. It's a shame things are so muddled and cross-wise in the PT. Qui-Gon could've been a character that was throughout the three movies and slain by Anakin in the third, which really would wolloped us in the gut with the impact because we liked the guy. Again, another missed opportunity.
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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Anakin's fall to the dark side made no sense anyways, so don't bother with the little things.



Can you ellaborate on that a little?
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Well, it had to do with the final turn. One minute he was happy, nice, and loving, the next minute he was murdering innocent children over an inconsequential dream sequence. Therefore, if a person's fall to the dark side of the force must involve their power to choose their own fate, as the OT implied (and even the PT implied at many points), Anakin must have been psychotic to have made the final choices that he made. If the dark side of the force doesn't involve choices on the other hand, then it operates in contradictory and arbitrary manner. If anyone can be great one minute and pure evil the next simply because the force can illogically force someone to be so, then there is little or no human drama left in the Star Wars universe.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Watto's chance cube was fixed in the first place, although whether or not Qui-Gon was aware of this does have some bearing on just how dishonorable his force-push really was.

Wookie Wedgie, I'm not so sure about Qui-Gon not getting killed until Episode III. It had always been implicit that it was only Anakin and Obi by the time the lava pit duel rolled around. Maybe he could've stayed on in some other capacity once Obi-Wan started to train Anakin? Or maybe (and this is something I just thought up just now) he could've stayed in the shadows after Episode I as some mysterious figure and then had his big reveal in Episode III and then gotten killed by Anakin.

Gaffer Tape does have a good point, though. Even without the Greedo scene there are way too many cameos making the PT feel more like one huge homage instead of a continuation.
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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Well, it had to do with the final turn. One minute he was happy, nice, and loving, the next minute he was murdering innocent children over an inconsequential dream sequence. Therefore, if a person's fall to the dark side of the force must involve their power to choose their own fate, as the OT implied (and even the PT implied at many points), Anakin must have been psychotic to have made the final choices that he made. If the dark side of the force doesn't involve choices on the other hand, then it operates in contradictory and arbitrary manner. If anyone can be great one minute and pure evil the next simply because the force can illogically force someone to be so, then there is little or no human drama left in the Star Wars universe.



The reason it comes off so jarring is Lucas changed the context of the movie after shooting the original turn scene. If you listen to the ROTS commentary by Lucas, he is suprisingly candid about how he reconfigured the movie after the original shoot, and how his original vision got changed.

His original turn scene had Anakin turning right when Palpatine reveals himself, but Lucas felt it came off with no emotion. The original turn scene as it was first shot was Anakin turning for more power, and not solely for Padme dying, although that was a factor. Palpatine offers him everything, including this trick, and Anakin takes the bait and turns solely for more power and a HUGE reason is because he feels the jedi are the bad guys. So if you watch the second half of ROTS, that part was shot in the context of Anakin turning on the Jedi not for Padme, so of course the first thing he does is go to the temple and kill the younglings. Then check out the dialogue on Mustafar with Anakin/Obiwan: Anakin says, "I always knew the jedi were evil!!!" Kenobi says, "The Chancellor evil Anakin!!!" Anakin replies, "From my point of the view, the jedi are evil!!!" Kenobi replies, "Well then you are lost!!!" Does this have anything to do with Padme and saving her? No, because this whole Mustafar dialogue sequence was shot in the original context.

So now Lucas decides to change the turn so Anakin has more of an emotional moment when he turns, so Lucas decides to make it solely for Padme, and changes his turn now to when Mace is going to kill Palpatine. He then shoots a new scene where Anakin tells Mace about Palpatine being the Sith. He then films Anakin/Padme staring at each other in Coruscant as Anakin is in the jedi chamber by himself. He then shoots Anakin leaving and now walking in on Mace as he has Palpatine cornered.

The problem is the rest of the damn movie is shot with the old context!!!! So all of us here are essentially watching two different movies, the first movie was shot from when Anakin storms the temple all the way to Mustafar with the context of him doing it for power and feeling the jedi are the badguys. Then everything up to the Turn scene in Palpatines office is SOLELY for Padme and finding this trick for dying.

Opening night, I thought it was weird and couldn't put my finger on why ROTS never made sense to me, even though I thought it was the best of the PT movies, but after listening to the commentary, it makes sense now why it doesn't make sense. Zombie has talked about this before, he can elaborate if I missed anything.
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I always thought "turning for Padme" was the last straw so to speak. He was going to go to the dark side regarless. He always was seeking greater power. He was always angry, jealous, and wanted control. There are hints of this all through the PT. Also, I think Palpatine was great at influencing people, messing with their heads. Be it from the force or not.
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Wookie Wedgie, I'm not so sure about Qui-Gon not getting killed until Episode III. It had always been implicit that it was only Anakin and Obi by the time the lava pit duel rolled around.

Oh no, absolutely not, no. If I made a change like that, I'd make a whole bunch of other changes, too. I woulda had Obi-Wan the one finding Anakin, not Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon wouldn't be Obi-Wan's teacher, it'd be Yoda like he said in ESB. But, I would make Qui-Gon, or a character like Qui-Gon one of Anakin's first victims when he's revealed to be the betrayer of the Jedi. Maybe Qui-Gon figures it out and Anakin slays him. Qui-Gon, was a close friend of Obi-Wan's, and Obi-Wan's wants to take vengeance on the one who killed his friend. He's, of course, shocked to discover it's his own student...
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Ok, I see what you're saying. Just as long as Qui-Gon's not there by the time of "the big duel," because that's something that's been talked about ever since the early 80's or whenever it was first brought up. Your alternate storyline for Qui-Gon could've worked just as well as, if not better than, what we got in TPM. I think what we got instead was Anakin killing Mace with Palpatine's help.

Your alternate storyline seems motivated out of a desire for a family dynamic that continues throughout the entire PT, similar to Leia, Luke and Han in the OT. As it is, Obi-Wan and Anakin are barely acquainted by the end of TPM, and just in time to get a different actor to play Anakin in AOTC. I do see where this is coming from, though. Like you said, it would've been nice to see more Jedi like him.
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Originally posted by: Fang Zei
I think what we got instead was Anakin killing Mace with Palpatine's help.
Hmm. We're talking about Qui-Gon's habit of violating the "code" when he felt a greater good was at stake. Killing Palpatine instead of arresting him would have been perfectly in character for him. It would have been interesting for that to have been Qui-Gon instead of Mace.

Originall posted by: Wookie Wedgie
Obi-Wan's wants to take vengeance

That would be very un-Jedi-like. Remember him saying, "Don't give into hate, that leads to the dark side"?

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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Well, if that had been done right in the prequels, it would have worked perfectly. If you remember, most of Obi-Wan's advice and connection to Luke was based off of his mistakes as a young man. But, wait, I forgot, prequel Obi-Wan was perfect in every way and never made a mistake. But, yeah, if there had been a point in the prequels where Obi-Wan had given in to hate and came close to doing something evil, then it would have resonated well with that quote and been a contrast to Anakin, who was also confronted with choices and didn't resist.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Well, if that had been done right in the prequels, it would have worked perfectly. If you remember, most of Obi-Wan's advice and connection to Luke was based off of his mistakes as a young man. But, wait, I forgot, prequel Obi-Wan was perfect in every way and never made a mistake. But, yeah, if there had been a point in the prequels where Obi-Wan had given in to hate and came close to doing something evil, then it would have resonated well with that quote and been a contrast to Anakin, who was also confronted with choices and didn't resist.


Gaffer, the character of Obiwan was one of the few things I really liked about the PT. I have to say he is the one character I really cared about, and I give big props to Ewan McGregor, cause filling Alec Guiness shoes was a huge undertaking.

I never really thought of what Obiwan should been like before ANH, but I actually like that Lucas made him the ultimate good guy jedi, cause he more echos Luke when you watch the OT now. The one thing Lucas could have done was made Obiwan be an apologist for Anakin and all his bad traits. The council should have found out about Anakin/Padme relationship, and his constantly problems with obeying the Jedi order, and Obiwan should have stuck up for Anakin only cause he knew he was the chosen one. It would be just like every parent letting their kids get away with too much and then they turn out like brats, they are well intentioned, but just weren't tough enough.

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I too liked how Obiwan was the good guy of the prequel trilogy. (Unfortunately George didn't make him the main character as he should have.) Though I agree with Gaffer that he should have made more mistakes.


Originally posted by: CO
The reason it comes off so jarring is Lucas changed the context of the movie after shooting the original turn scene. If you listen to the ROTS commentary by Lucas, he is suprisingly candid about how he reconfigured the movie after the original shoot, and how his original vision got changed.

Yeah, I remember when Zombie first described the change. It helps everything make more sense in terms of how the movie was made. It just really leaves much to be desired. I preferred the new approach actually; it gave Anakin a personal reason for turning (one where he became likable for the first time), it simply just wasn’t good enough to explain what he then went on to do (at least not in a way where he remains likable at all).

In actuality though, the real fault in this situation was George’s sloppy thinking. He changed his mind while making the prequel trilogy and decided that someone as evil as Darth Vader should never be able to repent and be redeemed. So he invented some bullshit about the good Anakin Skywalker being killed by the evil Darth Vader (in his head or something) and then being resurrected by his two children in Return of the Jedi (somehow). He actually thought that was a brilliant idea I’m guessing.


Originally posted by: 20th Century Mark
I always thought "turning for Padme" was the last straw so to speak. He was going to go to the dark side regarless. He always was seeking greater power. He was always angry, jealous, and wanted control. There are hints of this all through the PT. Also, I think Palpatine was great at influencing people, messing with their heads. Be it from the force or not.


Yeah that’s certainly reasonable. You simply need to then conclude that he was a psychopath though.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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That would be very un-Jedi-like. Remember him saying, "Don't give into hate, that leads to the dark side"?

Of course it is, that's the point of dynamic story-telling! Obi-Wan must overcome his hatred towards Anakin, release the aggression and do what is right!
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Originally posted by: Tiptup
I too liked how Obiwan was the good guy of the prequel trilogy. (Unfortunately George didn't make him the main character as he should have.) Though I agree with Gaffer that he should have made more mistakes.


Originally posted by: CO
The reason it comes off so jarring is Lucas changed the context of the movie after shooting the original turn scene. If you listen to the ROTS commentary by Lucas, he is suprisingly candid about how he reconfigured the movie after the original shoot, and how his original vision got changed.


Yeah, I remember when Zombie first described the change. It helps everything make more sense in terms of how the movie was made. It just really leaves much to be desired. I preferred the new approach actually; it gave Anakin a personal reason for turning (one where he became likable for the first time), it simply just wasn’t good enough to explain what he then went on to do (at least not in a way where he remains likable at all).

In actuality though, the real fault in this situation was George’s sloppy thinking. He changed his mind while making the prequel trilogy and decided that someone as evil as Darth Vader should never be able to repent and be redeemed. So he invented some bullshit about the good Anakin Skywalker being killed by the evil Darth Vader (in his head or something) and then being resurrected by his two children in Return of the Jedi (somehow). He actually thought that was a brilliant idea I’m guessing.


It's especially frustrating with the context of the line, "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." Where is Obi-Wan pleading with Anakin, trying to figure out what's going on, trying to get him to come back? There already wasn't enough talking between Anakin and Obi-Wan, but what is said just seems so irrelevant to what's happening.

But, of course, the ORIGINAL trilogy was unfinished--the PT is perfect!

I seriously hope that, with all the stuff he's done to the OT, he'll do some serious work on the PT for the 2007 megaset. Surely he could have Hayden and Ewan record some dialogue! It wouldn't be too hard. If nothing else, he loves CG so much you would think he could use it to make them talk.

*sigh*

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