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Despecialized V 4K77: Dawn of Justice

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I’m getting ready to burn some edits to blu-ray in the coming months, and I was just wondering which version of the OT do people prefer. Harmy’s Despcialized, or the work done by the 4K team with 4K77 and 4K83.

Any sort of insight on personal preference or differences between to two, or even which ones are easier to burn to blu ray would be great.

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If you get 4K77 you’ll be getting higher picture quality despite possibly slightly less detail in certain shots due to the DE being sourced from the Blu-Ray, which itself was sourced from the negative, while 4K77 is just a scan of a regular Technicolor print. You’ll also be dealing with dirt & scratches and, if deciding to get the “no-DNR” version, a ton of noise and grain as well. If you wait a few more weeks the “Skymaster Edition” of 4K77 will be released with a lot of DNR and a lot of extra cleanup, resulting in the most modern, most ‘official release’ looking 4K77 yet - while still being clearly a scanned print, retaining the fine grain and the filmic look. I think it’s going to be the ultimate version of the film for quite a good while, until maybe DE v3.0 tops it or even the “Skywalker Edition”, but both are likely to take a few years to complete.

Anyway, watching the no-DNR version feels like you’re watching a projected print, but it’s still clean and nice-looking enough for one to enjoy it as a Blu-Ray on the comfort of their couch. The DNR version currently available brings the film much closer to looking and feeling like a Blu-Ray while still retaining the film print feel, and does a marvelous job at that, but in this regard still no match for the DEs. They are much cleaner and obviously less noisy than the no-DNRs though, and is the best 4K77 looks that’s been officially released to date IMO.

You’re probably more familiar with the DEs, which are, IMHO, getting a bit outclassed by the 4KXXs here. Star Wars’ v2.7 is IMHO no match for any of the 4K77 versions. What Harmy was able to accomplish with the material he had available at the time is absolutely astonishing though, and the picture clarity of the DEs is much superior to that of the 4K77s. It’s as of right now the fan preservation that looks the most like what an official release would theoretically look like. Still, like mentioned above, the ‘Skymaster Edition’ of 4K77 is probably going to take the cake on basically everything I’ve mentioned here and stand above the others for a good while.

TLDR: 4K77 is more immersive due to its filmic nature and feel, but still much noisier and dirtier than the DE. It looks much better though. So if dirt, etc. doesn’t bother you, like it doesn’t bother me, then great, 4K77 is definitely what you’re looking for! But the DEs look more like a Blu-Ray and are much, much cleaner - so if that’s what you’re going for, great! I say you should get 4K77 though, so you should probably compare the two.

Since you talked about burning too, I should point out that I don’t think 4K77 fits in a single layer BR though. You might be looking at BD50 if you want 4K77. 😄

Cheers!

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I actually prefer DeEd for all films, even though Star Wars is definitely the ugliest of the DeEds.

I’ve found people’s preference largely depends on what they’re looking for. If you’re looking for a true recreation of what the cinema experience in 1977 was, 4K77 is the only way to go. If you’re looking for what a respectful modern Blu-ray transfer would have looked like, then Despecialized still fits the bill better IMO. I’m a purist to the degree that Greedo doesn’t shoot. But I’m happy to get rid of reel change marks and the film damage on Tantive IV.

Jedi is an easier choice for me. Jedi DeEd doesn’t have any of the warts of Star Wars DeEd, and it’s very hard to beat if you’re looking for something equivalent to a modern respectful Blu-ray treatment. 4K83 is clean as hell (amazingly so), but it’s still an old theatrical print, and looks like it (which could be good or bad, depending on what you want).

All DeEd’s are encoded and sized to fit on a BD25 if you want to burn them.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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  • Star Wars: 4K77 Blu-Ray release, which is the DNR version - no reel change markers, some more cleanup, and much less grainy without losing detail - plus the updated scan of the crawl which the DNR MKV doesn’t have. The only drawback IMO is the color grading, which is a little uneven, and Sanjuro’s excellent regrade can’t be applied to it easily as it was graded differently than the non-DNR release.
  • Empire: Despecialized 2.0
  • Jedi: 4K83 DNR - get the v1.1 (Sanjuro grade), v1.2 (SkyDude DNR settings and Sanjuro grade), or the v1.2 Blu-Ray release (same as v1.2 MKV). Like the DNR 4K77, it has no reel change markers, and Sanjuro’s color is a marked improvement over the initial v1.0 standard and DNR Blu-Ray releases.

a trolling bantha

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Great replies CatBus and ChainsawAsh.

For Star Wars I can see why you’d say the DE instead of 4K77, but for Jedi there’s no other option but 4K83 in my view. This 4K83 DNR v1.2 trailer speaks for itself.

For TESB there’s no other option but the DE 2.0 - the grindhouse versions are very rough. The best one is sourced from a 16mm so there’s a lot of picture missing.

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Holy crap that trailer for 4K83 looks utterly beautiful!! I’m floored. Does anyone know if there’s a way to put 4K83 in place of NJVC’s despecialized Blu-rays? I really like what he did with the menus and whatnot, but I haven’t really seen anything regarding menus for the 4K’s.

I haven’t actually sat down and compared the DeED to 4K77 but I have felt for a while that the colors on Tatooine in Star Wars DeED looks to flat but I don’t yet know how they look in 4K77. I appreciate all of the debate though

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NJVC’s stuff would need to be rebuilt from the ground up because he used Harmy’s untouched 720p encodes, while the 4K## Blu-Ray encodes are 1080p and have a much higher bitrate and file size.

The Blu-Ray releases williarob put together of 4K77’s and 4K83’s DNR releases have menus and such, though.

a trolling bantha

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Hmm I’ll have to check out williarob’s work. Link?

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I appreciate all of your opinions and help. I feel like the current 4K’s are in a better state than the DeED, yet until 4K80 is out DeED is the only option.

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I agree that 4k83 is probably the preferred way to go for that film, especially the later release options. It was such a clean print, you get a really consistent viewing experience. The Rancor scene scan used in Harmy’s version is pretty limited in terms of how far it can be color corrected. It has really never looked better than in some of the latest 4k83 versions. These film restorations look as good as many official Blu-ray releases. And the cleanups look better than official ones on the tier of companies like 88 Films, etc.

For the 1977 film, it’s still hard to give a definitive recommendation. Despecialized has some rough moments, and a couple remaining shots with GOUT elements. 4k77 is a very consistent watch as far as picture quality goes, and the original effects never looked better. The color on the original non-DNR release was was not ideal, IMO, but Rob’s DNR color is much better. And Sanjuro’s grade is excellent.

But the print has a lot of minor damage. Their cleanup is insanely impressive. But once you get to the second half of the film, there is often noticeable damage on every frame, and some very unfortunate light leaks. It’s still a lovely watch (and probably my preferred), but unlike 4k83, you won’t be tricking your eyes into thinking this is an official version from an alternate timeline. 😃 Looking forward to seeing how the Skymaster/Skywalker releases are improved. I’d say Star Wars has great options, but no definitive one yet.

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No one else has experienced crushed blacks and blown-out whites with 4K77?

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Personally I prefer 4K77-83 in terms of what a proper 4K release would look like, vs the DEED which is what a proper Blu Ray would look like. To each their own and all that.

I can answer almost all questions anyone might have about the Sith from Star Wars Legends, and please do PM me for the bd25 DEED(Despecalised Editions), as I have this version, though I can’t answer technical questions about them. Do not go gentle into that good night, Though wise men at their end know dark is right, They
Do not go gentle into that good night.
“Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.” - SilverWook
Feel the love.

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GodMars said:

No one else has experienced crushed blacks and blown-out whites with 4K77?

Depends what you mean. The optical duplication process effectively boosts contrast at every step, so a projection print (4K77) should look contrast-boosted compared with a negative or IP (DeEd). That’s part of what I personally don’t like about the look of print-based preservations in general (and why I prefer the look of well-done Blu-rays – 4K and otherwise – to 35mm prints). That said, 4K83 keeps it pretty under control somehow, possibly because the source was just better. To be honest, I’d probably prefer 4K83 if it came out first, but both it and the DeEd are so far beyond close enough to perfect for my tastes, I go with DeEd simply because I’ve already got one Holy Grail and have no use for a second one.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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I have a couple of questions:

  1. I tried to watched 4K77 and found it was very choppy on my laptop or on my flash drive which holds 128gb and is supposed to be good for movies - it was playing on my Panasonic 820 4K player. Thoughts on the issue?

  2. I watched the Despecialized 2.7 Star Wars 720p last night and was very impressed! The only issue I saw was the whites seemed a bit clipped at times - specular highlights in particular. Is there a version which alleviates this?

Thanks.

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DB2 said:

I have a couple of questions:

  1. I tried to watched 4K77 and found it was very choppy on my laptop or on my flash drive which holds 128gb and is supposed to be good for movies - it was playing on my Panasonic 820 4K player. Thoughts on the issue?

  2. I watched the Despecialized 2.7 Star Wars 720p last night and was very impressed! The only issue I saw was the whites seemed a bit clipped at times - specular highlights in particular. Is there a version which alleviates this?

Thanks.

Not sure about #1, but if you try playing the file over the network on your Panny 820, you could rule out disk/interface bottleneck issues. You could also try demuxing the movie and remuxing it with just the audio you want, etc, and see if that helps.

For #2, no. Clipping is an issue on the Blu-ray source (most visible to me in red lights, actually, not whites) and IIRC Harmy has never really addressed that. I expect the nest version WILL address this better due to the availability of good-quality print scans, which wasn’t an option for previous despecializations.

FWIW, I just re-compared ROTJ DeEd vs 4K83 (Sanjuro’s regrade) and still felt DeEd compared favorably. Even in the Rancor scene, in the scenes where the monster’s color looks better in 4K83, Luke looks better in the same shots in DeEd. I guess different strokes, and so on.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Thanks, CatBus.

I don’t have my 820 networked. Maybe I will try another 4K77 version. Is there a list of them in a certain thread? Also, is there much of a downgrade from the 4K77 version converted to 1080p?

Yeah, if something could be done to alleviate that clipping (even just tuning down the intensity) would be great.
The next version where this will be addressed…will this be 720p? Sorry, still learning all of these versions. LOL

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IMO 4K77 at 4K has less fine detail than DeEd at 720p, so 1080p should be a fine option. I’m sure this will start an argument though. I don’t know much about 4K77 alternate encodes, so I can’t say much else on the subject.

Next DeEd’s are all planned to be 1080p.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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DB2 said:

Thanks, CatBus.

I don’t have my 820 networked. Maybe I will try another 4K77 version. Is there a list of them in a certain thread? Also, is there much of a downgrade from the 4K77 version converted to 1080p?

Yeah, if something could be done to alleviate that clipping (even just tuning down the intensity) would be great.
The next version where this will be addressed…will this be 720p? Sorry, still learning all of these versions. LOL

One of the main 4K77 4K encodes does have a bit of difficulty playing back on some media players and on lesser hardware. I think VLC in particular is known to struggle with it. MPC does well with it, especially with the madVR plugin enabled.

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CatBus said:

IMO 4K77 at 4K has less fine detail than DeEd at 720p, so 1080p should be a fine option. I’m sure this will start an argument though. I don’t know much about 4K77 alternate encodes, so I can’t say much else on the subject.

Next DeEd’s are all planned to be 1080p.

Great. Are these expected this year?

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DB2 said:

CatBus said:

IMO 4K77 at 4K has less fine detail than DeEd at 720p, so 1080p should be a fine option. I’m sure this will start an argument though. I don’t know much about 4K77 alternate encodes, so I can’t say much else on the subject.

Next DeEd’s are all planned to be 1080p.

Great. Are these expected this year?

Projects like these can’t really be expected in specific windows like that. I wouldn’t plan on having any of them (certainly not multiple of them) this year.

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Thanks. I’m going to take a look at the 4K77 DNR 1080p version. It sounds like there are different versions with different color timings (Rob, Sanjuro, etc.)?

One see out there is “STAR-WARS-4K77-180p-DNR-001209.$K77.1080p.DNR.35mm.x264-v1.0.nfo-yEnc”

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DB2 said:

Thanks. I’m going to take a look at the 4K77 DNR 1080p version. It sounds like there are different versions with different color timings (Rob, Sanjuro, etc.)?

One see out there is “STAR-WARS-4K77-180p-DNR-001209.$K77.1080p.DNR.35mm.x264-v1.0.nfo-yEnc”

I believe that’s Rob’s release which uses Sanjuro’s colours.
Rob also made a version 1.1 of the same thing (I don’t remember what was wrong with 1.0).

Then there’s a different version labeled 1.2. It’s done by someone else other than Rob (SkyDude) that is also using Sanjuro’s colours, but with some difference in the DNR process.

Not sure if either 1.1 or 1.2 are available on newsgroups…

Don’t quote me on any of that, I could be wrong. But that’s how I understand it.

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SnooPac said:

DB2 said:

Thanks. I’m going to take a look at the 4K77 DNR 1080p version. It sounds like there are different versions with different color timings (Rob, Sanjuro, etc.)?

One see out there is “STAR-WARS-4K77-180p-DNR-001209.$K77.1080p.DNR.35mm.x264-v1.0.nfo-yEnc”

I believe that’s Rob’s release which uses Sanjuro’s colours.
Rob also made a version 1.1 of the same thing (I don’t remember what was wrong with 1.0).

Then there’s a different version labeled 1.2. It’s done by someone else other than Rob (SkyDude) that is also using Sanjuro’s colours, but with some difference in the DNR process.

Not sure if either 1.1 or 1.2 are available on newsgroups…

Don’t quote me on any of that, I could be wrong. But that’s how I understand it.

(I’ve quoted you on that. You may be thinking of 4K83 where Rob was able to use Sanjuro’s grade on the DNR version)

IIRC, Sanjuro’s colors are great, but due to the work flow, not easily applied to the DNR version. Rob’s DNR version has his own color grading. It is maybe not as consistent as Sanjuro’s (which is very professional looking), but it’s a much more neutral grading than the very first release no-DNR. The first release had very heavy tints that people sometimes are after for these technicolor type gradings (like Harmy’s 2.5). That first grade is not my cup of tea, but both Sanjuro’s grade and Rob’s DNR grade are excellent.

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towne32 said:

SnooPac said:

DB2 said:

Thanks. I’m going to take a look at the 4K77 DNR 1080p version. It sounds like there are different versions with different color timings (Rob, Sanjuro, etc.)?

One see out there is “STAR-WARS-4K77-180p-DNR-001209.$K77.1080p.DNR.35mm.x264-v1.0.nfo-yEnc”

I believe that’s Rob’s release which uses Sanjuro’s colours.
Rob also made a version 1.1 of the same thing (I don’t remember what was wrong with 1.0).

Then there’s a different version labeled 1.2. It’s done by someone else other than Rob (SkyDude) that is also using Sanjuro’s colours, but with some difference in the DNR process.

Not sure if either 1.1 or 1.2 are available on newsgroups…

Don’t quote me on any of that, I could be wrong. But that’s how I understand it.

(I’ve quoted you on that. You may be thinking of 4K83 where Rob was able to use Sanjuro’s grade on the DNR version)

IIRC, Sanjuro’s colors are great, but due to the work flow, not easily applied to the DNR version. Rob’s DNR version has his own color grading. It is maybe not as consistent as Sanjuro’s (which is very professional looking), but it’s a much more neutral grading than the very first release no-DNR. The first release had very heavy tints that people sometimes are after for these technicolor type gradings (like Harmy’s 2.5). That first grade is not my cup of tea, but both Sanjuro’s grade and Rob’s DNR grade are excellent.

So is the 1.0 I noted above Rob’s which uses Sanjuro’s colors?