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Darth Vader's suit — Page 3

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Darth Id said:

yotsuya said:

The volcano duel has been part of my Star Wars narrative for as long as I can remember. My mother relayed it to me.

…and it was that way: the folk wisdom was passed down from Mother to son, down through the generations, until the mightly tale of the tragic SITH LORD™ DARTH VADER™ had spread to every planet throughout the Galaxy far, far away, and even beyond----to our very own Milky Way, when, a long, long time after the fateful events, an Angel™ did tell th’ Tale, full and true, to the one and only True Prophet™, the TEACHER™, GEORGIE-POO LUCA$H, and did tell unto him to spread the Tale far and wide, using picture-screens, so that the people of Earth might learn from DARTH VADER’S downfall, and not be doomed to repeat His Folly!

Also: LOL

Uh… are you off your meds? You are getting a little out there with that post.

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yotsuya said:

Uh… are you off your meds? >

No way! I took my full dose of capsules right before posting that!

Capsules

…so what’s your excuse?

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yotsuya said:

As Lucas always intended the ST be made this decade (per a quote from Mark Hammil about episode 7 coming out in 2011), that means a long gap between trilogies so holding the revelation of “the other” until the ST makes no sense. He got the fans buzzing after Empire so it makes sense his plan was always to reveal the other in Jedi. Why make them wait for 30 years.

This (like many things you’re saying) is simply not true. Lucas’s original intent was well, a lot of different things when it came to the sequels, but basically a 12 episode saga, each directed by different people except the first and last. This morphed and fluctuated with the 9 episode saga and such. The other was definitely supposed to be the subject of episode 7. Lucas decided while developing ROTJ that he was tired of the saga and wanted to tie it up (though knew he’d get back to it later).

The idea of Luke as an Obi-Wan 30 years later wasn’t decided until after ROTJ was developed. Notice that Hamill’s remarks about episode 7 in 2011 is from an interview in 1984.

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 (Edited)

I just saw Howard the Duck (1986) last night for the first time. I wonder why Lucas took a break to work on all these bizarre projects like that movie & Willow. Indiana Jones was a good movie, but the rest of his work was pretty sparse and weird. Did his divorce with Marcia really hold him back that long from working on the prequels? I wish he wouldn’t have waited so long to make the prequels. I think they would have turned out better if he didn’t take a break & continued to make & release it in the tradition of every 3 years. If TPM was made right after Jedi & came out in 1986 or 1987 I think it would have been better. He would’ve gotten the PT done by the early '90s and missed the cheesy digital era of filmmaking.

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Darth Vader1 said:

I just saw Howard the Duck (1986) last night for the first time. I wonder why Lucas took a break to work on all these bizarre projects like that movie & Willow. Indiana Jones was a good movie, but the rest of his work was pretty sparse and weird. Did his divorce with Marcia really hold him back that long from working on the prequels? I wish he wouldn’t have waited so long to make the prequels. I think they would have turned out better if he didn’t take a break & continued to make & release it in the tradition of every 3 years. If TPM was made right after Jedi & came out in 1986 or 1987 I think it would have been better. He would’ve gotten the PT done by the early '90s and missed the cheesy digital era of filmmaking.

Have you seen Strange Magic (2015)? It shows what Lucas is doing now that he’s retired from Star Wars.

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Don’t forget the Ewok tv movies. 😉

Lucas didn’t really have a lot to do with Howard, except lend his name to the project, which was being helmed by his old pals who wrote the American Graffiti script.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

As Lucas always intended the ST be made this decade (per a quote from Mark Hammil about episode 7 coming out in 2011), that means a long gap between trilogies so holding the revelation of “the other” until the ST makes no sense. He got the fans buzzing after Empire so it makes sense his plan was always to reveal the other in Jedi. Why make them wait for 30 years.

This (like many things you’re saying) is simply not true. Lucas’s original intent was well, a lot of different things when it came to the sequels, but basically a 12 episode saga, each directed by different people except the first and last. This morphed and fluctuated with the 9 episode saga and such. The other was definitely supposed to be the subject of episode 7. Lucas decided while developing ROTJ that he was tired of the saga and wanted to tie it up (though knew he’d get back to it later).

The idea of Luke as an Obi-Wan 30 years later wasn’t decided until after ROTJ was developed. Notice that Hamill’s remarks about episode 7 in 2011 is from an interview in 1984.

Except it creates a symmetry with the PT which was always going to end 20 years before ANH.

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Except thinking of Star Wars as a set of trilogies wasn’t a concept until Lucas decided to tie things up in ROTJ.

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yotsuya’s professional writer friends thought it up before Lucas.

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yotsuya said:
The problem with evidence is that it is only as good as the truth at the time.

That’s a laughable dodge of reality. Truth isn’t fluid. Uncle George wrote a story outline and several scripts. They weren’t sealed until a date decades later when the truth was to be revealed, they weren’t cryptic, nor were they a puzzle to decode as events unfolded through the years.
Your man isn’t anywhere near that deep. The story he always intended was filmed and released in 1977. What came out years later was also written years later.

There was no profound Original Vision ™ If he had everything planned from the very beginning, he wouldn’t have hired two people to write sequels to the film. The first sequel was a published novel, written in such a way as to make it something they could film. A published sequel, commissioned by and ok’d by Lucas.

he was planning the family drama from the beginning and the earliest drafts of the script bear this out.

  • “ANNIKIN STARKILLER, a tall, heavy-set boy of eighteen.”

  • *“LUKE SKYWALKER, Commander of the Aquilaean Starforce. He is a large man, apparently in his early sixties…”

  • “PRINCESS LEIA, about fourteen years old…”

  • “DARTH VADER, a tall, grim-looking general…” (age not given)

“the earliest drafts” show nothing of the sort. If you want to truly go back to the very beginning, Vader isn’t part of Star Wars. Two years later all four characters are in the story at the same time, at least two with different surnames. They are not and cannot be related in the the way you wish. No father\son, no twins. It simply isn’t possible.

Lucas has been lying about this for thirty-five years.
The only thing that seems certain about all of this is that Lucas understood that if he continually lied about something long enough some people would eventually believe it, even when the truth is easily discoverable.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Listen, it don’t really matter to me, baby.
You believe what you want to believe.

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I think the most disturbing thing I’ve ever seen was the reveal in ROTS!

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Lucas said it himself when he wrote a letter to the producers of Lost:

“Don’t tell anyone … but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories – let’s call them homages – and you’ve got a series.”

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Listen, it don’t really matter to me, baby.
You believe what you want to believe.

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Anchorhead said:

Lucas said it himself when he wrote a letter to the producers of Lost:

“Don’t tell anyone … but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories – let’s call them homages – and you’ve got a series.”

Source? (Not that I doubt it, but it’d be nice to have the proof for these very kinds of dscussions)

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 (Edited)

canofhumdingers said:

Anchorhead said:

Lucas said it himself when he wrote a letter to the producers of Lost:

“Don’t tell anyone … but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories – let’s call them homages – and you’ve got a series.”

Source?

He heard it from yotsuya’s evil twin.

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canofhumdingers said:

Anchorhead said:

Lucas said it himself when he wrote a letter to the producers of Lost:

“Don’t tell anyone … but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories – let’s call them homages – and you’ve got a series.”

Source? (Not that I doubt it, but it’d be nice to have the proof for these very kinds of dscussions)

I read it in the L.A. Times, but it was carried by lots of reputable publications when he originally sent it.

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/movies/lost-george-lucas/

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Listen, it don’t really matter to me, baby.
You believe what you want to believe.

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Anchorhead said:

yotsuya said:
The problem with evidence is that it is only as good as the truth at the time.

That’s a laughable dodge of reality. Truth isn’t fluid. Uncle George wrote a story outline and several scripts. They weren’t sealed until a date decades later when the truth was to be revealed, they weren’t cryptic, nor were they a puzzle to decode as events unfolded through the years.
Your man isn’t anywhere near that deep. The story he always intended was filmed and released in 1977. What came out years later was also written years later.

There was no profound Original Vision ™ If he had everything planned from the very beginning, he wouldn’t have hired two people to write sequels to the film. The first sequel was a published novel, written in such a way as to make it something they could film. A published sequel, commissioned by and ok’d by Lucas.

he was planning the family drama from the beginning and the earliest drafts of the script bear this out.

  • “ANNIKIN STARKILLER, a tall, heavy-set boy of eighteen.”

  • *“LUKE SKYWALKER, Commander of the Aquilaean Starforce. He is a large man, apparently in his early sixties…”

  • “PRINCESS LEIA, about fourteen years old…”

  • “DARTH VADER, a tall, grim-looking general…” (age not given)

“the earliest drafts” show nothing of the sort. If you want to truly go back to the very beginning, Vader isn’t part of Star Wars. Two years later all four characters are in the story at the same time, at least two with different surnames. They are not and cannot be related in the the way you wish. No father\son, no twins. It simply isn’t possible.

Lucas has been lying about this for thirty-five years.
The only thing that seems certain about all of this is that Lucas understood that if he continually lied about something long enough some people would eventually believe it, even when the truth is easily discoverable.

Have you actually read all the drafts? I have. Like I said, lots of family linking. I didn’t say with what characters. In one draft she has brothers. In another she is Owen and Beru’s daugher and Luke’s cousin. He seemed to change his ideas about family relationships with each draft, but was pretty consistent in their existence. That coupled with the secrecy he used for TEST and ROTJ, and you cannot prove he hadn’t planned it the way we got it. And when I said beginning, I meant when the story of ANH we are familiar with came about - after he split the story.

You also have to remember that one if his inspiration were the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials. In those there is always something new in later episodes. There is even evidence in the earlier drafts that he was thinking about sequels. And Splintered was to be a potential inexpensive sequel. The real sequel was always TESB. Bespin and Cloud City was a carry over from an earlier draft (where he’d already hired McQuarrie to do some of the art) - the same draft where the final battle involved wookies.

And then you have the name, Darth Vader. It means Dark Father and there is plenty of evidence that Lucas knew what it meant when he picked it. There is meaning to many of the names. There is no evidence of offspring in the first draft to feature that name, but soon Luke is an orphan whose father was a Jedi. Coupled with what Foster wrote in the novelization (when Ben starts to tell Luke about the past it is called a convenient lie), Guinness’s acting (which seems to indicate he is hiding something), the similar sabers, that hint that Vader might be Luke’s father from that 1978 interview, the lack of the father line in any of the TESB scripts (later drafts have a note to insert a line, but not the line itself), and the pieces fit together to point to a plan in place, not one created on the fly after the fact.

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 (Edited)

yotsuya said:
from the beginning and the earliest drafts of the script

when I said beginning, I meant when the story of ANH

Looks like you’re taking George’s advice.


We’ve been off-topic long enough, thanks to me. If you want to continue this dance, start a thread for it.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Listen, it don’t really matter to me, baby.
You believe what you want to believe.

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Anchorhead said:

yotsuya said:
from the beginning and the earliest drafts of the script

when I said beginning, I meant when the story of ANH

Looks like you’re taking George’s advice.


We’ve been off-topic long enough, thanks to me. If you want to continue this dance, start a thread for it.

To steer it back to the topic, I would add the Darth Vader was suited well prior to the final story took shape. They’ve mentioned some possible inspirations, but one that comes to mind are the samurai helmets with the black face mask. Not only does Vader’s helmet resemble the Japanese helmets (but being much closer to the head), but the face mask does as well. As so much of the rest of Star Wars comes from Samurai Cinema, I wouldn’t be surprised if Darth Vader’s look did as well. Star Wars Rebels took some inspiration from that early concept in their visual treatment of Vader, but they stuck very close to the ANH costume. I’m curious to see if Vader is in Rogue One if they took the time to get the costume right or if it is just a rehash of the ROTS costume.

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Anchorhead said:

canofhumdingers said:

Anchorhead said:

Lucas said it himself when he wrote a letter to the producers of Lost:

“Don’t tell anyone … but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories – let’s call them homages – and you’ve got a series.”

Source? (Not that I doubt it, but it’d be nice to have the proof for these very kinds of dscussions)

I read it in the L.A. Times, but it was carried by lots of reputable publications when he originally sent it.

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/movies/lost-george-lucas/

“Don’t tell anyone,” Lucas said, writing a letter that got reported by newspapers across the globe.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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yotsuya said:
I would add the Darth Vader was suited well prior to the final story took shape. They’ve mentioned some possible inspirations, but one that comes to mind are the samurai helmets with the black face mask. Not only does Vader’s helmet resemble the Japanese helmets (but being much closer to the head), but the face mask does as well. As so much of the rest of Star Wars comes from Samurai Cinema, I wouldn’t be surprised if Darth Vader’s look did as well.

I remember reading years ago that McQuarrie had a hand in steering the look when he worked on some sketches. Apparently Lucas dug it and went in that direction. The Samurai influence is pretty clear in some of the McQuarrie art that followed that new direction.

I thought it was the Deak fight but he’s already fully masked by then. Reading this McQuarrie explanation below, it’s a sketch I’ve never seen. I found this on the Star Wars site.

“Early in the script there was a description of Vader crossing between two ships in space so I created this mask so he could breathe in space, with a suggestion of teeth in the masks grillwork,” McQuarrie said. “It was not until the fourth draft that Lucas wrote in more of the backstory of Vader, with his connection to Ben Kenobi and Luke’s father, as well as the duel that followed between Ben and Vader after Vader killed Luke’s father.”

With regard to Rogue One; I hope he isn’t in it at all. And yes, I realize that’s very unlikely. If he is, I’ll be glad if it’s just a scene or a name-check. I’ve never found him to be interesting. Not when I was a kid in 77, not in the 80s films, not now. A movie without him would be just fine with me.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Listen, it don’t really matter to me, baby.
You believe what you want to believe.

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Anchorhead said:

With regard to Rogue One; I hope he isn’t in it at all. And yes, I realize that’s very unlikely. If he is, I’ll be glad if it’s just a scene or a name-check. I’ve never found him to be interesting. Not when I was a kid in 77, not in the 80s films, not now. A movie without him would be just fine with me.

Perhaps this will change your mind about him.