logo Sign In

Church Experiment(Was: Want to Read The Bible) — Page 2

Author
Time
Post link

Warbler said:

C3PX said:

 

I have a few questions:

  1. What's up with the Kings James only movement?
  2. Why would people need Bible plans? I don't find it hard to read a few chapters everyday. Maybe they're too busy.

1. Fear of change. The KJV is a very old and very outdated text. There is really no reason to be using it today. Sure, it was very accurate in its day, but we have more accurate English translations today.

old? yes.   outdated?  I don't know.

It is definitely outdated. It is outdated in that it uses an archaic form of English, and it is outdated in that it predates the Dead Sea Scrolls and it is translated from a flawed manuscript.

Calling other translations special editions would be to suggest the KJV was the original, but just like all the other versions, the KJV is a translation (or more accurately an "interpretation"). The Bible as a whole was originally written in three different languages, and none of those were English. I know a lot of people talk about how it sounds more poetic than other versions, but I think that has a lot to do with it sounding much like Shakespeare. I bet you could make people consider your grocery list poetic, if you simply add a couple of "thee"s and a few "thou"s to it. 

 

The whole notion of the KJV being the only one inerrant word of God is a very Anglo-centric way of thinking.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

I've read some of Ehrman's stuff before, he is a pretty sketchy scholar. I wouldn't carry what you read from him too far. He is a good starting point for looking into things deeper, I suppose. But he is far more a salesmen than he is a serious academic.

Which is a shame, I think such half assed scholarship of the ilk of Ehrman hurts his cause far more than helps it (though in Ehrman's case, I sincerely think his cause is simply to sell books).

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time
Post link

Nanner Split said:

C3PX and Warb, you guys might want to check out a book I read recently called Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why. It's basically a really detailed history of the Bible's translations, and there's some really interesting stuff in there. I thought it pertains to the discussion at hand.

Does it concern only English translations, or other langages too ? Very interesting.

Author
Time
Post link

Gaffer Tape said:

Well, honestly, if you want to look at it that way, the KJV is also an SE.

yeah, I know what you mean, but to me it isn't.  It is the Bible I used all through Sunday School.  The Bible they had me memorize verses out of.  It is not an SE to me.

sean wookie said:

Warbler said:

Ziz said:

you know if made jokes like this using any other religion's holy book,  people would call you a bigot.    Can you imagine the outrage in the Islamic world if it found out there was a pic of the Quran with a label on it that said "this is a work of fiction"? If you had made this joke using the Tanakh, you'd be accused of antisemitism.   But for some reason, its socially  acceptable to do this with the Christian Bible.   nice.    

 I was going to post a nice and thoughtful comment on how Atheists seem to be mostly threatened by Christians because they are the majority. Explain that we feel they encroaching on public space and government. Then say This is why they are attacked so much.

But i'm posting this image:

 

I have no desire to oppress anyone.   My feelings on freedom of religion are well known here.  I believe strongly in freedom of religion as well as the right to not practice any religion at all.   I  also believe strongly in the separation of church and state.  Just take a look at past debates I've had in this forum(namely in the political thread.    No one should oppress anyone.  

Ziz said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

George Carlin may be very funny,  but I think he is also a jerk. 

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Warbler said:

George Carlin may be very funny,  but I think he is also a jerk. 

I thought he was funny back in the 70s and 80s, but as he got older he just got weirder and angrier.  The last ten years or so, I had no interest in watching him.  He wasn't about humorous observations or clever insight - he became toxic and unpleasant.

 

Forum Moderator
Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said:

Well, honestly, if you want to look at it that way, the KJV is also an SE.

yeah, I know what you mean, but to me it isn't.  It is the Bible I used all through Sunday School.  The Bible they had me memorize verses out of.  It is not an SE to me.

sean wookie said:

Warbler said:

Ziz said:

you know if made jokes like this using any other religion's holy book,  people would call you a bigot.    Can you imagine the outrage in the Islamic world if it found out there was a pic of the Quran with a label on it that said "this is a work of fiction"? If you had made this joke using the Tanakh, you'd be accused of antisemitism.   But for some reason, its socially  acceptable to do this with the Christian Bible.   nice.    

 I was going to post a nice and thoughtful comment on how Atheists seem to be mostly threatened by Christians because they are the majority. Explain that we feel they encroaching on public space and government. Then say This is why they are attacked so much.

But i'm posting this image:

 

I have no desire to oppress anyone.   My feelings on freedom of religion are well known here.  I believe strongly in freedom of religion as well as the right to not practice any religion at all.   I  also believe strongly in the separation of church and state.  Just take a look at past debates I've had in this forum(namely in the political thread.    No one should oppress anyone.  

I never said you were oppressing anyone.  I just don't think you're the kind of person that would. I was just pointing out how in America it tends to be more appropriate to make fun of the majority rather than the minority. I just think it's okay to mock religion in general, but I won't mock people because of their religion. 

Anchorhead said:

Warbler said:

George Carlin may be very funny,  but I think he is also a jerk. 

I thought he was funny back in the 70s and 80s, but as he got older he just got weirder and angrier.  The last ten years or so, I had no interest in watching him.  He wasn't about humorous observations or clever insight - he became toxic and unpleasant.

I actually like him better during his older years, but I wouldn't use one of his quotes during a debate. Dawkins and Hitchens are used for that.

Author
Time
Post link

Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said:

Well, honestly, if you want to look at it that way, the KJV is also an SE.

yeah, I know what you mean, but to me it isn't.  It is the Bible I used all through Sunday School.  The Bible they had me memorize verses out of.  It is not an SE to me.

Strictly speaking, though, if The Bible (original manuscripts) is a divinely inspired work, does your opinion really matter?  Wouldn't alterations/misinterpretations make it less The Bible than it should be?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Post link

A B C said:

Does it concern only English translations, or other langages too ? Very interesting.

Since Ehrman writes about the original manuscripts, it could be applied to any language.

But regardless, shitty scholarship is shitty scholarship.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time
Post link

Gaffer Tape said:

Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said:

Well, honestly, if you want to look at it that way, the KJV is also an SE.

yeah, I know what you mean, but to me it isn't.  It is the Bible I used all through Sunday School.  The Bible they had me memorize verses out of.  It is not an SE to me.

Strictly speaking, though, if The Bible (original manuscripts) is a divinely inspired work, does your opinion really matter?  Wouldn't alterations/misinterpretations make it less The Bible than it should be?

well, my opinion matters to me. 

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Yes, but if we're talking about a supposed ultimate truth, unquestionable, unchanging, would you really be satisfied with the possibility that you were getting a faulty version just because it's something you feel nostalgia for? I mean we are talking about something that has been so heatedly debated, taken so seriously that people have been attacked, shunned, and even died because of it.  I dunno.  That just seems like something I wouldn't leave in the hands of nostalgia.  Seems like something I'd want to get right.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Post link

C3PX said:

A B C said:

Does it concern only English translations, or other langages too ? Very interesting.

Since Ehrman writes about the original manuscripts, it could be applied to any language.

But regardless, shitty scholarship is shitty scholarship.

Just out of curiosity, what was it that made his scholarship shitty? I seem to remember him being pretty detailed as far as citing his references and what-not.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

RE: Frink (thanks for getting in my way, Nanner.  From now on you must check to make sure it's okay with me before you post.)

Hmm. Not really sure what you're on about.  It sounds like your usual misspelling jokes, but nothing's misspelled unless you're arguing that the definite article should be capitalized.  All you've accomplished in me is that now the word looks weird as often happens when you stare at a word for too long... Thanks, Frink.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

Author
Time
Post link

Gaffer Tape said:

RE: Frink (thanks for getting in my way, Nanner.  From now on you must check to make sure it's okay with me before you post.)

Hmm. Not really sure what you're on about.  It sounds like your usual misspelling jokes, but nothing's misspelled unless you're arguing that the definite article should be capitalized.  All you've accomplished in me is that now the word looks weird as often happens when you stare at a word for too long... Thanks, Frink.

Ha-ha, I was just making a lame joke about never having heard of the Bible, and you put waaaaaaaaaaayyyy too much thought into it.

I win. :-)

Author
Time
Post link

EyeShotFirst said:

I'm a Christian and I don't read the bible, isn't that weird?

 Actually I'm pretty sure you're in the vast majority on that one.

Author
Time
Post link

A couple weeks back I was chatting with my mega-Evangelical brother in law. Nice guy, but he started saying how silly Catholicism was, because they believe in a magic hierarchy, and how some magic man (the Pope) could actually know the mind of God and it was all superstition and  foolishness.

Then he started talking about his magic, flawless book (the Bible) that perfectly expresses the mind of God.

I asked him if he saw any correlation between his view on the Catholic church, and his view on the inerrancy of the Bible, and he didn't understand the question.

Author
Time
Post link

Many of the stories in the Old Testament come from much other older cultures like ancient Sumeria, and they and others were passed orally long before being written down.

The process of compiling the canon of the New Testament was a long complicated process too.

It's a bit like pulling the story of Star Wars out of posts on OT.COM (and flaming during that debate was often a literal process).

It was a bit odd having the Pope around for the weekend because he was pushing Cardinal Newman up the ladder to sainthood.

This was a chap who saw no intrinsic evil in slavery because St Paul had tolerated it.

It is a fascinating piece of literature but if it's the word of God it's a very strange God and not one worthy of my praise.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9926/avatar2162.png

Excuse me sir, but would you perhaps maybe be interested in an alternative to the Bible?

Author
Time
Post link

Fink, are you using my likeness to peddle the Torah?

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

Author
Time
Post link

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9926/avatar2162.png

Why no, good sir, I would never dream of such a thing.  Besides, your fur is much more yellow than mine.

Author
Time
Post link

So did he misspell Galatians on the tattoo as well or just in the description?  ^_~

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.