Children: Discipline and the Consequences or Lack Thereof — Page 2

EyeShotFirst said:

It seems the more years go by, the more laws go against traditional discipline of children.

When I was a child, you still had to be good, or you would get a whippin'.

Around the late 90's it became a form of abuse to whip a child, so "Time Out" became the new form of discipline.

Now it is to the point where looking at your child wrong can have you charged with child abuse. 

 Are we actually talking about anything? What laws do you mean? What cases are you citing? Or is it just a general "kids today... liberals.... grumble grumble"

US Department of Justice statistics have juvenile crime down for the last 15 years. School violence is down. We in California had a law of that sort proposed, but it failed. To the best of my knowledge spanking is not criminal in any state. 21 states, notably Texas, still paddle kids at school. ABC News reports 65% of Americans favor spanking.

EDIT:
To be fair, I know some of you are Europans, and I can't speak to the laws or situations in Europa.

TV's Frink said:

Unfortunately, in many cases the difficulty is determining when spanking ends and beating begins.

exactly.  this is why none of it should be allowed.   The acceptability of spankings by society has led to child abuse.    Parents start out with just spanking the child,  then it gets worse and worse and and the kid ends up looking like a punching bag.  When spanking a child is acceptable by society, it therefore becomes acceptable for a parent or teacher  to lay hands on a kid.  It just can't be acceptable for parents or teachers to lay hands on kids.   It is a form of bullying.   It is also poor punishment.   Kids  do what their parents tell them to do(or not do what their parents tell them not do to)for fear of getting hit(spanked), not because they understand why what their parents are telling them to do is the right thing to do(or not because they understand why what their parents are telling them not to do is something they shouldn't be doing).   If there is something you want your child to do,  teach them why it is the right thing to do, instead of making them afraid that you'll hit(spank) them if they don't do it.    Allowing parents to spank gives them too much power.   How would the parents like it if their bosses could spank  them for failing to do their job properly?   How would they like it if police had the power to spank them?  

xhonzi said:

Just so we're clear...

Frink, Warbler, and hairy_hen: When you say "beat" or "hit" do you mean "spank" or like actual hitting and beating and stuff?

Thank you.

sorry I'm illiterate and can't read this.   I guess I wasn't spanked enough as a kid(even though I was spanked, rarely).

One more thing.   My brother and his wife have never hit nor spanked my 4 and a half year old niece.   She is very well behaved.  

I don't know Warb, while I agree with much you say, I don't think I'd go as far as saying the government shouldn't allow spanking.  Not everyone who gets spanked ends up getting beaten.

TV's Frink said:

  Not everyone who gets spanked ends up getting beaten.

not everyone, but too many do.  Its too thin a line to allow.   I don't think parents or teachers should be allowed the authority to decide when to lay hands on the kids and how far they can go.  

I agree with you on teachers...I don't believe any teacher should be allowed to spank a student.  I'm guessing xhonzi believes that as well, but I could be mistaken.

I can't tell what xhonzi thinks,  I'm too illiterate to be able to read his posts. 

xhonzi said:

But then again... I don't have a temper/violence problem.  So maybe that makes a difference.

that goes too far xhonzi.   I believe that was a deliberate reference to my personal temper problems.  It was low thing to do.  I feel I have no choice but to put you on ignore.   I really don't understand why you have to be this way with me, xhonzi.  I am done dealing with it. 

No idea. Topics like this should be discussed citing serious psychological studies (for example, beating of a certain degree have been shown to diminish a person's IQ - obviously, I'm a dumb idiot, so I can't cite any scientific article on that as of now), otherwise what's the point?

I was never spanked by my parents (I'm 21), neither is my 12 year old brother. I used to be quite "involved" in physical conflicts in school when I was a kid, as victim, perpetrator and/or mutual entertainment by engaging in "gang fights" (of no real serious degree of danger - t'wasnt NYC ghetto, yo), so not sure how that'd worked out under these or different circumstances...

but those days are long gone, and I'm in no way aggressive or abusive to anyone by now (sometimes we sort of shout at each other in the family, but mostly it's just mutual criticism over minor issues and not much more than blowing off a bit of steam - no children involved), and neither has my bro ever been.

I have somewhat of laziness / internet/entertainment addiction problem myself, but I'm successfully working on it and the only thing that "helps", if anything, is outside pressure to get stuff done.

My brother manages school, but spends a bit too much time on videogames and TV - needless to say, flaws like that are FAR removed from the borders of the "spanking territory". Discipline and working ability is gained by active thought, ego, motivation and resulting in HABIT.

But hey, maybe we just happen to share a non-aggressive personality, and are lucky to grow up in a violence-free environment?

xhonzi said:

For the record, that was not a reference to you Warbler.  I didn't expect you to take it personally and I'm sorry you did.

in that case, I accept your apology.    Perhaps I jumped the gun in assuming that you meant it personally, for that I apologize.    I am of course taking you of ignore.   I see that you have PMed me,  I will respond to that privately.

Warbler said:

xhonzi said:

For the record, that was not a reference to you Warbler.  I didn't expect you to take it personally and I'm sorry you did.

in that case, I accept your apology.    Perhaps I jumped the gun in assuming that you meant it personally, for that I apologize.    I am of course taking you of ignore.   I see that you have PMed me,  I will respond to that privately.

Doesn't the fact that you just quoted and replied to xhonzi make the action of unignoring him kinda redundant in the first place? ;)

huh?  I read his post because doubleofive quoted it.   I then responded and took xhonzi off ignore.  I see nothing redundant. 

I wonder how many closet S&M freaks were hit as children?

(I'm only half-joking here.)

What does that have to do with bikes?

Well, I'll clarify my comment I suppose, although I think you may be talking more to Warb since I don't think you should have your right to spank taken away from you.

I think that some people probably hit their kids under the guise of discipline when it's really just a beating.  I mean, most people that actually beat their kids probably have some self-justification for it.

Hey wait a minute...

You don't spank guests, do you?

Warbler said:

huh?  I read his post because doubleofive quoted it.   I then responded and took xhonzi off ignore.  I see nothing redundant. 

Maybe they should modify the ignore function so the ignored user's posts aren't even visible in quotes... although that'd be pretty fucking hard to program I guess... otherwise the actual ignore function is pretty useless isn't it.

:D

xhonzi said:

There are other adults I trust with my kids enough to let them spank them.  It's a pretty short list.  I wouldn't condone teachers spanking my kids, but I don't have much of an opinion on them spanking other kids, as long as they had the parents' consent.

re:

TV's Frink said:

Unfortunately, in many cases the difficulty is determining when spanking ends and beating begins.

Warb:
exactly.  this is why none of it should be allowed.   The acceptability of spankings by society has led to child abuse.    Parents start out with just spanking the child,  then it gets worse and worse and and the kid ends up looking like a punching bag. 

Allow me to crib from TheBoost:

Are we actually talking about anything? What laws abuse do you mean? What cases are you citing? Or is it just a general "kids today... spanking leads to abuse.... grumble grumble"?

I don't know of any abuse that started out as spanking.  There's a clear, thick line (maybe 8pts) between abuse and spanking from where I can see it.

I am not sure how you see the line as being so clear.  

xhonzi said: I don't personally know of any kids (or wives, for that matter) that look like punching bags... 

well just watch the news you are sure to see some. 

xhonzi said:

And I think most of the parents I know (maybe 80%?) spank.

most parents that I know don't spank.  

xhonzi said:

Seriously.  Are there lots of "carried away" parents that start spanking their kids and end up beating them?  Do you mean that after a couple swats to the bottom, it progresses to a point of real violence within seconds?

no, of course not in seconds.

xhonzi said:

  Or more that, overtime, gentle paddles on the rear-end lead to more violent forms of abuse as they get older? 

this is what I mean.   sometimes the paddling gets worse if the life of the parent worsens.    Also I'd be willing to bet there is a good chance that those who abused their children were themselves paddled(or worse) by their parents.

xhonzi said:

I know of no actual real world occurances of either, but maybe I'm just blissfully ignorant to it.  Or maybe it's just rampant speculation.

I suppose it is part educated guesswork on my part,  but it seems to make sense. 

TV's Frink said:

I think that some people probably hit their kids under the guise of discipline when it's really just a beating.  I mean, most people that actually beat their kids probably have some self-justification for it.

exactly. 

twooffour said:

Warbler said:

huh?  I read his post because doubleofive quoted it.   I then responded and took xhonzi off ignore.  I see nothing redundant. 

Maybe they should modify the ignore function so the ignored user's posts aren't even visible in quotes... although that'd be pretty fucking hard to program I guess... otherwise the actual ignore function is pretty useless isn't it.

 

:D

but that were true, I would have never seen xhonzi's apology.  

^True, but I haven't changed my opinion since I had kids.

HotRod said:

Wait till you have Kids Warb.....Things change!

I doubt that will ever happen.   I'd need to find the mother first.  :(

Also, aren't you afraid of what might happen when the kid grows big enough and strong enough to hit you back?