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Children: Discipline and the Consequences or Lack Thereof

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It seems the more years go by, the more laws go against traditional discipline of children.

When I was a child, you still had to be good, or you would get a whippin'.

Around the late 90's it became a form of abuse to whip a child, so "Time Out" became the new form of discipline.

Now it is to the point where looking at your child wrong can have you charged with child abuse. 

My questions are:

Do you think it is better for the child to be raised without discipline?

Do you think parents are becoming too soft?

What consequences will come from discipline, or lack of discipline?

How where you raised?

 

I am not a parent, but I hope to someday.

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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As a 6th grade teacher, I can honestly say I wish corporal punishment was still allowed.  Some of these kids are practically getting away with murder.

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My background:I'm a somewhat spoiled senior in high school who deals with middle schoolers frequently as senior patrol leader in his scout troop. Having been that spoiled awkward kid, I think I have a decent idea of how to be the brat.
I've turned out all right, so far, though.

This is an interesting question. My nuclear family hasn't been particularly affectionate towards one another for a number of years; however, when I was young, we loved each other very much. I received on occasion what I would call tough love, serious lectures or shouting fits from one parent or the other. It takes a lot (and did) of disrespect for my parents to ever touch me. I think that's the way to go: serious lectures, occasional tough love, but never beating.

Our extended-substitute-teacher for English said that he believes parents are more interested today in children having happy childhoods than teaching them to be good people. I'm inclined to agree, which is why there seems to be a lack of discipline in many of the "little monsters" found today all around. I believe in teaching moral standards while allowing children to be themselves, but never forgetting what they get taught. Even if it means being harsh, better to raise good children than brats who look on their happy childhood with nostalgia and fail to move on.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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What Plans? said:

As a 6th grade teacher, I can honestly say I wish corporal punishment was still allowed.  Some of these kids are practically getting away with murder.

I tell you what it works. I was being an asshole in class when I was in the 4th grade, I was sent to the office, and got 10 good ones with a paddle.

I was good kid after that.

Back in those days we had no other choice to be good in school, because we feared the consequences. Kids have no consequences these days, or at least they don't see the fact that there future is destroyed as a consequence at the time.

As far as parenting, I can count on one hand how many times my parents hit me. That is simply because the idea of a spanking was always in my mind, so I tried to do good.

It is not something a parent should enjoy, but if it sculpts the child into a better person, I agree with it.

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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It's a toughie.  There are a lot of bad parents out there, so laws that prevent kids from actual mistreatment are pretty necessary.  I think we used to trust parents not to murder their own kids in the swimming pool, or sexually assault them.  For some reason, parents as a group have lost this trust and now every little thing parents do is up for scrutiny.

I spank my kids when they deserve it.  Let me rephrase that- I spank my kids when it's for their good and not when it's just for my own.  At least, that's my intention.  I'm sure many of you wouldn't condone this.

I think my kids are pretty good.  By that I mean they are (mostly) well behaved and are concerned for the wellfare of others.  They are kids, so they act up from time to time.  But they know what my wife's and my expectations of them are- what the rules of the house are- and what the consequences are.  Seems to be working pretty well.

(For referrence, my kids are B8, G6, G4, B2)

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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xhonzi said:

(For referrence, my kids are B8, G6, G4, B2)

You sunk my battleship!

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Don't worry, I won't change even if someone tries to beat it out of me...

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Don't worry Fink. There's wiggle room with children, but no excuse for beating someone past retirement.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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What Plans? said:

As a 6th grade teacher, I can honestly say I wish corporal punishment was still allowed. 

I'm sorry, but it sickens to read that someone thinks it ought be acceptable to hit children.    

xhonzi said:

I spank my kids when I think they deserve it.  Let me rephrase that- I spank my kids when I think it's for their good and not when it's just for my own.  At least, that's my intention.  I'm sure many of you wouldn't condone this.

fixed, and you're right, I don't condone it. 

I consider those that hit kids to be bullies. 

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xhonzi said:

 For some reason, parents as a group have lost this trust and now every little thing parents do is up for scrutiny.

they've lost that trust because too many parents decided to use their kids as punching bags to take their anger at the rest of the whole world out on.  They've also tended to use hitting to punish their kids just because they disagree with them politically.   I'm sure a lot of kids in the 60's were beat because they came  out against the Vietnam War.    Also some parents get drunk or high and then beating their kids seems like a fine idea.    TO MAKE IT CLEAR, I AM NOT SAYING NOR IMPLYING THAT THE ABOVE IS TRUE FOR XHONZI OR ANY OTHER FORUM MEMBER HERE.  

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Yes, it's true.  I beat my kids because they came out against the Vietnam War.  And due to their use of the word "there" when they meant "their". 

 

They'll learn.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Warbler said:

What Plans? said:

As a 6th grade teacher, I can honestly say I wish corporal punishment was still allowed. 

I'm sorry, but it sickens to read that someone thinks it ought be acceptable to hit children.    

xhonzi said:

I spank my kids when they I think deserve it.  Let me rephrase that- I spank my kids when I think it's for their good and not when it's just for my own.  At least, that's my intention.  I'm sure many of you wouldn't condone this.

fixed, and you're right. 

I consider those that hit kids to be bullies. 

Oh, c'mon, Warb.  Now, you're just putting typos in my posts to make it look like I'm as illiterate as you.

(looks like someone needed to be spanked more as a kid)

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Xhonzi, poor taste. Know your audience, clearly this issue is not something Warbler takes lightly. Hell, nobody should.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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xhonzi said:

Yes, it's true.  I beat my kids because they came out against the Vietnam War.  And due to their use of the word "there" when they meant "their". 

 

They'll learn.

I committed the typo only once.  and I've now gone back and fixed it.

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xhonzi said:

Oh, c'mon, Warb.  Now, you're just putting typos in my posts to make it look like I'm as illiterate as you.

I corrected the typo I made. 

xhonzi said:

Yes, it's true.  I beat my kids because they came out against the Vietnam War. 

apparently someone didn't read all of my post.   I'll repost the part of my post that you missed.

Warbler said:

   TO MAKE IT CLEAR, I AM NOT SAYING NOR IMPLYING THAT THE ABOVE IS TRUE FOR XHONZI OR ANY OTHER FORUM MEMBER HERE.  

I'm surprised that you missed it considered that I both bolded it and underlined it.

xhonzi said:

Oh, c'mon, Warb.  Now, you're just putting typos in my posts to make it look like I'm as illiterate as you.

(looks like someone needed to be spanked more as a kid)

typical rude xhonzi.  One of the reasons I can't talk politics anymore. 

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I'm gonna go beat myself until things calm down in here...

...wait a minute....

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Beating kids is a pretty freakin' awful thing to do--it's tyranny by those who have power against those who don't.  I find it to be the height of ignorant arrogance for so-called 'adults' to think that causing pain and humiliation is the only way to teach any kind of moral lesson.  While it's true that the threat of force can be a powerful motivator to refrain from doing wrong, ultimately it only breeds fear and mistrust, and when the self-will of the child becomes strong enough, their need to rebel and strike back will drive them to increasingly outlandish displays of defiance.  In turn, they will repeat the cycle of tyranny against their own children.

It's much more beneficial to make a serious effort to treat children as real people who can understand why something is wrong, building a strong foundation for them to be able to make good decisions, rather than simply instilling a Pavlovian response with no real comprehension behind it.  A certain level of threat and use of power is always going to be present in parent-child relationships, but it must be tempered with restraint and understanding of how they can be affected by its misuse.

I was never hit as a child.  I didn't need to be--unlike some, my parents aren't savages, and they taught me well.  I never got away with nearly as much as other kids, and wasn't even remotely spoiled, but I was never deprived or made to feel worthless or intimidated.  Ultimately, I think I'm a lot better off than people who were.

I don't actually like kids in general all that much, because a lot of them really do seem to be horrid little arse bandits.  But I think their idiot parents are worse, because they clearly had nothing better to do than pump out more units to fawn over as if they were the best thing that ever happened to the world.  Sorry folks, but your little rotscum isn't something that I care about even the slightest bit, and the fact that you had it before you hit 20 just shows how shortsighted you are.  Hell, I'm 26 and I'm still learning to take care of myself, much less anyone else!  Sometimes I really think that people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce unless they've passed some kinds of tests on responsibility and personality and so forth.  They make you jump all kinds of hoops to adopt a kid, but any schmo with working genitals can make one on their own?  How does that make sense?

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The fact of the matter is, any consequences you could possibly give your children are slowly all becoming "child abuse" in the eyes of this country.

I can understand hitting children being seen as abuse, it's a shaky issue. It is just the shear fact that parent's won't be able to punish their children soon, that angers me.

Mark my words, 10 years from now we won't even be able to look at a child wrong without it being defined as "Abuse".

The worst kids are often the ones whose parents do nothing, or even worse, do too much.

While I was spanked (not beat) as a child, it was a rare occurrence, and it was when I was really bad. It really didn't hurt physically at all, it was more emotional than anything. Yet, it kept me in line. I hated it when I was a kid, but now I look at it as more positive than anything. I would say I had it pretty easy for a kid.

My parents didn't enjoy doing it, though there are sick parents out there that get excitement from it.

Other kids did more damage to me than my parents ever could.

 

 

"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas

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Just so we're clear...

Frink, Warbler, and hairy_hen: When you say "beat" or "hit" do you mean "spank" or like actual hitting and beating and stuff?

Thank you.

IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!

"[George Lucas] rebooted the franchise in 1997 without telling anyone." -skyjedi2005

"Yeah, well, George says a lot of things..." a young 1997 xhonzi on RASSM

"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.

Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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Well, I meant that spanking is not my style and I don't believe in it.  Clearly there is a difference between beating and spanking.  Beating your kids should result in some sort of punishment from the law.  Spanking is a personal parenting choice and I don't think it is my place to say is wrong.  I disagree with using it, but that's my choice.

Unfortunately, in many cases the difficulty is determining when spanking ends and beating begins.

Also, my kids are perfect and never do anything wrong because they were taught to be perfect and therefore there is no need to discipline them. ;-)

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EyeShotFirst said:

It seems the more years go by, the more laws go against traditional discipline of children.

When I was a child, you still had to be good, or you would get a whippin'.

Around the late 90's it became a form of abuse to whip a child, so "Time Out" became the new form of discipline.

Now it is to the point where looking at your child wrong can have you charged with child abuse. 

 What are we talking about? Are there actual laws or incidents you're citing here? Or just a vague "kids today... grumble grumble" kind of sentiment?