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Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's

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 (Edited)

I posted this in another thread, but felt it was out of place and going to be moved anyway, so here it is…

People have strong feelings on the new Disney saga and just like back in the day when we complained about stuff in the prequels, people tried to justify it with examples from the classic films. I was asking if a new fan edit of ROTJ was going to take the new movies into account. It was being suggested that Rey going from being proficient with a staff to a lightsaber was more believable than Luke going from a T-16 to an X-Wing.

It’s a lot easier to justify weird stuff in the new movies by referencing precedents in the Prequel Trilogy and/or the EU (the EU is actually where most everything “new” is coming from these days, I think people have forgotten, at least a portion of those things, good or bad, are from rejected concepts from the first three movies – most modern fans probably never read the old scripts or “legends”: another usage I dislike). Rey being a wunderkind is more like Anakin being a wunderkind in Episode I, though at least there we are given all kinds suggestions that Anakin is some special anomaly, and we know he’s been working with machines for years. Rey is still a step up from that kind of natural ability, in the absence of some later reveal that she had memory loss of how she acquired skills. TLJ puts a damper on that speculation, however.

One funny thing, the notion that Rey is not a Mary Sue (or that Luke is a Gary Stu, so that makes it okay) is off. As thousands of others have pointed out, Luke suddenly knowing how to use a lightsaber (after training with Yoda) does actually make a certain amount of sense (and even if some of those scenes were deleted, they’re described in the novelization that was released before the movie). While Luke is portrayed (and assumed in other canon) to have just flown the equivalent of an aeroplane before he jumped into an X-Wing, with only a few seconds of doubt from Red Leader (and he gets the hang of it in minutes, notice Luke only goofs up a few things during the battle)… Rey on the other hand flat out admits she’s never left the planet, she doesn’t know why she has skills, and flies the Falcon for the first time at least as well (if not better) than Han or Lando do in ESB or ROTJ respectively (Han is even implied to be impressed with her). So she got less training in both areas before she was shown to be talented and effective, whereas Luke spends much more time failing and screwing up. Watch the movies again and tell me I’m wrong.

TFA flat out leads us to believe that the Force gives proficiency and skills to a person they lacked before. At the time I saw it in theaters I interpreted JJ as following the EU notion that certain “artifacts” are imbued with power, such that when the right person “touches” them, they not only get the memories that were put into that object, but the abilities that were granted to it. It’s the old “magic sword, makes you a hero” trope from fantasy. While this existed in various forms in the EU, it was something new for the movies. IF we accept it, then no explanation for Rey’s powers are required. She doesn’t have to be some chosen one vergence of the midichlorians. Many speculated from TFA (rightly so) that Rey was going to be someone who simply had their memory erased by trauma and the dark side. I have so little invested in the franchise at this point though, I really don’t care if they bother to explain it adequately. Some probably love this interpretation of Star Wars Lore, more power to them.

The last thing that bugs me about any of this are the excuses that have been offered (not accusing anyone in these forums, but elsewhere in media) to defend TFA and TLJ, suggesting that one is a misogynist, a right-winger, a racist, or someone who is too old or jaded to appreciate new things… if they offer such criticisms. Or saying head canon and expectations were too high. I only asked for good movies, and they gave us garbage (millions disagree… I don’t care), but my expectations have been very, very low since 2005. This is why I have to clarify when I say I’m a “Star Wars fan” that I’m not a fanboy who loves everything with the logo on it, and don’t feel I have to justify everything the company that owns the IP does (anymore today than I did when George was in charge, and he made his share of mistakes with his own creations). It’s one thing when these attempts to demonize critics of a movie come from fans, but when they are mouthed by the cast, crew, or other people representing the franchise, that really sours a person’s fandom, let me tell you. I could ignore this poisonous atmosphere a lot easier if the product they were putting out was consistently good.

Thankfully, my experience of OT.com is not like that. I see a lot more openness, creativity, and comradery here than I’ve seen in a long time in any fan community associated with Star Wars, for obvious reasons. If only that attitude would spread. MTFBWY

<i>TCBOO</i>

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I agree with you completely. Nice to see that another great mind thinks alike. 😉

I can answer almost all questions anyone might have about the Sith from Star Wars Legends, and please do PM me for the bd25 DEED(Despecalised Editions), as I have this version, though I can’t answer technical questions about them. Do not go gentle into that good night, Though wise men at their end know dark is right, They
Do not go gentle into that good night.
“Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.” - SilverWook
Feel the love.

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Yes to all of this. Very deflated by the ST and probably gonna skip 9. 6 was a good ending.

Probably just going to stick with Dave Filonis work from now on. He seems to get it. The GOT guys might make something good too.

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LordZerome1080 said:

I agree with you completely. Nice to see that another great mind thinks alike. 😉

Thanks. I realize above my post gives the impression that I’m arguing “off screen” stuff counts for explaining flaws (by omission) in a movie. I’ve long maintained actually that a movie should stand on its own merits, without requiring that you consume supplemental books, comics, games, etc. to have it make sense. Where it counts is that I will favor these explanations (especially material made at the same time by the original creators) over fan imaginations (or even later “canon” tie-ins) as to what was intended.

In the trajectory of the movies, Luke starts out with merely picking up a lightsaber and making a few practice swings (some say he nearly missed hitting Obi-Wan, who quickly sits down away from him). The next time we see him turn it on, he’s clearly been training at least for a little while on the Falcon with Ben. This is all within the first movie and the introduction of Luke to a lightsaber. This is already a much more believable transition from Luke not knowing what the Force is to being able to go “toe to toe” with Vader. We can then move on to ESB where Luke is trained (again, for an indefinite period of time) by Yoda, with the lightsaber action only shown in the “vision” of the cave and the rest in deleted scenes (made finally officially publicly available with the blu-ray “saga” release in 2011… though we knew these existed from the comics and novelization back in '80). When Luke DOES fight Vader, he’s clumsy, and its made clear that Vader was not actually trying to murder him in the fight. Luke was beat up before he scored a (lucky) shot on Vader, but then was swiftly beaten.

Obviously, TFA was copying ESB here (not merely ANH, as it did for most of the movie), but it always struck me as stupid. Sure, Kylo Ren killed the rest of the New Jedi, but its implied he basically wiped out a bunch of noobs with the help of some gang (we have no idea of their power levels or abilities). It could have all been some kind of trickery or deus ex machina, it’s never clearly explained in the movies. Apart from a neat trick with stopping blaster bolts (and freezing Rey at one point), Kylo seems clumsy and amateur compared to what we’ve seen Jedi do in the past (the prequels are still canon with these episodes). Rey demonstrates very little skill, she mostly does the same move over and over again (but Ren doesn’t seem able to really beat her). Yet she still beats a character that, in-movie, was trained for years by Masters. No other Jedi demonstrates this kind of “second wind.” Obi-Wan got lucky, and he still needed the emotional trauma of his master cut down in front of him as the motivation, just as Luke needed the thought of Leia being turned to the Dark Side for his “burst of anger.” Rey just “remembered” she had the Force, and that was that (but he survives due to another poorly edited deus ex machina).

Yes, Kylo was “wounded before the fight” (taking a “bowcastor” shot to the gut, a weapon that is shown to be more powerful than your average blaster in the same movie), and he does beat Finn, who has no force powers… but Finn scores a hit on him (a la Luke scoring on Vader) before getting beaten down (and implausibly surviving, though his survival was in doubt until the next movie). There is no good reason why this should have happened other than that Kylo in fact sucks. He has been training for decades (presumably) with this Snoke fellow, but I guess he has rested on his laurels and didn’t get to do much.

This all goes along with the “saber imparts magical skill to the user” trope though. Finn touching Anakin’s saber gives him some basic skills. Prior to this we could speculate that he trained in melee combat like the “shock prod trooper” he loses to earlier in the movie. This part was not that objectionable. It was that he did so well against this supposed “Master” that was goofy, and felt to me like they were trying to swerve us that Finn had the Force too.

What people always gloss over, is that Rey got thrown against a tree and knocked out before her “victory” over Kylo, but nobody uses that as an excuse. They were both wounded in the fight, and we don’t have any indication that Rey has the mutant force healing ability. In fact, it’s made to appear that she doesn’t even use the Force until Kylo utters the stupid villain line while their blades are locked up and closes her eyes.

I am not saying the Force is only around when somebody closes their eyes and the music plays, but I am also not one who wants to use the Force as a catch all magic wand to wave away any film making mistakes or writing conveniences. So the lightsaber is magic, Rey is special (somehow) and Kylo Ren sucks. These are kids playing with lightsabers in their back yard, not seasoned Jedi, and they have far less valid excuses than Luke did in the OT.

If this were a video game made in 2002, Kylo would have force pulled the saber out of Finn’s hand, and cut him down in seconds. He would have done the same to Rey unless she somehow blocked him or had outside help.

Lightsabers do in fact consistently “slice and dice” in all of the movies, except for ROTJ, and this scene. Finn should have been cut in half, and Kylo should have lost the top of his head. Why Count Dooku didn’t kill Obi-Wan outright in Episode II is tougher to explain but at least we can imagine a master of his caliber can pull his punches when he wants to. No such explanation really flies here.

The whole issue of Luke’s flight ability is a problem sure, but Episode I did try to deal with it, by saying the Droid autopiloting in these things is so good that even a little kid can pilot one (and he still did terrible until he “got lucky,” wunderkind style). But, that is an after the fact rationalization within the canon, no different than if somebody made a movie two decades from now that explained away the problems in TFA. We do know they have droids and computers to help the pilots, and that’s the extent of it in the actual movie.

The bottom line is that the main protagonist of this new trilogy is too perfect, and the main antagonist, despite being promoted as powerful, seems far too inept to be a worthy threat. I have no faith in Episode IX, and even if its a good thing that hack JJ Abrams is going to patch up the mess bigger hack Rian Johnson left for him, I don’t really care. It would be too little, too late. Unlike some other fans, I’m not going to say promise that “well if they get this wrong, I only plan to pay to see the next 10 movies and THEN I quit!!!” I was done after TLJ. I watched Solo for free on DVD from my library a year after release (and read all the spoilers ahead of time). I don’t plan to see “the rise of skywalker” in theaters (the trailer did nothing to get me excited, and the trailers are usually the best things about these movies) and I’ll only watch (at home) it if I get positive recommendations from people I trust not to let their fanboy tendencies get away with them. 😉

As far as I’m concerned, the only thing that matters with “critical scores” is the Rotten Tomatoes audience score, which it sounds like RT is trying to neuter for fear of upsetting the corporate overlords who give critics access as advertising promoters more than consumer informers. I prefer to trust people I know who have seen the movie and I know what their tastes are. I just don’t want to waste anymore of my time and money on bad movies (unless they are so danged hilarious that I’ll get enjoyment just out of their sheer ineptness, but even then I’m not paying full price!).

<i>TCBOO</i>

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If this were a video game made in 2002, Kylo would have force pulled the saber out of Finn’s hand, and cut him down in seconds.

My perspective is so fundamentally different from this - it’s honestly kinda fascinating how some people can look at things and interpret them so distinctly.

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DominicCobb said:

If this were a video game made in 2002, Kylo would have force pulled the saber out of Finn’s hand, and cut him down in seconds.

My perspective is so fundamentally different from this - it’s honestly kinda fascinating how some people can look at things and interpret them so distinctly.

I agree with your statement, it is what I thought after reading the OP.

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dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

If this were a video game made in 2002, Kylo would have force pulled the saber out of Finn’s hand, and cut him down in seconds.

My perspective is so fundamentally different from this - it’s honestly kinda fascinating how some people can look at things and interpret them so distinctly.

I agree with your statement, it is what I thought after reading the OP.

Cool. So what’re your explanations as to why that didn’t happen (other than being unsatisfying for the audience)?

Are you agreeing that Kylo Ren actually sucks as a dark side villain?

As presented, he seems like a noob who knows a couple of tricks and that’s it. He’s symptomatic of the entire First Order really. It’s like the trope of the Empire being inept bad guys has grown into this. At least when things started off, they were a credible threat, even allowing for typical expected things like character shields for the main cast. But yet, somehow, TFA and then TLJ portray the bad guys as taking over the entire galaxy, losing it again, then taking it over again virtually overnight. They’re copying this directly from the EU (“Legends”), but it still sucks. The villains are talented at killing unarmed civilians, but anyone who stands up to them with a weapon is going to take them down a notch or at least leave a mark (Anti-Bullying PSA inserted here)

So not only is Rey OP, but her competition is deliberately dumb, to drive down the tension even more. At this point stuff is happening and its just seemingly random “will of the force” (writer fiat) than anything. That’s why I gave up on the Harry Potter movies (should have read the books instead?). The rules are all up in the air now… which would have been fine if there had not already been several movies before these!

<i>TCBOO</i>

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DougieP said:

Yes to all of this. Very deflated by the ST and probably gonna skip 9. 6 was a good ending.

Probably just going to stick with Dave Filonis work from now on. He seems to get it. The GOT guys might make something good too.

I never gave GOT a chance, partly because I needlessly ignore any popular hyped tv series (Lost, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Walking Dead), but also because it struck me as a low-rent LOTR that was trying way too hard to be edgy and iconoclastic (there’s a reason LOTR is still beloved, and it’s not because its fans are gullible, racist or stupid). People love it though… I personally can’t wait until its over and I can stop hearing about it. 😉 Being a hard-core jaded cynical curmudgeon ain’t easy!

That they will keep making Star Wars movies forever is understandable. Who can say “no” to all of that money? But I’d rather it die than keep going down the drain like this (and foster a toxic divided fandom as well). To me the stories of these movies would have been better as video games or comics than as legit “canon” installment in the film saga. They’re just the sort of thing you’d expect as a convenient excuse to insert the player into the action and do stuff within the universe that you wanted.

<i>TCBOO</i>

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KurganX said:

DougieP said:

Yes to all of this. Very deflated by the ST and probably gonna skip 9. 6 was a good ending.

Probably just going to stick with Dave Filonis work from now on. He seems to get it. The GOT guys might make something good too.

I never gave GOT a chance, partly because I needlessly ignore any popular hyped tv series (Lost, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Walking Dead), but also because it struck me as a low-rent LOTR that was trying way too hard to be edgy and iconoclastic (there’s a reason LOTR is still beloved, and it’s not because its fans are gullible, racist or stupid). People love it though… I personally can’t wait until its over and I can stop hearing about it. 😉 Being a hard-core jaded cynical curmudgeon ain’t easy!

That they will keep making Star Wars movies forever is understandable. Who can say “no” to all of that money? But I’d rather it die than keep going down the drain like this (and foster a toxic divided fandom as well). To me the stories of these movies would have been better as video games or comics than as legit “canon” installment in the film saga. They’re just the sort of thing you’d expect as a convenient excuse to insert the player into the action and do stuff within the universe that you wanted.

Never watched it myself ether but according to some news sites, the GoT guys agree that Star Wars is currently “lacking decent storytelling” so thats promising.

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No one has ever force grabbed a saber out of someone’s hand in any of these movies. You seem to think about these things in terms of logical technical rules of how things should literally work - like a video game. But for me movies are not video games. The way I look at it is that plot and technical abilities are simply in service to the story and characters, not the other way around.

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KurganX said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

If this were a video game made in 2002, Kylo would have force pulled the saber out of Finn’s hand, and cut him down in seconds.

My perspective is so fundamentally different from this - it’s honestly kinda fascinating how some people can look at things and interpret them so distinctly.

I agree with your statement, it is what I thought after reading the OP.

Cool. So what’re your explanations as to why that didn’t happen (other than being unsatisfying for the audience)?

Are you agreeing that Kylo Ren actually sucks as a dark side villain?

As presented, he seems like a noob who knows a couple of tricks and that’s it. He’s symptomatic of the entire First Order really. It’s like the trope of the Empire being inept bad guys has grown into this. At least when things started off, they were a credible threat, even allowing for typical expected things like character shields for the main cast. But yet, somehow, TFA and then TLJ portray the bad guys as taking over the entire galaxy, losing it again, then taking it over again virtually overnight. They’re copying this directly from the EU (“Legends”), but it still sucks. The villains are talented at killing unarmed civilians, but anyone who stands up to them with a weapon is going to take them down a notch or at least leave a mark (Anti-Bullying PSA inserted here)

So not only is Rey OP, but her competition is deliberately dumb, to drive down the tension even more. At this point stuff is happening and its just seemingly random “will of the force” (writer fiat) than anything. That’s why I gave up on the Harry Potter movies (should have read the books instead?). The rules are all up in the air now… which would have been fine if there had not already been several movies before these!

I meant the original post in this thread, not that specific quoted line about kylo. am i still cool?

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KurganX said:

dahmage said:

DominicCobb said:

If this were a video game made in 2002, Kylo would have force pulled the saber out of Finn’s hand, and cut him down in seconds.

My perspective is so fundamentally different from this - it’s honestly kinda fascinating how some people can look at things and interpret them so distinctly.

I agree with your statement, it is what I thought after reading the OP.

Cool. So what’re your explanations as to why that didn’t happen (other than being unsatisfying for the audience)?

Are you agreeing that Kylo Ren actually sucks as a dark side villain?

As presented, he seems like a noob who knows a couple of tricks and that’s it. He’s symptomatic of the entire First Order really. It’s like the trope of the Empire being inept bad guys has grown into this. At least when things started off, they were a credible threat, even allowing for typical expected things like character shields for the main cast. But yet, somehow, TFA and then TLJ portray the bad guys as taking over the entire galaxy, losing it again, then taking it over again virtually overnight. They’re copying this directly from the EU (“Legends”), but it still sucks. The villains are talented at killing unarmed civilians, but anyone who stands up to them with a weapon is going to take them down a notch or at least leave a mark (Anti-Bullying PSA inserted here)

So not only is Rey OP, but her competition is deliberately dumb, to drive down the tension even more. At this point stuff is happening and its just seemingly random “will of the force” (writer fiat) than anything. That’s why I gave up on the Harry Potter movies (should have read the books instead?). The rules are all up in the air now… which would have been fine if there had not already been several movies before these!

Agreed my friend. I think that they should have just adapted the Emperor “clone saga” thing and been done with it.

I can answer almost all questions anyone might have about the Sith from Star Wars Legends, and please do PM me for the bd25 DEED(Despecalised Editions), as I have this version, though I can’t answer technical questions about them. Do not go gentle into that good night, Though wise men at their end know dark is right, They
Do not go gentle into that good night.
“Star Wars is a buffet, enjoy the stuff you want, and leave the rest.” - SilverWook
Feel the love.

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I honestly believe that JJ and co. really didn’t think about this stuff. This is true, to an extent, of Lucas as well. George would just throw stuff in there and hope we didn’t notice the contradictions. With the new films it seems like the writers are going “hey, such and such sounds cool, let’s do that” without thinking about the lore or how it might look in context. Rey’s big victory at the end of TFA (when she kicked Kylo’s butt) was largely because someone told JJ that she needed a ‘big moment’. Okay, one ‘big moment’ coming up…

My preferred interpretation of the Force is the one presented in Star Wars and Empire - it’s an energy field that can be tapped into with serious discipline and training. That’s it.

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screams in the void said:

to be fair , the film makers actually acknowledge in The Last Jedi that Rey’s powers are not the norm . Snoke says to Kylo , "you were unbalanced , bested by a girl who never held a lightsaber "!

The film makers do but, more importantly, the characters within the film don’t. For example Yoda trained jedi for years, including Luke. Very difficult task but Rey doesn’t need any at all. Yet Yoda doesn’t say “Amazing this is. Need to watch her we do. This much power, pull her to the dark side it can” or anything like that at all. No one bats an eye as if this is the norm.

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DougieP said:

screams in the void said:

to be fair , the film makers actually acknowledge in The Last Jedi that Rey’s powers are not the norm . Snoke says to Kylo , "you were unbalanced , bested by a girl who never held a lightsaber "!

The film makers do but, more importantly, the characters within the film don’t. For example Yoda trained jedi for years, including Luke. Very difficult task but Rey doesn’t need any at all. Yet Yoda doesn’t say “Amazing this is. Need to watch her we do. This much power, pull her to the dark side it can” or anything like that at all. No one bats an eye as if this is the norm.

Have you seen the film?

JEDIT: I’m sorry, it occurred to me the line I’m thinking of is in the trailer as well

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DominicCobb said:

DougieP said:

screams in the void said:

to be fair , the film makers actually acknowledge in The Last Jedi that Rey’s powers are not the norm . Snoke says to Kylo , "you were unbalanced , bested by a girl who never held a lightsaber "!

The film makers do but, more importantly, the characters within the film don’t. For example Yoda trained jedi for years, including Luke. Very difficult task but Rey doesn’t need any at all. Yet Yoda doesn’t say “Amazing this is. Need to watch her we do. This much power, pull her to the dark side it can” or anything like that at all. No one bats an eye as if this is the norm.

Have you seen the film?

JEDIT: I’m sorry, it occurred to me the line I’m thinking of is in the trailer as well

Yes, 3 times. I had to rack my brain to realise what you are talking about. You mean Luke, right? “I’ve seen this raw strength only once before in Ben Solo. It didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.” I guess your right, you got me there.

I guess i’m just looking for more. Outside of this line its not addressed (your probably going to correct me again here?) at least not to the extent that I would expect. For example, my partner has no idea at all how to drive a car. Not a single thing. I had to tell her what a clutch was for a while back. If I put her in a Formula 1 car she wouldn’t be able to win the race. If she did though, imagine how insane that would be. Everyone would be chatting about it.

Rey is very similar to this. Picking up the lightsaber (it started before this actually) and just wins and wins. Its a very different way of becoming a master that we have never seen before. Even the “chosen one” needed training. Why wasn’t there are conversation about it between Yoda and Luke? It doesn’t seem like LF are going to address it ether.

The only way I can possibly think on how to explain this whole thing is that Snoke was Darth Plagueis. Plagueis could bring people back to life/create life, he created Anakin as he had no dad. Snoke/Plagueis found a way to bring himself back to life in the afterworld. Because he is even more powerful now, he can create the chosen one 2.0 - Rey. Thats the only explanation i can come up with to explain all of this.

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Yoda does say, “Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, we cannot.”

He also says something along the lines of, “Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.”

Which, we find out he means literally, but I also think there is a figurative meaning he was trying convey to Luke about Rey’s own abilities and disposition. Basically that she has the right mindset to be a good Jedi.

And I’ve mentioned this before, and I know people disagree with me, but I kind of think a lot of us have just assumed how the Force works without considering that it might be a little more mysterious than we’ve thought.

The Force, through the lightsaber, called out to Rey, even Maz described it as such. The Force called Rey to the Tree on Ach-To. The lightsaber flew into Rey’s hands not because she’s more powerful than Kylo Ren, but because the Force chose her. When Rey lets go of her own desires, the Force is acting through her. The Force has literally awakened, and I feel it plays a more active and obvious role in this story than it may have had in the past.

So the way I see it, it isn’t that Rey just has all these amazing skills. Yeah, she has some piloting, mechanic and survival skills, but that’s from her growing up on Jakku. Her “Jedi” skills are, in my opinion, are based in faith. She starts believing in the Force, especially after Han tells her and Finn about the Force and the Jedi.

I’m not trying to say your guys’ own interpretations are wrong or anything like that, but if you think of it this way it might be easier to rationalize. When I try to picture myself in her position, learning that stories of Jedi I grew up on were real, that the Force is real and that it is calling to me too, it helps me sympathize with how she is afraid of this newfound awakening within her and her desperation to understand it, like she is in The Last Jedi.

And who knows, maybe IX will reveal more to us about Rey, the Force, etc.

Also wanted to say despite my disagreements with OP and some others, I’m glad you guys feel like this is a pretty positive environment to discuss stuff. I might argue with people on here every once in a while, but it is all in good faith and I enjoy talking about it with you all!

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RogueLeader said:

Also wanted to say despite my disagreements with OP and some others, I’m glad you guys feel like this is a pretty positive environment to discuss stuff. I might argue with people on here every once in a while, but it is all in good faith and I enjoy talking about it with you all!

Exactly. Nothing wrong with a friendly debate. 😃

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RogueLeader said:

Yoda does say, “Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, we cannot.”

He also says something along the lines of, “Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.”

Which, we find out he means literally, but I also think there is a figurative meaning he was trying convey to Luke about Rey’s own abilities and disposition. Basically that she has the right mindset to be a good Jedi.

And I’ve mentioned this before, and I know people disagree with me, but I kind of think a lot of us have just assumed how the Force works without considering that it might be a little more mysterious than we’ve thought.

The Force, through the lightsaber, called out to Rey, even Maz described it as such. The Force called Rey to the Tree on Ach-To. The lightsaber flew into Rey’s hands not because she’s more powerful than Kylo Ren, but because the Force chose her. When Rey lets go of her own desires, the Force is acting through her. The Force has literally awakened, and I feel it plays a more active and obvious role in this story than it may have had in the past.

So the way I see it, it isn’t that Rey just has all these amazing skills. Yeah, she has some piloting, mechanic and survival skills, but that’s from her growing up on Jakku. Her “Jedi” skills are, in my opinion, are based in faith. She starts believing in the Force, especially after Han tells her and Finn about the Force and the Jedi.

I’m not trying to say your guys’ own interpretations are wrong or anything like that, but if you think of it this way it might be easier to rationalize. When I try to picture myself in her position, learning that stories of Jedi I grew up on were real, that the Force is real and that it is calling to me too, it helps me sympathize with how she is afraid of this newfound awakening within her and her desperation to understand it, like she is in The Last Jedi.

And who knows, maybe IX will reveal more to us about Rey, the Force, etc.

Also wanted to say despite my disagreements with OP and some others, I’m glad you guys feel like this is a pretty positive environment to discuss stuff. I might argue with people on here every once in a while, but it is all in good faith and I enjoy talking about it with you all!

best explanation of Rey’s abilities I have heard so far and I agree wholeheartedly with it . Kudos for your diplomatic statement at the end of your post as well RogueLeader !

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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RogueLeader said:

Yoda does say, “Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, we cannot.”

He also says something along the lines of, “Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.”

Which, we find out he means literally, but I also think there is a figurative meaning he was trying convey to Luke about Rey’s own abilities and disposition. Basically that she has the right mindset to be a good Jedi.

And I’ve mentioned this before, and I know people disagree with me, but I kind of think a lot of us have just assumed how the Force works without considering that it might be a little more mysterious than we’ve thought.

The Force, through the lightsaber, called out to Rey, even Maz described it as such. The Force called Rey to the Tree on Ach-To. The lightsaber flew into Rey’s hands not because she’s more powerful than Kylo Ren, but because the Force chose her. When Rey lets go of her own desires, the Force is acting through her. The Force has literally awakened, and I feel it plays a more active and obvious role in this story than it may have had in the past.

So the way I see it, it isn’t that Rey just has all these amazing skills. Yeah, she has some piloting, mechanic and survival skills, but that’s from her growing up on Jakku. Her “Jedi” skills are, in my opinion, are based in faith. She starts believing in the Force, especially after Han tells her and Finn about the Force and the Jedi.

I’m not trying to say your guys’ own interpretations are wrong or anything like that, but if you think of it this way it might be easier to rationalize. When I try to picture myself in her position, learning that stories of Jedi I grew up on were real, that the Force is real and that it is calling to me too, it helps me sympathize with how she is afraid of this newfound awakening within her and her desperation to understand it, like she is in The Last Jedi.

And who knows, maybe IX will reveal more to us about Rey, the Force, etc.

Also wanted to say despite my disagreements with OP and some others, I’m glad you guys feel like this is a pretty positive environment to discuss stuff. I might argue with people on here every once in a while, but it is all in good faith and I enjoy talking about it with you all!

Cool post as always Rogue, and I doff mine helm to your last paragraph!

My personal issue with the ‘faith’ aspect is that my reading of the whole ‘I don’t believe it/that is why you fail’ lesson (which is what tends to be brought up when comparing Luke to Rey) is more in line with what someone like Schwarzenegger might profess than say a faith healer. For example Arnold always bangs on about self-belief/positivity and visualisation as the conduit to achieving his various goals, but that doesn’t mean ‘belief’ alone conjures the outcome. You still have to get off your backside and strive, learn, grow, fail, get back up etc etc. When Luke says “I don’t believe it”, I think Yoda’s response is essentially “well, you’ll never get there with that attitude”. Training has such a specific relevance in TESB - we see Luke running and climbing vines and doing flips (all which Mark ‘buffed up’ for) and the comicbook/deleted scenes had him trying to slice a metal bar into 7 pieces after running for miles on end. It just feels cheap (to me) to dismiss the levitation thing as a pure matter of ‘faith’ rather than an integral part of the whole ‘honing of the body and mind’ that TESB implies. By that measure anyone could simply see Yoda raise the X-Wing and then do it themselves because they’ve witnessed it and now believe it.

I like the concept of Rey in theory. Rey has tapped into Jedi territory on the back of being forced (snicker) to survive under severe circumstances. But it would be nice (for us, not Rey!) if there was a downside. If being a Jedi is indeed, as I believe the original films imply, about discipline and patience and true honing of the mind/body/spirit, wouldn’t it follow that Rey might have certain barriers to achieving this state? Perhaps she’s impatient, or distrustful, or so bogged down in her survivalist attitude that she lacks the worldview and/or empathy to resist the Dark Side (which is implied in TLJ but again, has no downside for Rey). I just think that making Rey so automatically brilliant at everything diminishes Luke’s journey in the OT (not to mention Anakin’s fall) and makes the implied training path in the original films appear kind of redundant.

Of course everything I’ve said here is through the lens of my personal fan-view that the Force should be a ‘thing’ and not a ‘who’. I get that many folks don’t mind the idea of a sentient Force that intervenes and bequeaths powers and has its own particular ideas concerning ‘balance’, but for me that creates more questions than it answers. Why didn’t the Force simply choose Luke and spare him all of that pain and heartache? Intervening gods really need to account for their fickle choices. The Force as originally depicted has no such issues.

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I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning. Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren. I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

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yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning. Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren. I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

Aye, this is Rey flying the Falcon “at least as well (if not better than) Han or Lando do” - according to the OP.

 

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yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

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NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

I just found this and read the first post. I had to laugh at the idea that Rey flew the Falcon so well. She practically crashed the thing trying to take off. Once they were in the air she did pretty good, but when you compare that to Luke, he flew his X-wing like a pro from the beginning.

Luke is the best stunt pilot in the outer rim territories, and has clearly been flying for years. And it’s notable that even he never does anything terribly flashy in the OT. Rey’s handling of the Falcon is about how you’d expect in the first few moments, but after that she successfully executes maneuvers far in excess of anything we’ve seen before. If anything, the contrast between almost crashing and ace-level piloting makes her abilities all the more noticeable.

Rey has to try things before she succeeds, pretty much the way Luke did. And she does have a teacher. She learns just about everything she does from Kylo Ren.

She has never seen Klyo use a Jedi mind trick or even successfully gain his desired information from interrogation, though she manages a successful and proper mind trick after a minute or two of trying.
She has never seen successful telekinesis or levitation, yet apparently learns this on the first attempt after only a moment of intention from Kylo. Interestingly, Kylo never indicates that he is aware of teaching Rey ‘You need a teacher! I can show you the ways of the Force!’ and Rey never acknowledges that she has gained knowledge from Kylo ‘The Force…’.

I’d still like to know who taught Luke to lift his lightsaber in TESB.

If only there was some sort of Jedi mentor which has been established to help Luke from beyond the grave, or a time jump of several years to help the audience suspend their disbelief. Or both.

Pretty much all of this ^

It’s amusing how people that defend TLJ accuse the detractors of cherry picking but then do exactly that themselves in defending it. Someone comments generally about Rey’s unbelievable command of a ship she’s never flown before (if she’s ever flown at all??) and so the defense is to post a gif of her crashing in the first few seconds…before she’s pulling flips and advanced manoeuvres in the middle of a star destroyer wreck?