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Brilliant Article about 'white guilt'

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This could probably go in the politics thread too, but not everyone reads that.

This artcle by Shelby Steele talks about how largely the reason the US is so innefective in Iraq and on the issue of boarder security is that we've largely been paralyzed by an unspoken public sense of guilt for the racist actions of our past.

Read it now, darn you!

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haven't read it, but strangely enough my tired eyes thought this was a thread about a white quilt?!?

FINISHED:
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I think we've been largely paralyzed by the ineffective politicians concerned only with appeasing the loudest Americans, despite the fact that those only represent 10% of the views of the people.

Look at our current gas/oil trouble: Politicians passed laws and regulations making it very difficult, if not impossible to build new refineries. Why? Environmentalists don't want them. Why don't we tap Anwar?? Environmentalists are scared for the Caribou...
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I found the term "minimalistic war" very amusing. As if there was a maximized war and a controlled, low-key war.

Now, I disagree with Mrs. (or Miss) Shelby Steele here. It's not white guilt. It's imperialistic guilt. Race has nothing to do with it. Nothing. You can't blame the blind anti-americanism now present over the world due to race, but due to imperialistic actions.

*sigh* But oh well, I am so sure everyone will oppose my point of view here, I'll not waste everyone's time talking about the subject.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: starkiller
Politicians passed laws and regulations making it very difficult, if not impossible to build new refineries. Why? Environmentalists don't want them. Why don't we tap Anwar?? Environmentalists are scared for the Caribou...


A lot of that definitely happens, but this article also points out that the moral rightness of humanity (or, especially white humanity) using its resources has been eroded by the fact wer are expected to always feel guilty about the past.

In otherwords, because our parents, grandparents, great grandparnts may have been racists, this generation can't possibly have the moral authority to 'destroy' the planet any more than we can destroy radical Islam.

In other words, liberals say the modern white man has no legitimacy because white people used to have a superiority complex.

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
I found the term "minimalistic war" very amusing. As if there was a maximized war and a controlled, low-key war.

Now, I disagree with Mrs. (or Miss) Shelby Steele here. It's not white guilt. It's imperialistic guilt. Race has nothing to do with it. Nothing. You can't blame the blind anti-americanism now present over the world due to race, but due to imperialistic actions.

*sigh* But oh well, I am so sure everyone will oppose my point of view here, I'll not waste everyone's time talking about the subject.


You're misinterpretning it, I think, Ric. I agree that it's not really about race. Or at least that it shouldn't be. The thing is, it's the imperialistic actions that the 'white man' is expected to feel guilty for. Even if we personally have nothing to do with the sins, real and imagined, of the past generations, we aren't allowed to fight the war to our full potential because that is seen as repeating the imperialistic evils of the past.

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America has increasingly practiced a policy of minimalism and restraint in war. And now this unacknowledged policy, which always makes a space for the enemy, has us in another long and rather passionless war against a weak enemy.

Why this new minimalism in war?


- lifted from the link


It's called the Geneva Convention...

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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What does the Geneva Convention have to do with the discussion of the way guilt for what came before it is affecting us today?

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Originally posted by: ricarleite
I found the term "minimalistic war" very amusing. As if there was a maximized war and a controlled, low-key war.

Now, I disagree with Mrs. (or Miss) Shelby Steele here. It's not white guilt. It's imperialistic guilt. Race has nothing to do with it. Nothing. You can't blame the blind anti-americanism now present over the world due to race, but due to imperialistic actions.

*sigh* But oh well, I am so sure everyone will oppose my point of view here, I'll not waste everyone's time talking about the subject.


Ric, I here ya!!

Most folks on these forums are wealthy MEANING they make more then $10,000 per year and do not really understand the term "hand-to-mouth" and do not understand that there IS A WAR on the working class and the poor. It could be seen that the US has become an Imperialist Regime were the rich get richer and they try to eliminate the poor.

THAT and only 33% of the country supports the current administartion (so much for majority rules)

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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Originally posted by: Rikter

Most folks on these forums are wealthy MEANING they make more then $10,000 per year and do not really understand the term "hand-to-mouth" and do not understand that there IS A WAR on the working class and the poor. It could be seen that the US has become an Imperialist Regime were the rich get richer and they try to eliminate the poor.


Normally, I don't use language like this...

But that is liberal talking point bull shit and you know it, Rik. You seem smarter than that. The only way America is trying to eliminate the poor is to raise them from the poverty status. Which CANNOT happen with ridiculous government restrictions of on the economy, including high taxes.

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
What does the Geneva Convention have to do with the discussion of the way guilt for what came before it is affecting us today?



The article you linked to is also brings up the subject of a "Why this new minimalism in war?" and that is the point that I'm referencing to as in The GENEVA CONVENTION prevents us from going all out and carpet bombing the crap out a third world country.

SO I edited my last post to make that more clear...

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Originally posted by: Rikter

Most folks on these forums are wealthy MEANING they make more then $10,000 per year and do not really understand the term "hand-to-mouth" and do not understand that there IS A WAR on the working class and the poor. It could be seen that the US has become an Imperialist Regime were the rich get richer and they try to eliminate the poor.


Normally, I don't use language like this...

But that is liberal talking point bull shit and you know it, Rik. You seem smarter than that. The only way America is trying to eliminate the poor is to raise them from the poverty status. Which CANNOT happen with ridiculous government restrictions of on the economy, including high taxes.


NO, RIC AND RIKTER HAVE A POINT. YOU'RE STILL LIVING AT HOME RIGHT, CHALTAB ??? WAIT UNTIL YOU GET INTO THE REAL WORLD OF SUPPORTING YOURSELF AND A FAMILY. WAIT UNTIL YOU ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF A PARENT, TEACHER, OR SPIRITUAL ADVISOR THAT TELLS YOU HOW THE GOVERNMENT WORKS, AND THEN DO SOME REAL RESEARCH ON YOUR OWN WHICH WILL AID IN FORMING YOUR OWN OPINION. ONCE YOU'VE DONE THAT YOU'LL SEE THAT RIC AND RIKTER ARE CORRECT. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE AN @$$HOLE TO HERE, BUT THE YOUTH OF TODAY NEED TO REALIZE THAT THEY KNOW NOTHING THOUGH THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY KNOW IT ALL.

"I'VE GROWN TIRED OF ASKING, SO THIS WILL BE THE LAST TIME..."
The Mangler Bros. Psycho Dayv Armchaireviews Notes on Suicide

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Words of wisdom from an @$$HOLE's point of view. Thanks DAYV!

No just kidding. You're right about that, BUT, I have to defend my fellow arrogant brethren and point out that much can be learned from today's youth.
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Originally posted by: daveytod
haven't read it, but strangely enough my tired eyes thought this was a thread about a white quilt?!?


i thought the same thing
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Originally posted by: ricarleite
I found the term "minimalistic war" very amusing. As if there was a maximized war and a controlled, low-key war.

Now, I disagree with Mrs. (or Miss) Shelby Steele here. It's not white guilt. It's imperialistic guilt. Race has nothing to do with it. Nothing. You can't blame the blind anti-americanism now present over the world due to race, but due to imperialistic actions.

*sigh* But oh well, I am so sure everyone will oppose my point of view here, I'll not waste everyone's time talking about the subject.


You're misinterpretning it, I think, Ric. I agree that it's not really about race. Or at least that it shouldn't be. The thing is, it's the imperialistic actions that the 'white man' is expected to feel guilty for. Even if we personally have nothing to do with the sins, real and imagined, of the past generations, we aren't allowed to fight the war to our full potential because that is seen as repeating the imperialistic evils of the past.


I dont feel guilty. Our people came here to get away from oppressive government, and yeah we did some terrible things to get this country but I won't feel guilty in perpetuity for something that happened hundreds of years ago. Time to move on. Anyone who feels THAT guilty should donate all their personal property to the nearest indian tribe.

The white race is hardly the only imperialistic one...unless you believe that Spanish and Portuguese were spoken in two parts of the world seperated by thousands of miles by coincidence.
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This is a fair warning to all, please do not read any further as the views, opinions and ideas presented in the following text are solely mine and do not necessarily represent those of any other living entity in the known or unknown universe[s].

This is off-topic but I felt it relevant to the current subject matter...

Originally posted by: Darth ChaltabNormally, I don't use language like this...

But that is liberal talking point bull shit and you know it, Rik. You seem smarter than that. The only way America is trying to eliminate the poor is to raise them from the poverty status. Which CANNOT happen with ridiculous government restrictions of on the economy, including high taxes.


Liberal talking points?!?!

I have a medically fragile daughter that requires specialized health care, now this health care is NOT cheap by any means (medical bills are now at $360,000 AFTER Medicaid), I owned my own business and a GREAT insurance policy, BUT to add my daughter (you have to insure the whole family) to the plan was going to add $1200/ month to my policy, BUT since Maddie was born with a genetic disorder which has labeled her disabled and is a “per existing condition” which is NOT covered by the policy, NOW at the time my income was around $1200 a month the thing is AFTER expenses like insurance $250 (needed to operate my business), Housing $700, Utilities $150-200, automotive insurance $80 for two cars, Gasoline for two vehicles $80, Cable connection $70 add the student loans into the mix $100 per month after tuition, books and supplies (my wife was in school full-time to elevate us out of poverty by the way). Now this $1480 output per month does not include food, clothing or entertainment… THAT was all on revolving credit cards SO we had gotten onto Public Assistance which gave us $400+ per month in FOOD STAMPS which was awesome as we honestly really needed the help.

Now at this time (1 year later) Maddi was still under 24 hour watch (severe reflux issues as well as G & J tubes) and required full-time care and as we could not pay for the home health care which was $1500 per month!! MORE then I made but STILL our income was TOO much for Medicaid so we did not qualify for home health care assistance, I took up the training and provide the care myself while Rayna went to school, as I’ve finished my schooling years back and really wanted Rayna to finish up hers (5-8 years). I then broke my ankle (no insurance so I still have $1300 in personal medical bills) and that left me unable to work part-time or odd jobs. Our income then dropped to $100/ month and that was from savings (we save our tax returns and student loans instead of buying HDTV’s or new cars) so shortly after that we were all approved for Medicaid AND thank the maker that Maddi started to get Social Security! Now the SSI honestly covers 90% of our rent and savings covers the remainder. We had to sell a few of my Datsun’s, My Laserdisc player and LD collection (except Star Wars and Blade Runner!!) and drop our home & cell phone services at this point just to keep the electricity and our cable connection on (I was uploading the DVD’s so we needed it!) I was able to return to part-time odd jobs as I could no longer install satellites or HT systems as I’m not insured and in order to be a proper contractor I need to be insured (no $$ for that) and all the local shops & corporate stores only wanted full time or could not accommodate my bizarre on-call child care schedule requirements (with school, doctor appointments & home health care visits) SO Rayna got a part time job and with that now coming in ($400) and my extra income from my newly found Datsun Parts distribution network I was able to manage about $200-$600 a month of tax reported income (I follow the rules). LIFE was good for a few months so we got satellite and telephone service activated again!!

About 8-12 months later we were dropped from the Food Stamp program which was cool as we were able to feed ourselves again (the dinners at our parent’s houses every week did help!) and keep a roof over our heads, then bad news… Rayna ran out of student loans as she had used up the allotted funds (technical loan crap) so she had to drop to part time classes, this meant again that our income would drop a bit but I was able to land a part time job slinging car parts at Autozone (making $7/hr) so about $600 per month still things were great (more or less) then the letter came that both Ray and I were dropped from Medicaid as we made too much money (again) but I couldn’t afford to get insured through the offered HMO as it would have been $500! So I had to absorb the cost of my allergy medication (zyrtec & flonase, I have allergies aggravated by sinusitis) it was only like $40 a month so it was cool until a I got an abcessed tooth which cost a ton of cash ($400) for anti-biotics and the extraction (again no insurance). Things were touch and go after that as we had one full time income of about $700 after taxes and my Datsun parts ran out so had to drop insurance on my car, sell my Krell amps and my NHT SuperZero speakers in order to payoff the Discover card (dentist bill and our cable connection).

Then I had to leave Autozone as they shut down the 24 hours of operation (I worked graveyard on truck nights) so Ray went and got herself a full-time job that paid about $9/hr (good paying jobs are lean here in Albuquerque) still no insurance. NOW today, we cannot afford Ray’s tuition or the cost of books so she’s out of school till fall (with ANY luck) and to top that of she was just laid-off from her receptionist position due to downsizing (she got a small severance package – two months worth) and just after the transmission went out on her car, but I still manage some odd jobs so I take in about $500 bucks a month but that will soon go up as I’m going to start to look for installer work again as I’ll have a 2-4 month period were I can work full-time!! SO, Things are REAL tight around house Blaksvn yet we again manage to scrap by. We were able to get back onto Public Assistance (Food Stamps) but we were cut from $350 to $120 (like most of the other poor people in the U.S. in the last 6 months – there have been major cuts in PA across the country) and EVEN though my family has an annual income of about $9,000 and we are still honestly $11,000 BELOW the current poverty level of $20,000 (http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/06poverty.shtml) we were denied for Medicaid again this month as we STILL make to much money!? I had to make an emergency room visit as my sinusitis acting up again so I needed to get anti-biotics (another $500 hospital bill so we can round it all up to $360,500 ) So needless to say, I will not be getting my Functional Endoscopic sinus surgery or keep up with my Flonase prescription.


Darth Chaltab, I honestly live some of those so called "Liberal talking points" and more then 70% of the people I know (most of which are college graduates mind you) are in the same boat. Just try to make an income of $1400 cover $2000 in monthly bills (including food & gas) and all without the comfort of medical insurance. I live hand-to-mouth and the funny part is I still have it better off then most of my friends and neighbors.

I have actively voted in my local and national elections since I was 18 and even though I was a provisional voter in 04’ even though I’ve been in the same district for 6 years?!? I had to fill in a ballot and was not allowed to use the voting machine – it made local news as it happened to 6 other voters in my district and we all have been in the same district. Now we had over 5000 provisional voters here in New Mexico and it let to a huge voter fraud investigation (you can google it) I would like to add that I was a republican for 15 years and have volunteered with my party in past national and local elections and I’ve now started to program/underwrite an independent news program (Liberty News TV) on my local Public Access TV station Community Cable Access Channel 27. (this starts in July and will be streamed!!)

I would like to also add that I’m a strong supporter of our military but am currently not serving in active duty in the armed forces as I'm a conscientious objector to the current actions, but I'm an active Militiaman and have sworn to defend the Constitution of The United States of America and the Constitution of The State of New Mexico against All Enemies, Both Foreign and Domestic. IF in the unlikely event that our LANDS were ever invaded I will do my best to uphold my oath to my country and its citizens (thereby becoming an insurgent to the opposing forces of those freedoms).



- end blaksvn tranzmizzion

“My skill are no longer as Mad as the once were” RiK

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That was a touching story, Rikter, and I feel I don't need to add up anything to it. Anything. Your words pretty much say it all.

About the other things:

Originally posted by: JediSage
The white race is hardly the only imperialistic one...unless you believe that Spanish and Portuguese were spoken in two parts of the world seperated by thousands of miles by coincidence.


Exactly what I said. I mean, Japan has done some horrible things, Nankin Massacre anyone? Spain, Portugal has done horrible things over here, America itself which requires no explanations or examples (not considering it to be one "white" race), Britain massacring people in India and selling opium in China by the Queen's orders, all imperialistic evil places that have gathered a colective guilt, not realted to race.

But Rikter nailed it, Geneva Convention, war protocols, you know? Mere ethics. Those sometimes are thrown down the window, ooops, Mi Lai incident in 'Nan, oh let's just forget that shall we, pretend never happened. But it's all for a greater good, right? I mean, what is better? What is more effective? Bombing the hell out of a third world country, or keeping then poor by imposing a brutal economic policy to them?

One thing that Rikter said, that I find to be the most hilarious term, is "conscientious objector". Dosen't that imply that people who are against the war are sistematically wrong?
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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I think the argument presented in the article, presents a straw man of its own, and mentions another straw man in the article to throw us off the trail. "No, see, it's our 'white guilt' - that's the real problem." It sounds reasonable, but it's really a right-wing manifesto disguised as logic.
MTFBWY. Always.

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Originally posted by: theredbaron
I think the argument presented in the article, presents a straw man of its own, and mentions another straw man in the article to throw us off the trail. "No, see, it's our 'white guilt' - that's the real problem." It sounds reasonable, but it's really a right-wing manifesto disguised as logic.


LOL...yes. There are only two kinds of people in the world. Right-wing nut jobs and "moderates".
Nemo me impune lacessit

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Why is it that we humans insist on having black-and-white answers to all problems when we know (we KNOW) that almost everything lies somewhere in the grey areas? The truth is, most people are neither far right nor far left. We are somewhere in the middle, and I think a great many of us can agree that both sides have some valid points. For example, most people do not think that stepping on the back of another is person is the morally right way to gain success - but, most people do not think that you should give every beggar you see a dollar, until you are a beggar yourself.

Unfortunately, the extremists amongst us have always been the loudest voices; and, these days, they seem to be all we can hear. It freaks me out that stating any viewpoint not totally in line with that of the current government’s immediately gets one labeled as a “left wing nut.” And vice-versa, that if you agree with anything they do, you are “one of them.” When did politics become so polar? If we look at our American history, we find that this total split, (especially now, when you’re either a tree-hugging, industry-hating, new-age, loopy left wing hippie or a baby seal-killing, peoples-oppressing, money-grubbing conservative has only been within the past, say 100-150 years or so? Our country was founded upon many political parties, some of which were around for one election, some for decades, but enough to represent all of the glorious views and opinions of its people.

For myself, I hesitate to call myself anything but “independent,” because (as usual) both sides of this story have many facts wrong, many opinions with which I disagree, and many with which I do agree. I like some of both side’s methods, and I hate some of both. The one thing that I will say, just my opinion, is that there is a storm brewing in this country. Any one who does not agree need only study their revolutionary history (from any country.) The divide between those who have and those who do not is getting a lot wider and it seems like a whole lot of us are falling into the chasm. But I love my country, and I think that one of the beautiful things about America is its ability to change. I hope that we are able to put aside our polarity in politics and find some real solutions to the problems that we as a society are facing soon, because I don’t even want to think about what this country is going to be like in 20 years if we do not.
Word to the Spookies...

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I agree with much of what you're saying Maker.

The problem as I see it is how do we meet in the middle? Would the left for example, be willing to concede partial-birth abortion in favor of concessions from the right on drilling in Alaska? The answer is a big fat NO. The right would not be willing to sell out the Southern Baptist Convention for concessions on healthcare, either.

So, yes, we need compromise, but don't look for it on the big issues, because it's unrealistic at best. Sadly, I agree that we're on CASCADE failure in this country both economically and politically. There are too many people who believe more government interference and shared destitution are the answer. We'll be almost 100% socialist by the time I retire in 30 years.
Nemo me impune lacessit

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Originally posted by: JediSage
There are too many people who believe more government interference and shared destitution are the answer. We'll be almost 100% socialist by the time I retire in 30 years.


Now that would be something, eh? Nah, if America ever adopts a socialist regime, it'll launch it's interbalistic nuclear missles on itself.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
Originally posted by: JediSage
There are too many people who believe more government interference and shared destitution are the answer. We'll be almost 100% socialist by the time I retire in 30 years.


Now that would be something, eh? Nah, if America ever adopts a socialist regime, it'll launch it's interbalistic nuclear missles on itself.


Your honor, it was clearly Mr. Leite that killed Op Timisim.

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There are too many people who believe more government interference and shared destitution are the answer. We'll be almost 100% socialist by the time I retire in 30 years.


Socialism is good if you don't want to get ahead in life.

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