Boston Marathon Explosion(s) — Page 11

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

zombie84 said:

Teenage kids have now grown up that you can have an intelligent conversation with who have never known what it is like to experience a time when Al Queda was an aggressor.

that is 1000000000000% bullshit.

How is that bullshit? It is true.

it is not Al Qaeda is still an aggressor.   They are still trying to kill us.

CP3S said:

You're not still pissed off about Pearl Harbor, are you, Warb?

Pearl Harbor was 72 years ago, not 12 and Japan is now an Ally and no longer an aggressor.    

CP3S said:

Someone who was five when 9/11 happened, is sixteen. Ten year olds at the time are now of legal drinking age.

and it makes me feel very old.

CP3S said:

I work with kids in these age ranges. None of them talk about Al Qaeda or 9/11. A lot don't even really remember much of the events. When the Boston Marathon bombing happened, the first thing they thought of wasn't "OMG! Islamic terrorists!" It was, "Crap, another psycho!"

but I bet they still consider Al Qaeda a threat.

CP3S said:

zombie84 said:

There are over 70,000 people killed in a mild genocide in Syria over the past year and a half that is the worst tragedy since Rwanda that requires your more immediate outrage and attention.

you don't think I care about what is happening in Syria?  you are sadly mistaken.    

He isn't saying you don't care, he is saying that 9/11 was pushing twelve years ago and you are still enraged and freaked out by it, while things like the events in Syria are easily a multitude more horrific, but it isn't near as big of a deal to you as 9/11.

you answer this below:

CP3S said:

But obviously, if someone is murdered on a doorstep on the other side of town, or in another state, the other side of the continent, or in another country, it doesn't have near the impact on you as someone murdered on your own doorstep. Zombie is kind of ignoring this phenomena.

I'm not ignoring it, I realize things hit home when they are on your own doorstep. My area was deeply affected by 9/11, as I live closer to NYC than many Americans and have many friends there and great love of that city; my city was also a known future target, and our airports and everything were shut down for a while. It was a big deal, and I still keep all the newspapers from that month, they are in a box in my basement.

But still. It was twelve fucking years ago. As C3PS said, young people now don't consider Al Queda something to fear, when they hear of shootings and bombings, that is not what they think of because they have never known a time when Al Queda struck the United States of America. Using September 11th to justify reactions is what I was criticizing. At what point does 9/11 stop being used as an excuse for certain mentalities? It's not 2003, I understand things hit home, but at a certain point you have to get over it and move on, raging against people because of 9/11 is not only illogical, it comes across as immature.

I am sorry but you dead wrong.    Al Qaeda is a threat.    They continue to threaten to attack us and they continue to try.    They are not some sort of changed or reformed group, they are still as evil and as aggressive as they 12 years ago.    If young people truly don't consider Al Qaeda something to fear or at least be concerned about, they are ignorant and/or stupid.   You ask when 911 will stop being used as an excuse for certain mentalities.   I say I need no excuse to be of mentality that thinks that maybe a terrorist organization that 

• has attacked America on American soil multiple times before
• has threaten to do so again
• has killed Americans and innocent people of other nationalities in terrorist attacks since 911
• has done bombing attacks in other nations
• is still an evil terrorist organization that hates America and wants to kill Americans

might have done the Boston Bombing.   I of course realize now that Al Qaeda did not do this attack.   But I did no wrong and feel no shame in guessing that they did.   I believe it was very logical to do so.   I would it agree it would not have been logical to conclude without any evidence that Al Qaeda did it, but that is not what I did.   All I did was make a guess.   And I didn't guess a race or religion, I guess a terrorist organization.   As for getting over it.  Sorry that I will not do.   I will not get over the murder of 3000 innocent people, including a classmate of my brother's.    The images of that day are too burning my mind for me to get over it.   Do you think the families of the victims will ever be over it?  

If, God forbid, another terrorist attack happens that seems to be Al Qaeda's style, I will again guess they might have done it.    I do not give a damn if anyone likes it or not.   If I have to again be called a racist, so be it. Al Qaeda is my country's enemy, they made abundantly clear on 911.   I will continue to consider them so until they either cease to exist or make it clear that they have changed for the better. 

as for rage, I am sorry but telling me 911 was just a fart or telling me to just get over it, comes off to me a ignorant and offensive. 

burka burka

You should move to Aleppo, if you can find it, you might have a more informed perspective.

Warbler said:

as for rage, I am sorry but telling me 911 was just a fart or telling me to just get over it, comes off to me a ignorant and offensive. 

 

I do not think that words means what you think it means.

CP3S said:

burka burka

huh?

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

as for rage, I am sorry but telling me 911 was just a fart or telling me to just get over it, comes off to me a ignorant and offensive. 

 

I do not think that words means what you think it means.

care to elaborate?

CP3S said:

burka burka

I'm getting hungry now, thanks.

zombie84 said:

You should move to Aleppo, if you can find it, you might have a more informed perspective.

I pay attention to the news.  I know of the horror going on in Syria.    I heard this week that chemical weapons were used.   Horrible.  Sick.     Just how hard would it be for the US to go in and put a stop to this? 

Warbler said:

   Just how hard would it be for the US to go in and put a stop to this? 

Well, the record for countries going into Arabic countries, killing bad guys, then leaving everything hunky doory tends to lean towards "pretty damn hard."

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

I didn't live in America at the time of 9/11, or the few years preceding and following it, and I've always had a really hard time relating to Americans on it.

this I do not understand.   Although you weren't in the country at the time, you were an American at the time, correct?   How would where you physically were at the time, effect how you feel about 911?  

I've witnessed a lot of violence in my lifetime, and there are massive events that leave far more than 3,000 dead that happen all the time. Many of these events are caused by bad people inflicting harm on innocent people, much like 9/11, others are naturally occurring. I feel mournful every time I hear of one of these events, even more so when it is an act of evil men. This is exactly how I feel about 9/11. If I became enraged/depressed/pissed off/unable to move on/etc. every time one of these events took place, or every time I remembered one of these events, I'd have to be enraged/depressed/pissed off/unable to move on/etc. pretty much most of the time. It happened, it sucked, nothing can be done about it. So it goes.

CP3S said:

, right after this happened every email I got was so filled with hatred and rage, I just stopped emailing them back.

what is wrong with hatred and rage at the people who did 911?

I prefer communicating with cool heads. Hatred is something I am against in general, even geared toward the worse of people. And rage is a useless emotion that benefits nobody.

Their rage was very broad, and extended toward most things brown or foreign. I didn't care to hear it.

CP3S said:

and it was really dumb sounding and annoying. Lots of ragging on the French too.

well, the French do look down their noses at us.

Do they? Tell me, just how many French people have you known, Warb? Every culture has its quirks that we stereotype them by, maybe there is a general French sentiment of pride and xenophobia. America has worse traits than that. 

CP3S said:

It was horrific, but so few people died,

ok, CP3S, you need to explain this.  so few people????????????????????

Explained in the first part of this post.

CP3S said:

so many violent acts have happened before and since that have claimed so many more innocent lives (including our stupid wars)

could have sworn there was time when you didn't feel the wars were stupid.   I hate war, but the people that did 911 needed to be brought to justice.   At least the wars rid us of these guys:

 

I mean you have to admit it is good thing these guys are no longer alive.

At what cost? I don't think either of them was worth it, I feel sure one wasn't. Yeah, I was for them before I was against them. I guess I've matured since then. Watching the cost, in resources and in lives, rack up over the last decade has gone a long ways in making me feel foolish for ever thinking that those wars were the lesser of multiple evils.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It has been the worst thing to happen to the middle east since Syria came along, and very few people who actually live there feel it has benefited their lives. In fact, almost no one does.

The worst part is that the United States might be dealt a retaliation from it in some way. Illegally invading a country without any planning or strategy, destroying the very fabric of society and law and order and directly being responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and the further feeding of the feeling of subjugation by western hegemonic powers--that mobilizes radicalization. The war in Iraq has created way more radicals than it removed, and the result of that is the newest generation of extremist militants, which Obama has been doing a fairly decent job at trying to undo. The United States helped cause 9/11 on itself for this very same cycle through it's interventions in Israel, which was why Bin Laden did what he did. If you listen to some of the speeches he has given, he isn't as "insane" as some people would have you believe, there is a twisted level of logic to his madness that mirrors the attitude a lot of American extremists have. If you go around trying to control the world, often in the pursuit of self interest on some level, and in the course of it don't really give a real shit about the people who live there, you are going to create a lot of enemies, for very legitimate and understandable reasons.

The US can't simply "go in and take out the bad guys" in Syria, because it's not that simple, just as it was in Iraq, there are multiple levels of social, political, and even religious, contexts to consider, plus the sheer logistics of such an operation, and the fact that things are more grey than they are black and white. A complex civil war/revolution isn't something you can solve with just a big stick, even though that is a useful tool to have, such bluntness is ineffectual against something as complex as this. I'm not really sure what the solution is, to be honest, but if you want to kick the hornets nest you are for sure going to get stung. Complex problems require complex solutions that are a lot less satisfying than just saying "well, why don't we just take them out?", which was something a simpleton moron like George Bush didn't understand and why he now has the blood of 110,000 civilian deaths on his hands.

It's astonishing how many people still believe that Al Qaeda is an organisation like the IRA.

It's just a label for a general idea of punishing the west for offenses real and perceived against Muslims.

It has no real leadership, no manifesto.

Like international Zionism it doesn't really exist, it's a blanket explanation for a series of tangentially and tenuously linked events and groups.

I went to the memorial, that has been set up in Boston, yesterday. It's quite touching, if you guys were considering a visit.

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

I work with kids in these age ranges. None of them talk about Al Qaeda or 9/11. A lot don't even really remember much of the events. When the Boston Marathon bombing happened, the first thing they thought of wasn't "OMG! Islamic terrorists!" It was, "Crap, another psycho!"

but I bet they still consider Al Qaeda a threat.

And I bet most of the ones I work with have no idea what Al Qaeda is. I actually had an eleven year old say to me once, "I forget, which one was it that attacked us on 9/11, Iran or Iraq?" When I told him neither of them, he looked very confused and asked for more details about the wars. Turns out, it is much more confusing trying to explain this stuff to a person who wasn't there for it than I would have guessed it would be.

No, Warb, kids that age don't know much about Al Qaeda. And as time passes, they'll know and care even less about them. The ones who have dads in the military, or who have really right wing parents and are exposed to a lot of Fox News type stuff are probably about the only ones. The nation has moved on. We haven't forgotten, but we are over it.

We've done enough terrible shameful things in response to 9/11, it is one of those parts of history a lot of Americans are happy to sheepishly let fade into the obscurity of the history books. Ten year olds living in Iran and Iraq on the other hand... It is going to be a while before all they were exposed to and suffered fades away.

adywan said:

Warbler said:

I pay attention to the news.  I know of the horror going on in Syria.    I heard this week that chemical weapons were used.   Horrible.  Sick.     Just how hard would it be for the US to go in and put a stop to this? 

because this time around there isn't the vast amounts of oil to get their hands on, like Iraq ;)

I can't speak for other Americans, but I don't give a shit about their oil.    Getting oil is never a justification for war.

zombie84 said:

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

I know.   I was never crazy about that war.   On one hand, I did view Saddam as an evil murdering dictator and a threat, but on the other he didn't do 911 and obviously did not have the wmds Bush claimed they had.  As for going to war for 911, the only war I wanted fought was a war with the people that did it, Al Qaeda. 

zombie84 said:

It has been the worst thing to happen to the middle east since Syria came along, and very few people who actually live there feel it has benefited their lives. In fact, almost no one does.

I have to believe getting rid of an evil murdering dictator like Saddam did some good.

zombie84 said:

The worst part is that the United States might be dealt a retaliation from it in some way.

lets hope not.

zombie84 said:

Illegally invading a country without any planning or strategy, destroying the very fabric of society and law and order and directly being responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and the further feeding of the feeling of subjugation by western hegemonic powers

I am sure we had some planning and strategy it just wasn't good enough

As for society and law and order,  just what kind of society, law, and order was there under Saddam?

As for the deaths of innocent civilians.    I don't know all the details of the war and how the civilians were killed, I certainly hope we did not deliberately target them.

zombie84 said:

--that mobilizes radicalization. The war in Iraq has created way more radicals than it removed,

perhaps.

zombie84 said:

The United States helped cause 9/11 on itself for this very same cycle through it's interventions in Israel,

I am sure some of the justification given for doing 911, was for our actions in the middle east.   But that doesn't justify hijacking planes full of innocent people and slamming into buildings full of innocent people.

zombie84 said:

which was why Bin Laden did what he did. If you listen to some of the speeches he has given, he isn't as "insane" as some people would have you believe,

yes he is.   Anyone that does the things he did is sick, evil and insane.

zombie84 said:

 If you go around trying to control the world, often in the pursuit of self interest on some level, and in the course of it don't really give a real shit about the people who live there, you are going to create a lot of enemies, for very legitimate and understandable reasons.

all I can say is that I do give a shit about the people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria.    The only reason I'd support military action in Syria would be for the sake of the Syrians, to put a stop to the bloodshed.   Most people in America that supported the war in Iraq, didn't do so for oil, they thought we went to war there  to rid the world of an evil dictator that was murdering his own people, that was a threat the US and other nations.   I and others were hoping  that the war would bring freedom and democracy to Iraq.  We are not trying to control the world.  

zombie84 said:

The US can't simply "go in and take out the bad guys" in Syria, because it's not that simple, just as it was in Iraq, there are multiple levels of social, political, and even religious, contexts to consider, plus the sheer logistics of such an operation, and the fact that things are more grey than they are black and white. A complex civil war/revolution isn't something you can solve with just a big stick, even though that is a useful tool to have, such bluntness is ineffectual against something as complex as this. I'm not really sure what the solution is, to be honest, but if you want to kick the hornets nest you are for sure going to get stung. Complex problems require complex solutions that are a lot less satisfying than just saying "well, why don't we just take them out?", which was something a simpleton moron like George Bush didn't understand and why he now has the blood of 110,000 civilian deaths on his hands.

it probably does require a complex solution, but I refuse to believe that there is nothing the US can do about the carnage going on there.   

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

I didn't live in America at the time of 9/11, or the few years preceding and following it, and I've always had a really hard time relating to Americans on it.

this I do not understand.   Although you weren't in the country at the time, you were an American at the time, correct?   How would where you physically were at the time, effect how you feel about 911?  

I've witnessed a lot of violence in my lifetime, and there are massive events that leave far more than 3,000 dead that happen all the time. Many of these events are caused by bad people inflicting harm on innocent people, much like 9/11, others are naturally occurring. I feel mournful every time I hear of one of these events, even more so when it is an act of evil men. This is exactly how I feel about 9/11. If I became enraged/depressed/pissed off/unable to move on/etc. every time one of these events took place, or every time I remembered one of these events, I'd have to be enraged/depressed/pissed off/unable to move on/etc. pretty much most of the time.

still not sure, how, as an American, 911 isn't a bigger deal to you. 

CP3S said:

It happened, it sucked, nothing can be done about it. So it goes.

I disagree with the underlined.   You can do two things:

1.  bring the people that did it to justice, just like you would do in the case of any other murder.

2. take reasonable steps to prevent it from happening again.   Of course everyone is going to disagree with each other on what those steps should be.

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

, right after this happened every email I got was so filled with hatred and rage, I just stopped emailing them back.

what is wrong with hatred and rage at the people who did 911?

I prefer communicating with cool heads. Hatred is something I am against in general, even geared toward the worse of people. And rage is a useless emotion that benefits nobody.

cooler heads maybe better and rage maybe useless, but I can not blame people for feeling hatred and rage at the people that murdered 3000 innocent people. 

CP3S said:

Their rage was very broad, and extended toward most things brown or foreign. I didn't care to hear it.

sounds like they carried to far and it turned to bigotry and prejudice.

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

and it was really dumb sounding and annoying. Lots of ragging on the French too.

well, the French do look down their noses at us.

Do they?

seems like it.    Seems like they have a low opinion of America and Americans. 

CP3S said:

Tell me, just how many French people have you known, Warb?

not many.  ABC for one.  how about you?

CP3S said:

Every culture has its quirks that we stereotype them by, maybe there is a general French sentiment of pride and xenophobia. America has worse traits than that. 

such as?  CP3S, you sure you're an American? 

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

It was horrific, but so few people died,

ok, CP3S, you need to explain this.  so few people????????????????????

Explained in the first part of this post.

not really.   3000 isn't a few.    There are tragedies where more have died, but 3000 still isn't few.  

CP3S said:

 

CP3S said:

so many violent acts have happened before and since that have claimed so many more innocent lives (including our stupid wars)

could have sworn there was time when you didn't feel the wars were stupid.   I hate war, but the people that did 911 needed to be brought to justice.   At least the wars rid us of these guys:

 

I mean you have to admit it is good thing these guys are no longer alive.

At what cost? I don't think either of them was worth it, I feel sure one wasn't.

with Saddam, maybe you are right.   But Bin Laden?   No, he had to be stopped.   He had to pay for 911.    You can't do something like that to us and get away with it.    Would you suggest letting 911 go unpunished?   When someone is murdered, do you object to finding out who the murder is and going after him/her?

CP3S said:

Yeah, I was for them before I was against them.

CP3S said:

I guess I've matured since then. Watching the cost, in resources and in lives, rack up over the last decade has gone a long ways in making me feel foolish for ever thinking that those wars were the lesser of multiple evils.

you've changed. alot.   If you think I am not upset at the deaths in the wars, you are wrong.    But, America was attacked and had to defend itself.  Doing nothing and saying to the world "hey terrorists! you can murder 3000 people and we'll let you get away with it! Please attack us again!" wasn't the answer. 

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

I work with kids in these age ranges. None of them talk about Al Qaeda or 9/11. A lot don't even really remember much of the events. When the Boston Marathon bombing happened, the first thing they thought of wasn't "OMG! Islamic terrorists!" It was, "Crap, another psycho!"

but I bet they still consider Al Qaeda a threat.

And I bet most of the ones I work with have no idea what Al Qaeda is.

if so, the people you work with are incredibly ignorant and must live under huge boulders.

CP3S said:

I actually had an eleven year old say to me once, "I forget, which one was it that attacked us on 9/11, Iran or Iraq?" When I told him neither of them, he looked very confused and asked for more details about the wars. Turns out, it is much more confusing trying to explain this stuff to a person who wasn't there for it than I would have guessed it would be.

that 11 year old needs an education, real bad.

CP3S said:

No, Warb, kids that age don't know much about Al Qaeda. And as time passes, they'll know and care even less about them.

I don't believe you.   May I remind you, some of today's kids lost their mothers and/or fathers on 911.

CP3S said:

The ones who have dads in the military, or who have really right wing parents and are exposed to a lot of Fox News type stuff are probably about the only ones.

that's ridiculous.   Al Qaeda is mentioned every other day on my local news!   and I don't watch fox news.  

CP3S said:

The nation has moved on. We haven't forgotten, but we are over it.

you sure you know your own nation all that well? 

CP3S said:

We've done enough terrible shameful things in response to 9/11, it is one of those parts of history a lot of Americans are happy to sheepishly let fade into the obscurity of the history books.

All I can say is that I would have  done things a lot differently, but I would still have gone after Al Qaeda and Bin Laden.

CP3S said:

Ten year olds living in Iran and Iraq on the other hand... It is going to be a while before all they were exposed to and suffered fades away.

1. what does Iran have do with this.  We have done nothing yet in Iran, and certainly did nothing in Iran in response to 911. 

2. you speak of the stuff 10 year olds wre exposed to in Iraq, just what kind of stuff would they be exposed to in their lifetimes had we left Saddam in power?

Who can tell? Maybe he would have mellowed in later life and the sanctions stopping medicine and investment would have been lifted and the place would be more fun than Falkirk?

He is dead, his head was pulled off with a length of rope and you can't put it back on and re-run history...well not yet but one day I will... maybe.

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

I work with kids in these age ranges. None of them talk about Al Qaeda or 9/11. A lot don't even really remember much of the events. When the Boston Marathon bombing happened, the first thing they thought of wasn't "OMG! Islamic terrorists!" It was, "Crap, another psycho!"

but I bet they still consider Al Qaeda a threat.

And I bet most of the ones I work with have no idea what Al Qaeda is.

if so, the people you work with are incredibly ignorant and must live under huge boulders.

I'm talking about the kids that I work with, not my coworkers. I'm just making the point that to this younger generation it is a piece of history, rather than a current event that greatly impacted their lives.

The Gulf War happened when I was a kid, and I have to admit that I really knew nothing of what it was about at the time. Is it really so unusual for kids 12 and under to be ignorant of this stuff?

 

CP3S said:

I actually had an eleven year old say to me once, "I forget, which one was it that attacked us on 9/11, Iran or Iraq?" When I told him neither of them, he looked very confused and asked for more details about the wars. Turns out, it is much more confusing trying to explain this stuff to a person who wasn't there for it than I would have guessed it would be.

that 11 year old needs an education, real bad.

Well, actually I need education real bad, or to get more sleep, or to read what I post before I post it. He asked about Afghanistan and Iraq, not Iran and Iraq. From there, same point as above.

CP3S said:

No, Warb, kids that age don't know much about Al Qaeda. And as time passes, they'll know and care even less about them.

I don't believe you.   May I remind you, some of today's kids lost their mothers and/or fathers on 911.

You don't need to remind me of that, and of course those ones would be well informed on the subject. But taking the entire percentage of the US population, a very, very small number of kids lost parents from 9/11. I feel like you are skirting around the point being made, like you so often do.

CP3S said:

The nation has moved on. We haven't forgotten, but we are over it.

you sure you know your own nation all that well? 

Do you? I don't watch the news (though I do keep up with what is going on), so I am out of touch as far as the words of pundits and anchors, but I do get out a lot and converse with a lot of people. Maybe I don't know my nation that well, it is hard to say.

 

CP3S said:

Ten year olds living in Iran and Iraq on the other hand... It is going to be a while before all they were exposed to and suffered fades away.

1. what does Iran have do with this.  We have done nothing yet in Iran, and certainly did nothing in Iran in response to 911. 

2. you speak of the stuff 10 year olds wre exposed to in Iraq, just what kind of stuff would they be exposed to in their lifetimes had we left Saddam in power?

Dammit. I meant Iraq and Afghanistan. I was exhausted and under the influence while writing that last post.

I don't know what they would have experienced under Saddam, but they wouldn't have experienced foreign forces invading their country or have been exposed to war and carnage in their own backyards. I'm not convinced it is all that much better now that Saddam is gone, and it certainly cost a lot of lives to take him down, far more than 3,000, plenty of which were as innocent at the 3,000 that died from the attacks on NY in 2001.

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

I didn't live in America at the time of 9/11, or the few years preceding and following it, and I've always had a really hard time relating to Americans on it.

this I do not understand.   Although you weren't in the country at the time, you were an American at the time, correct?   How would where you physically were at the time, effect how you feel about 911?  

I've witnessed a lot of violence in my lifetime, and there are massive events that leave far more than 3,000 dead that happen all the time. Many of these events are caused by bad people inflicting harm on innocent people, much like 9/11, others are naturally occurring. I feel mournful every time I hear of one of these events, even more so when it is an act of evil men. This is exactly how I feel about 9/11. If I became enraged/depressed/pissed off/unable to move on/etc. every time one of these events took place, or every time I remembered one of these events, I'd have to be enraged/depressed/pissed off/unable to move on/etc. pretty much most of the time.

still not sure, how, as an American, 911 isn't a bigger deal to you. 

I guess I identify more as a person than an American. Not sure, how, as a human, more world catastrophes aren't bigger deals to you.

CP3S said:

It happened, it sucked, nothing can be done about it. So it goes.

I disagree with the underlined.   You can do two things:

1.  bring the people that did it to justice, just like you would do in the case of any other murder.

2. take reasonable steps to prevent it from happening again.   Of course everyone is going to disagree with each other on what those steps should be.

We did those things. Right? So, is it better? Did we fix it?

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

and it was really dumb sounding and annoying. Lots of ragging on the French too.

well, the French do look down their noses at us.

Do they?

seems like it.    Seems like they have a low opinion of America and Americans. 

Well, you clearly have a low opinion of the French. So if they do, I can't fault them for it. 

CP3S said:

Tell me, just how many French people have you known, Warb?

not many.  ABC for one.  how about you?

I've been there to visit a few times, knew a number of French students in college, dated an American girl who lived in France for several years and met a few of her French friends. My freshmen year of college, specifically, I knocked around with this pretty French girl named Anna for a little while.

CP3S said:

Every culture has its quirks that we stereotype them by, maybe there is a general French sentiment of pride and xenophobia. America has worse traits than that. 

such as?  CP3S, you sure you're an American? 

I used to spend a lot of time wishing I wasn't, but I grew out of that phase. Or at least most of the time I think I have. When I was out of the country, I used to tell strangers that I was Canadian. When you're abroad, you find that people from the United States have an almost universal reputation of being very fat, very loud, and very ignorant.

Yes, I am an American. I was born here. I was half raised here. I am very much a product of American culture and American thinking.

CP3S said:

At what cost? I don't think either of them was worth it, I feel sure one wasn't.

with Saddam, maybe you are right.   But Bin Laden?   No, he had to be stopped.   He had to pay for 911.    You can't do something like that to us and get away with it.    Would you suggest letting 911 go unpunished?   When someone is murdered, do you object to finding out who the murder is and going after him/her?

Bin Laden is the one I feel sure wasn't worth it, he had no power. With Saddam, maybe we did some good removing him from power, bottom line on that one is, we had absolutely no reason to be in that country. 9/11 was a lose/lose situation, and we lost and and we lost. It took us many years to get Bin Laden, and by the time we did he was an old useless has been who couldn't even leave the house in hiding. Bin Laden cost way more lives than he was worth. And his death is still questionable. His death came at a time of political convenience, and no evidence of his death has ever been given. Not sure I am really doubting it, just saying that there is reason too.

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

Warbler said:

CP3S said:

I work with kids in these age ranges. None of them talk about Al Qaeda or 9/11. A lot don't even really remember much of the events. When the Boston Marathon bombing happened, the first thing they thought of wasn't "OMG! Islamic terrorists!" It was, "Crap, another psycho!"

but I bet they still consider Al Qaeda a threat.

And I bet most of the ones I work with have no idea what Al Qaeda is.

if so, the people you work with are incredibly ignorant and must live under huge boulders.

I'm talking about the kids that I work with, not my coworkers. I'm just making the point that to this younger generation it is a piece of history, rather than a current event that greatly impacted their lives.

not really sure how it can't be a current event seeing as Al Qaeda is still in the news, and every once and while terrorist attacks happen, and we still have troops in Afghanistan.    I

CP3S said:

The Gulf War happened when I was a kid, and I have to admit that I really knew nothing of what it was about at the time. Is it really so unusual for kids 12 and under to be ignorant of this stuff?

maybe not, maybe they need to be educated.   

I was a teenager at the time of the Gulf War. 

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

No, Warb, kids that age don't know much about Al Qaeda. And as time passes, they'll know and care even less about them.

I don't believe you.   May I remind you, some of today's kids lost their mothers and/or fathers on 911.

You don't need to remind me of that, and of course those ones would be well informed on the subject. But taking the entire percentage of the US population, a very, very small number of kids lost parents from 9/11.

well I don't know how they could not know or care about Al Qaeda.   They are in the news all the time and  continue to be a threat to the US.

CP3S said:

I feel like you are skirting around the point being made, like you so often do.

yeah, sure, right.

CP3S said:

CP3S said:

The nation has moved on. We haven't forgotten, but we are over it.

you sure you know your own nation all that well? 

Do you?

I ought to, I've lived here all my life.

CP3S said:

I don't watch the news (though I do keep up with what is going on), so I am out of touch as far as the words of pundits and anchors, but I do get out a lot and converse with a lot of people. Maybe I don't know my nation that well, it is hard to say.

all I can say is that if I didn't know you any better,  from the way you talk about America,  I'd say you're from Europe rather than the USA. 

CP3S said:

 

CP3S said:

Ten year olds living in Iran and Iraq on the other hand... It is going to be a while before all they were exposed to and suffered fades away.

1. what does Iran have do with this.  We have done nothing yet in Iran, and certainly did nothing in Iran in response to 911. 

2. you speak of the stuff 10 year olds wre exposed to in Iraq, just what kind of stuff would they be exposed to in their lifetimes had we left Saddam in power?

Dammit. I meant Iraq and Afghanistan. I was exhausted and under the influence while writing that last post.

I know how it is to post under the influence.  

CP3S said:

I don't know what they would have experienced under Saddam, but they wouldn't have experienced foreign forces invading their country

at the time, I honestly thought we were liberating, not invading their country. 

CP3S said:

or have been exposed to war and carnage in their own backyards.

Saddam had been murdering his own people.  They would have been exposed to carnage either way.

CP3S said:

I'm not convinced it is all that much better now that Saddam is gone,

well, I wanted it to be better for them.   I was hoping that Iraq would become  stable, free and a democracy.   I never gave a damn about their oil.  I and I many other Americans only cared about taking out what was perceived as a threat and freeing Iraq for Iraq's sake.  

Although it turned out that Saddam did not have wmds, do you actually think it was because of lack of trying?   If he had gotten them, do you think he'd have hesitated in using them against Israel or the US or even his own people.  

CP3S said:

and it certainly cost a lot of lives to take him down, far more than 3,000, plenty of which were as innocent at the 3,000 that died from the attacks on NY in 2001.

yeah it did cost a lot of lives.  I would hope that we did all we do to keep the civilian casualties.  I am sure we caused a lot of french casualties in WW2 in liberating France,  was it worth it?