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Bingowings said:
Yes?
Sorry, I was "oh my god-ing" the post above yours. You must have posted while I was reading the page.
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Bingowings said:
Yes?
Sorry, I was "oh my god-ing" the post above yours. You must have posted while I was reading the page.
pittrek said:
You guys know what are the problems of the original cuts? NONE.
I have seen the movies, I don't know, maybe 20 times before the 97SE was created? And I have never ever noticed an error. Simply because I WAS ENJOYING THE F***ING MOVIES AS EVERYBODY ELSE. Only AFTER I found sites like this and I read about the errors and mistakes, I noticed them . And do I care? No, I don't. Yes, there are editorial mistakes, yes, there are some low quality special effects (especially in Jedi, I don't remember any "bad" effects in the first movie), yes, there are some garbage mattes, yes, there are colour imbalances, I know that. Do I care? NO.I simply LOVE the movies. And I'm pissed that Lucas instead of fixing these mistakes he created new ones and new continuity errors, that's why I prefer the originals.
Ady's versions are great and fun to watch, but what the hell are they doing in this discussion? This is about the ORIGINAL CUTS released officially, comparing them to an unofficial fan edit is absolutely POINTLESS.
I never noticed the garbage mattes until the DVD and the crushed blacks and color shift made them worse.
It seems like people are really embracing the new characters. In fact, the big question people ask me now about Star Wars is, “Are Finn and Poe gay lovers?” And really how the f*ck would I know? My second husband left me for a man, so my gaydar isn’t exactly what you’d call Death Star level quality. ----Carrie Fisher
BTW: If they rescan all the original negatives wouldn't the composite be better than in 1977? No black outlines, etc?
So...I have yet to make it big in Japan.....gggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
TheBoost said:
Lord Haseo said:
lovelikewinter said:
I agree with Tyrphanax 100%. I just want the movies I saw as a kid. The one that made me beg my parents to dig my brother's old action figures out of the closet and let me have my own adventures. Had I been a little older, I would have begged my parents for a laserdisc player to see them in better quality than the old releases that sat on the shelves of my local mom and pop video store.
If Lucas would have just given us a choice, then most of the hard feelings would have gone away. He didn't for whatever reason. But now we have the chance to have a high quality release of the OOT. Something I though would never happen unless Lucas was dead.
Adywan's Star Wars is a nice variant, but not the Star Wars I and many more will look at the definitive version 20, 30, 100 years down the line.
I want the OUT on BluRay just as much as anyone of you. But let's not let nostalgia delude us. .. Just by that alone SW:R is superior regardless of popular opinion.
"let us not be deluded" "regardless of popular opinion" "empirically" "objectively"
The way you talk, I get this picture of a little kid with his dad's coffee mug playing 'teacher.'
It's cute.
Personal insults? How mature.
Frankly, I find the notion that (with all due respect to Adywan) a revised edition could/should be considered definitive while the original edition is still in existence both ridiculous AND scary.
"The background of Mona Lisa needs more HDR and her face doesn't really fit contemporary beauty standards. Needs more duckface too. Let's fix that. There, I fixed it. Now it's a lot better. This revision is the definitive version now. Enjoy."
As most of us know, this kind of revisionism is bad enough when practised by the artist (at least when no options are given). A revision, made by a fan with numerous judgement calls (good or bad, that's irrelevant) can be nice and possibly more enjoyable than the artists own revision if more thought is put into it (like Ady's version). If someone enjoys it more than the actual film then fine. Very strange but fine. You can call it "the definitive version for me in terms of my own personal enjoyment". Calling it simply "definitive" is madness.
If I were to think that Gone With the Wind needs more borderline hardcore sex scenes in keeping with contemporary trends, and someone would produce such an edit, I'd enjoy that more. But if I were to say "this is obviously better than the original, why are you guys so crazy about the original version?" to anyone serious about cinema, I would undoubtly get some strange looks.
What irks me is the mindset that produces comments like "I consider this revision the definitive version". If more people start thinking the same way, mankinds entire cultural history, heritage and art itself is at risk. If this mindset is at large, it can only lead to increasing neglect of works of art in their original "as is" form. No other form can be called definitive (unless, of course, the orignal is destroyed. In that case a version closest to the original can be called definitive, I suppose).
Most films made in the silent era are gone forever, partly because of fires in storage facilities and partly because they very considered dated and no effort was made to preserve them. I hope mankind does not allow such an immeasurable loss to happen again.
tl;dr: Please do not use the term "definitive" describing a revision when the phrase "a version I enjoy more because I'm overtly sensitive to inherent imperfections and dated elements in a work of art" is more appropriate. Unless you are trolling/trying to cause a stir.
rchdggr said:
Frankly, I find the notion that (with all due respect to Adywan) a revised edition could/should be considered definitive while the original edition is still in existence both ridiculous AND scary.
"The background of Mona Lisa needs more HDR and her face doesn't really fit contemporary beauty standards. Needs more duckface too. Let's fix that. There, I fixed it. Now it's a lot better. This revision is the definitive version now. Enjoy."
What a nice way to defecate on Ady's work xD
What the fuck now seriously! NOBO0DY IS DEFECATING ON ADY'S WORK, FOR FUCK'S SAKE! I think Ady's work is amazing in many respects, but I also think (as Ady himself and many others do) that it shouldn't replace the original and that it isn't necessarily better than the original.
And you say with one breath, that you're all for releasing the original version and that releasing the original version isn't really taht important, because "we" already have a better version. NO, you perhaps have a better version, for your own enjoyment but I don't - simple as that.
Please do explain just how is that defecating on Ady's work?
Edit: Harmy beat me to it.
Harmy said:
What the fuck now seriously! NOBO0DY IS DEFECATING ON ADY'S WORK, FOR FUCK'S SAKE! I think Ady's work is amazing in many respects, but I also think (as Ady himself and many others do) that it shouldn't replace the original and that it isn't necessarily better than the original.
And you say with one breath, that you're all for releasing the original version and that releasing the original version isn't really taht important, because "we" already have a better version. NO, you perhaps have a better version, for your own enjoyment but I don't - simple as that.
It was a joke. Calm your shit.
rchdggr said:
Please do explain just how is that defecating on Ady's work?
Edit: Harmy beat me to it.
You pretty much compared his work to duckfacing. It was funny as fuck. What I said was more or less a joke so don't take it seriously.
Well, again, you take one bit of a good post and ignore the rest - he compared Ady's work to modernising a classic work of art like Mona Lisa to today's standards of beauty, which I think is a perfect analogy - it could be a fun little experiment but it sure as hell shouldn't be considered the new definitive version of Mona Lisa.
Harmy said:
Well, again, you take one bit of a good post and ignore the rest - he compared Ady's work to modernising a classic work of art like Mona Lisa to today's standards of beauty, which I think is a perfect analogy - it could be a fun little experiment but it sure as hell shouldn't be considered the new definitive version of Mona Lisa.
I didn't respond because I agree with him for the most part. And plus this argument is rendered null and void because we all know the OUT will come to blu-ray eventually. Still doesn't detract from the fact that SW:R is better. Your argument is simply for historical and sentimental value. Let me put this in a more real world context. In 30-50 years cybernetics will advance to the point in which we can enhance our bodies and perhaps later on our actual brains. Many scientists believe that if there is other life in the cosmos that is advanced it could very well be a species of machines; The next step in evolution. Should we limit ourselves in achieving more just because this is the original body we were born with even though cybernetics can enhance our physical boundaries? I would fucking hope not.
That is a big YES for me, yes, we shouldn't become a race of cyborgs - that's scary as hell.
Plus it has very little to do with the issue at hand - Revisited is better for you and you keep saying it's simply better and I'm saying it's not - the historical value of SW is IMO like 80% of its actual value - the story and characters are great but by today's standards, they are very much dated, but that doesn't make them worse, if anything, IMO it makes them better.
It wasn't really directed at Ady. It was just an illustration of what a bad judgement call by a revisionist could be like in general AND how strange it sounds to call a version with such revisions "definitive". I know Ady's judgement calls are a lot more sensible than that.
I could have lifted an example straight from Georges SE now when I think of it..
Serious business! :3
Harmy said:
That is a big YES for me, yes, we shouldn't become a race of cyborgs - that's scary as hell.
Plus it has very little to do with the issue at hand - Revisited is better for you and you keep saying it's simply better and I'm saying it's not - the historical value of SW is IMO like 80% of its actual value - the story and characters are great but by today's standards, they are very much dated, but that doesn't make them worse, if anything, IMO it makes them better.
No offense, but you seem to live your life based on emotion and preconceived notions instead of logic. That's great for an individual, but we as a species need to cast aside these feeling if we're ever going to move forward.
It does pertain to the topic seeing as how Ady's work is like cybernetics. They're enhancements. The only thing that is dated about STAR WARS is it's dialogue and some of the visual effects and nothing more. The way in which GL tells his story is no different than any other great film (more specifically film series) does. His methods go back to way days of antiquity with myths from many cultures that still evoke the same emotion that they did back then.
Lord Haseo said:
...you seem to live your life based on emotion and preconceived notions instead of logic.
Art should generate an emotional response. Surely, that is its purpose. Art without emotion is a very boring thing.
Yeah, ok, so you say yourself that the dialogues are dated - would it be a good idea to rewrite and re-dub them? Today, it wouldn't be that much of a problem to even lip sync the actors' mouths to the new dialog and it would make the film more modern and therefore "better," right?
The movie as a whole is a product of its time - and if one wanted a more modern version of the same story, well, that's what remakes are for.
Lord Haseo said:
No offense, but you seem to live your life based on emotion and preconceived notions instead of logic. That's great for an individual, but we as a species need to cast aside these feeling if we're ever going to move forward.
It does pertain to the topic seeing as how Ady's work is like cybernetics. They're enhancements. The only thing that is dated about STAR WARS is it's dialogue and some of the visual effects and nothing more. The way in which GL tells his story is no different than any other film (more specifically film series) does. His methods go back to way days of antiquity with myths from many cultures that still evoke the same emotion that they did back then.
http://twister111.tumblr.com
Previous Signature preservation link
Harmy said:
What the fuck now seriously! NOBO0DY IS DEFECATING ON ADY'S WORK, FOR FUCK'S SAKE! I think Ady's work is amazing in many respects, but I also think (as Ady himself and many others do) that it shouldn't replace the original and that it isn't necessarily better than the original.
And you say with one breath, that you're all for releasing the original version and that releasing the original version isn't really taht important, because "we" already have a better version. NO, you perhaps have a better version, for your own enjoyment but I don't - simple as that.
Agreed. This is entering George Lucas logic territory. Just because *someone* (or even many people) thinks a version that is heavily modified is superior does not make it definitive has absolutely zero effect on whether we should want, expect, or "shit our pants over" a proper release of the original trilogy.
I'm starting to think this is just a joke/troll. Haseo came into this thread, about original blurays, and said that it's basically nothing to worry about because there are superior versions already available. And then hurls accusations around about badmouthing adywan when people don't agree?
I would totally understand if people are going into Adywan's thread and saying, "LOL, stop bothering, there are real versions coming out." But Haseo is doing the exact inverse. Perhaps it's time to stop feeding the troll.
Harmy said:
Yeah, ok, so you say yourself that the dialogues are dated - would it be a good idea to rewrite and re-dub them? Today, it wouldn't be that much of a problem to even lip sync the actors' mouths to the new dialog and it would make the film more modern and therefore "better," right?
The movie as a whole is a product of its time - and if one wanted a more modern version of the same story, well, that's what remakes are for.
If it works perfectly I wouldn't see why not. But that is utterly impossible. As it stands Harrison Ford carried both Mark Hamill and Carrie Fished in STAR WARS and if someone were to add new dialogue and lip-syncing and made it perfect it would boost their performances given some of the lines and the way said lines were delivered weren't all that great. As for remakes the ONLY way I would even give it a thought if it were better than the OT.
twister111 said:
Lord Haseo said:
No offense, but you seem to live your life based on emotion and preconceived notions instead of logic. That's great for an individual, but we as a species need to cast aside these feeling if we're ever going to move forward.
It does pertain to the topic seeing as how Ady's work is like cybernetics. They're enhancements. The only thing that is dated about STAR WARS is it's dialogue and some of the visual effects and nothing more. The way in which GL tells his story is no different than any other film (more specifically film series) does. His methods go back to way days of antiquity with myths from many cultures that still evoke the same emotion that they did back then.
What are you on about!? I don't frankly care if you could scientifically prove on some weird objective basis that any fan-edited preservation is "technically" better. I just don't. I care about the high quality release of the originals because those are the films. Not the SE, not a fan edit, and not the altered Blu-ray versions. The Star Wars films are the original versions and thus it matters that they get released in high quality. Simple as that.
Never said I didn't want the OUT on Blu-Ray.
A work of art is inherently tied to it's context and time.
Revisions yank it away from it's context and the revision is not the work of art.
I actually like your forward-looking stance. But SW:R is not Star Wars. It will never be. It's collaboration of the filmmakers and Adywan.
I really don't see how going forward and preserving artwork are mutually excluding. We can and we should do both. We do not need to cast away the feeling that our heritage should be preserved to move forward. On the contrary, the leaps we have made in preserving things, even things we thought were lost forever are HELPING US MOVE FORWARD.
Realizing that Star Wars has dated effects has improved fx work in general. Sure, there has been some terrible CGI but BY LOOKING BACK filmmakers are starting to take note that practical effects PLUS CGI can produce amazing stuff, somthing that neither method could produce on their own.
Had we cast aside emotions and feelings we have for good old practical effects and focusing solely on CGI, I for one wouldn't be all too excited by the upcoming ST. Since I know that the makers have realized that CGI alone doesn't really fly, I think we may see something truly amazing soon.
I don't think anything could evolve without the past which is the base. Even if you use yesterday as the base you build upon, you are still looking back. Not much but back nevertheless.
I DON'T consider Adywan's revised editions to be "better" than the originals, and I doubt that Adywan would either.
As for watching and enjoying, that's a personal thing. There are terrible films that I personally enjoy, some of them I even enjoy more than certain great films.
But when using words like "better", important films also have to be judged by their role as watermarks for the time, place, and culture in which they were made, as it true for all works of art. It is simply impossible to modify - in any way - a work of art 20 or 30 years after the fact and do anything but diminish its artistic value.
Furthermore, it is virtually impossible to make such changes without those changes being obvious and clumsy... our brains are incredibly clever, and generally notice even the slightest anomolies in such respects. Why? - because the changes were made in a different time, place, and cultural context, and 99% of the time, it shows.
I have and enjoy Adywan's work immensly - heck, I asked him to color-time my Puggo Strikes Back (which he also did a fantastic job on). But there is no way ANH:R could replace SW, on many, many levels. Much like the SE, it is a fan edit - one could argue that it's a better fan edit than the SE, but purely a fun fan edit nonetheless.
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
You could make a reasonably thought out case for the Revisited projects being better than any version of the SE so far.
Indeed ROTJ and the PT are so flawed as original works that the Adywan versions may well be better films for what he does with them.
But it's a entirely different kettle of monkeys to wanting the originals to be available.
Cripes we can't even see the 1997SE or 1999TPM in anything approaching HD without a lot of jiggery-pokery . For a lot of people those were their entry into the fictional universe.