Before The Prequels were made, what the Jedi were supposed to be like? — Page 2

Superweapon VII said:

JadedSkywalker said:

Warriors that can put down rebellions and can end conflicts but don’t seek them out because they are peacekeepers. And negotiators. Their entire bodies and minds are sharp and honed like a weapon, but they only use a lightsaber in defense, never for violence as its own end. The Sith use violence and intimidation to rule.

One thing I would’ve like to have seen in the prequels is the Jedi relying on martial arts to non-lethally dispatch their foes, utilizing their lightsabers only in kill-or-be-killed situations.

That’s entirely reasonable. Perhaps their later deviations from non-lethal force is what signified their decline.

I agree the Jedi should use lightsabers more sparingly. Although, the “defense only” thing is hard to salvage even with the OT alone, given that Kenobi was supposed to be a war-time General. Even in A New Hope, Kenobi violently murders those two alien thugs in the Cantina. It was self-defense, obviously, but Kenobi could have handled them in some non-lethal manner, presumably. I mean, he could have tried to “mind trick” them into leaving Luke alone, for example.

This reveals that the Jedi underwent some conceptual evolution even between 1977 and 1980, because in Empire Strikes Back the Jedi as described by Yoda are much closer to a “defense-only” Zen Buddhist school of thought, whereas Obi Wan Kenobi in Episode 4 had at least some traces of the stereotypical haughty Samurai who doesn’t hesitate to whip out a katana sword and put some unruly peasants in their place.

In practice, George Lucas sort of side-stepped the whole issue in the Prequels by making all the “bad guy minions” to be droids whom the Jedi can freely stab and slice to pieces while bypassing ethical dilemmas and undesirable MPAA ratings.

Channel72 said:

I agree the Jedi should use lightsabers more sparingly. Although, the “defense only” thing is hard to salvage even with the OT alone, given that Kenobi was supposed to be a war-time General. Even in A New Hope, Kenobi violently murders those two alien thugs in the Cantina. It was self-defense, obviously, but Kenobi could have handled them in some non-lethal manner, presumably. I mean, he could have tried to “mind trick” them into leaving Luke alone, for example.

This reveals that the Jedi underwent some conceptual evolution even between 1977 and 1980, because in Empire Strikes Back the Jedi as described by Yoda are much closer to a “defense-only” Zen Buddhist school of thought, whereas Obi Wan Kenobi in Episode 4 had at least some traces of the stereotypical haughty Samurai who doesn’t hesitate to whip out a katana sword and put some unruly peasants in their place.

In practice, George Lucas sort of side-stepped the whole issue in the Prequels by making all the “bad guy minions” to be droids whom the Jedi can freely stab and slice to pieces while bypassing ethical dilemmas and undesirable MPAA ratings.

You can have both. That was clearly defense either way. The idea that everyone can disarm people pointing guns at them with fast kung fu moves is a movie/TV thing that’s just as fantastical as lightsabers, and at that point Star Wars just had one and not the other one.

Well I mean Yoda only said it was the Force that should never be used to attack. You could argue that the unruly bar flies being chopped just with a weapon was fine.

Mocata said:

Well I mean Yoda only said it was the Force that should never be used to attack. You could argue that the unruly bar flies being chopped just with a weapon was fine.

I guess. I always imagined that using a lightsaber required constant usage of the Force, using precognition to know where to position the blade, resulting in those famous Jedi reflexes.

Yeah but that kind of thing doesn’t exist before TPM. And the idea of the saber was heavy or hard to control unless they concentrated was a behind the scenes idea from the first movie, right?

Mocata said:

Yeah but that kind of thing doesn’t exist before TPM. And the idea of the saber was heavy or hard to control unless they concentrated was a behind the scenes idea from the first movie, right?

I’m inclined to agree with you that the idea of precognition in lightsaber combat did not necessarily exist explicitly in Star Wars prior to TPM. But even in A New Hope, you have Luke using the Force to deflect laser bolts with a lightsaber. I don’t know if that implies that ALL lightsaber combat generally entails Force usage for precognition - but for whatever reason that’s the idea I always had in my head, even before the Prequels.

Frustratingly, there are no scenes on Dagobah involving lightsaber training, although there are remnants of this in a deleted scene. It’s unclear what lesson was taught in that scene and there doesn’t seem to be any trace in early drafts of the script either. It would have been interesting to hear Yoda’s ideas about lightsaber combat circa 1980.

Yeah that scene with the saber cutting a thing into several pieces, it was like an old Seasonal Films movie where the Kung-Fu student gets faster reflexes. Not showing it emphasizes that Yoda doesn’t consider weapons important, the same with the cave lesson.

It’s interesting how Ben Kenobi’s (brief) mentorship with Luke centered mostly around the lightsaber and how it could be used in conjunction with the Force. But then in the next movie, Yoda never even talks about lightsabers, except to tell Luke he doesn’t need his saber in the cave. I would conjecture that this was a creative decision resulting from a variety of factors that break down as follows: 90% practical limitations restricting how the Yoda puppet could move convincingly, 10% a thematic decision consistent with Yoda’s philosophy of self defense.

Once the practical limitation was removed, Yoda immediately started doing flips and shit while bouncing off walls with a mini glow stick.

It suggests that Obi-wan was teaching the real basics, but also that the movie needed to show off the new weapon they created on screen. Then in part two Yoda is teaching less physical more mental ideas, evolving the concept of The Force but also the movie making. AOTC then just becomes a joke obviously.

Yoda wasn’t telling him not to bring his weapons because he doesn’t think weapons have a purpose or Jedi shouldn’t have lightsabers, it was more about Luke’s frame of mind. That’s why he says Luke will find “only that what you take with you” in the cave. He came ready for a fight, bringing fear and aggression, so that’s what he got. The weapons were just a physical symbol.