Sign In

Beauty and the Beast 35mm "Help Needed" — Page 6

Author
Time

I hope to be in a position to get Lion King scanned in the new year, right now there’s no funding to do it. Once done that will complete the renaissance period, although it will still be desirable to get English prints of BATB and Little Mermaid of course. There are still some prints ahead of it Lion King, so realistically it may still be a while before I’m in a position to get it scanned. I could get a quote if you’re interested, but won’t be cheap.

__Valeyard.net

Author
Time

DoggtorWho said:

Thanks for the response! I’ll gladly donate to The Jungle Book project! Can you share a link?

Does anybody know of any Lion King 35mm projects going on? I’m trying to get 35mm copies of the Disney renaissance movies between 89 and 94 (basically everything between Mermaid and Lion King).

I’ve started the process of ripping my Laserdisc copies of those films, and the WIP version of BatB. Wanna upload these somewhere for others to enjoy but not sure where as I’m pretty new to this. Adding all the supplementals that are on the LDs too if anyone’s interested.

Which Disney movies do U have on laserdisc?

Author
Time

@RU.08 I’m very interested in contributing to a Lion King scan for definite. Not sure how much I’d be able to contribute, but it’d be a percentage nevertheless. I’d like to know of a quote. Regarding the BATB scan, has it been scanned and shared around yet, what’s the status?

@GoboFraggle1983 I have quite a few, BATB, BATB (WIP), The Lion King Deluxe Edition, Toy Story Deluxe Ed, The Little Mermaid, Snow White, The Fox and the Hound.

This would probably be served better by it’s own separate discussion, but I’m working on putting together a Lilo and Stitch Pre-9/11 cut for giggles if anybody’s interested in that.

Author
Time

DoggtorWho said:

@RU.08 I’m very interested in contributing to a Lion King scan for definite. Not sure how much I’d be able to contribute, but it’d be a percentage nevertheless. I’d like to know of a quote. Regarding the BATB scan, has it been scanned and shared around yet, what’s the status?

@GoboFraggle1983 I have quite a few, BATB, BATB (WIP), The Lion King Deluxe Edition, Toy Story Deluxe Ed, The Little Mermaid, Snow White, The Fox and the Hound.

This would probably be served better by it’s own separate discussion, but I’m working on putting together a Lilo and Stitch Pre-9/11 cut for giggles if anybody’s interested in that.

Hey DoggtorWho, did you receive my PM?

Author
Time

Hi @GoboFraggle1983, I did receive it, and I’ve responded.

Author
Time

BATB has been scanned. I’ll have some previews in about a week or so, we’re sending the hard drive to one of my friends.

__Valeyard.net

Author
Time
 (Edited)

As I’ve always said, no home release of this film has ever looked right:

It is possibly the most modified of all the Disney animations on home release. Every home release going back to VHS and Laserdisc has made the beast visible way earlier than he is in the actual film. It changes the entire mood of these scenes where the beast is but a silhouette.

__Valeyard.net

Author
Time

Once the colors are all restored, I intend to use an LUT derived from that to restore the 3D version of Beauty and the Beast to the proper colors (which the 3D version appears to be closest to anyway as far as post-2000 releases are concerned) and shadings as part of my planned Gold Standard Collection. And the sooner a 3D version of Tangled Ever After surfaces, or can be restored, to go with that, the better.

(The planned GSC edition of Beauty and the Beast, by the way, will restore the original Disney logo and credits, albeit with 3D credits added in for the 3D version; as such, the 2D and 3D versions will use different closing credits via seamless branching, or else as close to it as I can manage.)

Author
Time

RU.08 said:
It is possibly the most modified of all the Disney animations on home release. Every home release going back to VHS and Laserdisc has made the beast visible way earlier than he is in the actual film. It changes the entire mood of these scenes where the beast is but a silhouette.

Even the way the Beast is drawn here indicates he was never meant to be seen with the level of clarity present on the home video release. His features are exaggerated in a way that works in silhouette, but looks almost off model fully illuminated.

Author
Time

Yes and it was a deliberate directorial choice because BATB is quite a dark film overall - it’s much darker than Aladdin, Lion King, or The Little Mermaid. Yet there are other dark scenes like this:

With the beast fully visible. It’s the early scenes where he is obscured in shadow so he can be revealed properly later.

__Valeyard.net

Author
Time

Beauty and the Beast is in my top three favorite films of all time, and I knew the color timing on the Blu was incorrect, but I don’t think I recognized the depth of its badness. Seeing the comparison side-by-side is gutting.

In other words, bless you for taking this on.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I now have a video preview of Reel 1 available to all donors. I haven’t been able to contact everyone just yet, but don’t worry. I’ll be sending a group message on OT with the link to a few people and individually contacting others. If anyone doesn’t get the link but they think they should feel free to message me. Please do not share the preview - it’s a low quality encode that isn’t intended to show the full quality of the scan.

I will work to get previews of the other reels to donors as well, you just may have to give me a bit of time as I don’t even have the scan myself yet. I’m getting them at the goodwill of an intermediary.

Anyone who didn’t get a chance to donate but is interested in getting access to the preview files can donate towards ALIEN. I won’t be able to give out full-reel previews for Alien, but don’t worry I will work out some previews for donors at some point of the scan as well.

Thanks everyone!

__Valeyard.net

Author
Time

Looking good! Can’t wait to see the rest 😃. It’s quite bizarre how much of a difference colour makes to the overall feel of a film, never really used to notice it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Quick answer to a question I was sent: no I’m not taking any further donations on this project. BUT I am taking donations towards Cinderella, Pinocchio, and Alien!

Also, here is the BatB trailer. I’ll do a proper encode later, but at least it’s a start - and very big thanks go to the collector that loaned it to me for scanning:

It can be shared to anyone that wants it. As far as I know the first time this trailer is available anywhere in HD.

__Valeyard.net

Author
Time

RU.08 said:

Quick answer to a question I was sent: no I’m not taking any further donations on this project. BUT I am taking donations towards Cinderella, Pinocchio, and Alien!

Also, here is the BatB trailer. I’ll do a proper encode later, but at least it’s a start - and very big thanks go to the collector that loaned it to me for scanning:

It can be shared to anyone that wants it. As far as I know the first time this trailer is available anywhere in HD.

Dangit, I guess I’m a day too late on getting the trailer. Today’s Christmas where I’m at, but the link has expired. 😦

Author
Time
 (Edited)

This is all truly amazing! It blows my mind! Astounding work here!

“When the world turns upside down, the best thing to do is turn right along with it.”

Author
Time
 (Edited)

RU.08 said:

As I’ve always said, no home release of this film has ever looked right:

It is possibly the most modified of all the Disney animations on home release. Every home release going back to VHS and Laserdisc has made the beast visible way earlier than he is in the actual film. It changes the entire mood of these scenes where the beast is but a silhouette.

So was the decision to show him totally in silhouette made after the sequence had been colored? I don’t know a whole lot about the animation process, but I’ve seen cels of silhouettes that are painted totally dark before they were printed to film. Seems like kind of an odd decision to achieve a silhouette by fully rendering the figure on every level, including all the different colors between his cloak and fur, and then just print it darker so you can’t see any of that labor. That seems like an extremely wasteful and backwards way to achieve such an effect.

To my taste, I’d probably want a grade that’s a compromise. I feel like the home releases are too bright and this print is too dark (for me, not as a preservation). The line-work in Belle’s hair, at times, is crushed to black. The heavy shadow contrast makes this extremely fast fall-off where the skin tones are even and then the hair (depending on the scene) just disappears quickly into black, like the hair is a black hole sucking away the light around it. It’s a very steep gamma curve.

Again, I’m not disputing that it’s accurate, I was too young at the time to have seen it in theaters. I do think that the VHS retained an analogous mystery in that scene by making him pretty dark, though I do agree its still too bright.

I (roughly) regraded the bluray screencap to something that suits my own subjective tastes:

I tried to maintain some of the red in his cloak while still bringing all the luma information to near total darkness. I think the “almost can’t be seen” feeling has its own kind of mysterious atmosphere. When viewed in the movie as a whole, the shot goes by quick enough that’s it’s not really revealing. It just gives you faint impressions. Then you get those impressions illuminated, literally, when he steps into the light later.

Edit: Forgot that flat pre-grade still from the 35mm was available so I did a rough grade of the same principle to that one as well:

Author
Time

Flubly said:

So was the decision to show him totally in silhouette made after the sequence had been colored? I don’t know a whole lot about the animation process, but I’ve seen cels of silhouettes that are painted totally dark before they were printed to film. Seems like kind of an odd decision to achieve a silhouette by fully rendering the figure on every level, including all the different colors between his cloak and fur, and then just print it darker so you can’t see any of that labor. That seems like an extremely wasteful and backwards way to achieve such an effect.

Well it seems logical to me - you can’t animate a silhouette. You animate the character and then turn him into silhouette. Also, I’ve actually seen this movie projected in a cinema, and that’s exactly how I remember it.

And it’s 100% intentional. Don’t forget they showed the work in progress version in New York in 1991, 2 months ahead of the full release.

To my taste, I’d probably want a grade that’s a compromise. I feel like the home releases are too bright and this print is too dark (for me, not as a preservation). The line-work in Belle’s hair, at times, is crushed to black.

Her hair often appears black on film, that’s just how it is.

__Valeyard.net

Author
Time

RU.08 said:

Well it seems logical to me - you can’t animate a silhouette. You animate the character and then turn him into silhouette. Also, I’ve actually seen this movie projected in a cinema, and that’s exactly how I remember it.

And it’s 100% intentional. Don’t forget they showed the work in progress version in New York in 1991, 2 months ahead of the full release.

You can animate a silhouette, it’s just another abstraction of form. If you can animate a stick figure, a distorted long late-afternoon shadow, or amorphous shapes like the pink elephant sequence in Dumbo, you can animate a silhouette. There’s some stylized clean solid black silhouettes in the opening of Batman the animated series.

I don’t doubt that it was intentional though. Honestly, I can see how Disney would want headroom for exposure and have that flexibility. If a projectionist in the boonies shows the print too bright, Beast won’t be a gray blob.

RU.08 said:

Her hair often appears black on film, that’s just how it is.

I’m sure you’re correct. I think the preservation is a great endeavor and believe that original formats should always be available to the public. I’m not petitioning for this to be altered in any way.

Just commenting that I’m surprised that the original intended version (that I agree should be distributed as is) looks strange to me. It’s a weird fall-off, a separate aspect from how dark the film is. Something can be dark and not have a such a steep notch in a very specific area of the contrast curve. I don’t doubt that it’s intentional.

Author
Time

Flubly said:

You can animate a silhouette, it’s just another abstraction of form. If you can animate a stick figure, a distorted long late-afternoon shadow, or amorphous shapes like the pink elephant sequence in Dumbo, you can animate a silhouette. There’s some stylized clean solid black silhouettes in the opening of Batman the animated series.

Okay let me try to restate it, with Disney animation most characters (including Beast) have one animator that does that character. When they animate Disney cells they are told to follow the contours and movements of live-action reference shots they’re given, not to invent the animation themselves. Many shots even got reused in several Disney animations for example the ballroom dance is a shot reused from Sleeping Beauty. There’s nothing in that process that allows an animator to ever animate a silhouette as a black shadow. Also the animators were not the ones in creative control, it’s a lot easier to get your animator to draw the figure first and then alter its appearance as necessary for the final film. So what the animator for Beast intended and what the director intended for those early Beast scenes could be different.

Just commenting that I’m surprised that the original intended version (that I agree should be distributed as is) looks strange to me. It’s a weird fall-off, a separate aspect from how dark the film is. Something can be dark and not have a such a steep notch in a very specific area of the contrast curve. I don’t doubt that it’s intentional.

If you like the film I suggest arranging to see it on film some time if you can.

__Valeyard.net

Author
Time

Hi RU.08, I sent you a few PM’s about donating toward your projects, but I haven’t received a reply. I’d love to help if I can.