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Beauty and the Beast - 35mm "Help Needed" (a WIP) — Page 2

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Any sane person knows Betamax versions are far more valuable. 😉

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Where were you in '77?

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thxita said:

Not that VHS and Laserdisc were faithful transfers either… but I guess better than the DVD and Bluray versions.

They were faithful but limited by the format and the technology of the day.

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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True, I was thinking of the laserdisc though which was also “reframed”

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So… Stupid question incoming but here you go: Is this more of a preservation of how it originally was shown in the cinemas than the “original theatrical version” they’re supposedly putting onto that new Blu-Ray come this September?

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bjwanlund said:

So… Stupid question incoming but here you go: Is this more of a preservation of how it originally was shown in the cinemas than the “original theatrical version” they’re supposedly putting onto that new Blu-Ray come this September?

Yes.

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I’m expecting the new release to be the same as the Diamond Edition, unfortunately.

“You don’t really mean you’ll kill me, do you?” - Juror 8
“Silence, Earthling! My name is Darth Vader. I am an extra-terrestrial from the planet Vulcan!” - Calvin “Marty” Klein

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bjwanlund said:

So… Stupid question incoming but here you go: Is this more of a preservation of how it originally was shown in the cinemas than the “original theatrical version” they’re supposedly putting onto that new Blu-Ray come this September?

The current Blu-ray already has an “original theatrical version” alternative… The only difference between it and the extended cut is that Human Again is not in the movie. Every other change they made is still there.

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Has there been any progress on this lately? Beauty and the Beast is one of my favorite Disney films and was so excited when this project was announced back in April and was looking forward to see the unaltered film as it was in 1991.

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CarterStarkiller said:

Has there been any progress on this lately? Beauty and the Beast is one of my favorite Disney films and was so excited when this project was announced back in April and was looking forward to see the unaltered film as it was in 1991.

I’d like to as well. Over at Fanres, I need help restoring the original Swedish dub just this project. For the curious here’s a link: https://forum.fanres.com/thread-997.html

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Hi, yes we’re creeping towards getting this scanned, funding is holding us up at this point so please feel free to shoot me a message if you’d like to donate to the project.

Also, thank you to pleasehello for your generous donation!

As mentioned in the OP, once this print is scanned I have other disney films to get scanned as well! 😉

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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I think the 2010 Blu-ray can potentially be the best version of Beauty and the Beast since it came straight from the CAPS files if we fix it.

And Disney just misleadingly called it a digital restoration rather than what it actually is: an altered digital-to-digital transfer.

And if we undo the alterations for the 2002 Special Edition DVD/IMAX and the 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray/3D, color correct it to match the LaserDisc or this 35mm print and add in all the alternate mixes. It might be the best version of Beauty and the Beast we can get unless Disney just releases the unaltered version instead of repackaging the Diamond Edition over and over again.

I think the title should be Beauty and the Beast: Despecialized Edition (sorry, I really had to take the name from you, Harmy, and the first altered version of Beauty and the Beast was also called a Special Edition).

Just tell me if you’re interested for doing this kind of project and I can make own thread, unfortunately. I actually can’t do it since my laptop is too weak for editing SD video, let alone HD.

Maybe, I can still handle the distribution, if the Spleen will allow this restoration.

But if not, then someone else will probably do the distribution.

P.S: It would be really awesome if Harmy did the restoration here, and it would bring more justification to the use of the title Beauty and the Beast: Despecialized Edition.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Swift S. Lawliet said:

I think the 2010 Blu-ray can potentially be the best version of Beauty and the Beast since it came straight from the CAPS files if we fix it.

Well, once I’ve had BATB scanned I should be able to release a 1080p version of it fairly easily. The scan will be available for use to de-specialize the Bluray if anyone wants to do it that way of course.

And if we undo the alterations for the 2002 Special Edition DVD/IMAX and the 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray/3D, color correct it to match the LaserDisc or this 35mm print and add in all the alternate mixes.

The LD is not all that accurate either. In particular, the film is quite a bit darker than the LD.

It might be the best version of Beauty and the Beast we can get unless Disney just releases the unaltered version instead of repackaging the Diamond Edition over and over again.

Have you seen the release of Lady and the Tramp on MySpleen? I have personally seen that film on 35mm not that long ago, and I can tell you that is pretty much exactly how it looked. BATB is similar, but since it’s CAPS the coloring is much more stable than hand-done coloring on the older Disney films.

I think the title should be Beauty and the Beast: Despecialized Edition
Just tell me if you’re interested for doing this kind of project and I can make own thread

I won’t be doing a de-specialized, no. Once I have BATB scanned I have two more Disney films to get scanned and organised. I’ve seen another Disney animation scan (well part of it) that is currently being done by another member, I’m not sure I can tell you anything more about it, and from what I have seen there would be very little benefit in terms of quality in using it to “de-specialize” the BD. Also that is true for Lady and the Tramp.

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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SilverWook said:

Can anyone explain why VHS copies of BTAB (and other Disney animated classics) are being listed on Ebay at insanely high prices these days? They can’t possibly be that rare!

You have Facebook to thank for that. There is a viral article that has been posted all over Facebook claiming these tapes are worth thousands, so every joe schmoe and their mother has been digging out their old worn out crappy beat ass tapes from their garage and dumping them on ebay hoping to make a fortune.

http://www.snopes.com/black-diamond-collection-disney/

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RU.08 said:

Swift S. Lawliet said:

I think the 2010 Blu-ray can potentially be the best version of Beauty and the Beast since it came straight from the CAPS files if we fix it.

Well, once I’ve had BATB scanned I should be able to release a 1080p version of it fairly easily. The scan will be available for use to de-specialize the Bluray if anyone wants to do it that way of course.

And if we undo the alterations for the 2002 Special Edition DVD/IMAX and the 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray/3D, color correct it to match the LaserDisc or this 35mm print and add in all the alternate mixes.

The LD is not all that accurate either. In particular, the film is quite a bit darker than the LD.

It might be the best version of Beauty and the Beast we can get unless Disney just releases the unaltered version instead of repackaging the Diamond Edition over and over again.

Have you seen the release of Lady and the Tramp on MySpleen? I have personally seen that film on 35mm not that long ago, and I can tell you that is pretty much exactly how it looked. BATB is similar, but since it’s CAPS the coloring is much more stable than hand-done coloring on the older Disney films.

I think the title should be Beauty and the Beast: Despecialized Edition
Just tell me if you’re interested for doing this kind of project and I can make own thread

I won’t be doing a de-specialized, no. Once I have BATB scanned I have two more Disney films to get scanned and organised. I’ve seen another Disney animation scan (well part of it) that is currently being done by another member, I’m not sure I can tell you anything more about it, and from what I have seen there would be very little benefit in terms of quality in using it to “de-specialize” the BD. Also that is true for Lady and the Tramp.

Well, you don’t have to do the Despecialized Edition, someone else could, anyways.

Anyways, my idea for sources for a Despecialized Edition (which I can’t actually do since my laptop is very weak) is:

  1. 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray
  2. 35mm scan
  3. 2002 Special Edition HDTV recording
  4. LaserDisc of theatrical edition

Audio from the LaserDisc, 2002 Special Edition HDTV and 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray.

Video is the 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray color corrected based on the 35mm scan and Despecialized with combinations of said 35mm scan, 2002 Special Edition and theatrical LaserDisc. Titles from the 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray “Theatrical” Edition which are very accurate to the original release. Logo probably from the Blu-ray of The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

P.S: For the audio, I also have Mandarin and Cantonese dubbed versions from a bootleg based on the Diamond Edition which I bought in Hong Kong, they are official and the Beast is voiced by Jackie Chan.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Swift S. Lawliet said:

Anyways, my idea for sources for a Despecialized Edition (which I can’t actually do since my laptop is very weak) is:

  1. 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray
  2. 35mm scan
  3. 2002 Special Edition HDTV recording
  4. LaserDisc of theatrical edition

Right yes, whatever people want to do with it is fine. Personally, I am quite sure the scan will look very good as it is. I’m sending it to the same scanner that scanned THX-1138 for poita who is a professional, and I’ve been told I will not get better results anywhere else. I may have to pay to get the film professionally cleaned (as poita is currently doing for ESB).

I know I’ve said this many times, but there is no home video release of this movie that looks the way the theatrical prints do. Given the extent of recoloring on the BD, I am skeptical that it can be regraded at all!

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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RU.08 said:

Swift S. Lawliet said:

Anyways, my idea for sources for a Despecialized Edition (which I can’t actually do since my laptop is very weak) is:

  1. 2010 Diamond Edition Blu-ray
  2. 35mm scan
  3. 2002 Special Edition HDTV recording
  4. LaserDisc of theatrical edition

Right yes, whatever people want to do with it is fine. Personally, I am quite sure the scan will look very good as it is. I’m sending it to the same scanner that scanned THX-1138 for poita who is a professional, and I’ve been told I will not get better results anywhere else. I may have to pay to get the film professionally cleaned (as poita is currently doing for ESB).

I know I’ve said this many times, but there is no home video release of this movie that looks the way the theatrical prints do. Given the extent of recoloring on the BD, I am skeptical that it can be regraded at all!

Hey, if Harmy regraded the Star Wars Original Trilogy, someone can do this.

I think this would be a piece of cake compared to even one Star Wars movie.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Swift S. Lawliet said:

Hey, if Harmy regraded the Star Wars Original Trilogy, someone can do this.

I think this would be a piece of cake compared to even one Star Wars movie.

Well the issue is that these come from modified CAPS files. If they recolor something digitally you will never get it back. From what I’ve seen of the CAPS films I am pretty certain that in particular scenes they have recolored individual items (characters, objects, backgrounds, etc).

If they didn’t do that then yes you can theoretically regrade the BD, but I am pretty sure there are parts that cannot be regraded. Nevertheless once we have the scan you’ll know exactly how it looks and can do whatever you would like. You can get a copy of the 4K files for the price of a hard drive if you want.

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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RU.08 said:

Swift S. Lawliet said:

Hey, if Harmy regraded the Star Wars Original Trilogy, someone can do this.

I think this would be a piece of cake compared to even one Star Wars movie.

Well the issue is that these come from modified CAPS files. If they recolor something digitally you will never get it back. From what I’ve seen of the CAPS films I am pretty certain that in particular scenes they have recolored individual items (characters, objects, backgrounds, etc).

If they didn’t do that then yes you can theoretically regrade the BD, but I am pretty sure there are parts that cannot be regraded. Nevertheless once we have the scan you’ll know exactly how it looks and can do whatever you would like. You can get a copy of the 4K files for the price of a hard drive if you want.

Okay… Anyways, I can’t actually do a restoration.

My PC is very weak and my hard drive is almost full.

I only gave some ideas.

Sorry.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Your ideas are all fine, I’m just letting you know I think they recolored individual stuff - and the coloring is so different to the 35mm that you might loose quite a bit of quality regrading.

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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RU.08 said:

Your ideas are all fine, I’m just letting you know I think they recolored individual stuff - and the coloring is so different to the 35mm that you might loose quite a bit of quality regrading.

Okay… But at least the overall quality will still be better.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Swift S. Lawliet said:

Okay… But at least the overall quality will still be better.

Yes, almost certainly. Disney animations don’t contain the same level of detail as live-action, they were produced at 2K (2048x1080) and cropped from 1.66:1 to 1.85:1 on film (as per the pics). So I wouldn’t expect to find any more detail than already exists on bluray, at least in terms of luminance, but the chroma detail will be better whereas the BD is already at 8bits per channel - which means they’re crushed and that could prove a problem when regrading. As for grain - I’ve seen BATB, Aladdin and Lion King all projected from 35mm in a cinema and I can tell you the grain is fainter than you’d see on a scan. So in terms of graininess I actually agree the BD is better because it has no grain.

But look with all that said, I expect you could do a de-specialized, I’m just feel you’ll need more 35mm content then you might think! As mentioned, once we get this scanned you’re welcome to a 4K copy for the price of a HDD and you can knock yourself out with whatever projects you like - I don’t mind! You can regrade the scan to something entirely different if that’s to your taste. 😃

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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RU.08 said:

Swift S. Lawliet said:

Okay… But at least the overall quality will still be better.

Yes, almost certainly. Disney animations don’t contain the same level of detail as live-action, they were produced at 2K (2048x1080) and cropped from 1.66:1 to 1.85:1 on film (as per the pics). So I wouldn’t expect to find any more detail than already exists on bluray, at least in terms of luminance, but the chroma detail will be better whereas the BD is already at 8bits per channel - which means they’re crushed and that could prove a problem when regrading. As for grain - I’ve seen BATB, Aladdin and Lion King all projected from 35mm in a cinema and I can tell you the grain is fainter than you’d see on a scan. So in terms of graininess I actually agree the BD is better because it has no grain.

But look with all that said, I expect you could do a de-specialized, I’m just feel you’ll need more 35mm content then you might think! As mentioned, once we get this scanned you’re welcome to a 4K copy for the price of a HDD and you can knock yourself out with whatever projects you like - I don’t mind! You can regrade the scan to something entirely different if that’s to your taste. 😃

I told you, I can’t actually do it.

But maybe we can direct it together while someone else does the actual work.

Also, the lack of grain is actually the thing everyone should’ve done with the Star Wars prequels as they were shot digitally (at least for AOTC and ROTS, TPM should’ve had the grain).

I’m not sure why everyone wants to add a 35mm grain plate in AOTC and ROTS even if they were shot digitally and adding grain would make the quality worse IMO.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Swift S. Lawliet said:

Also, the lack of grain is actually the thing everyone should’ve done with the Star Wars prequels as they were shot digitally (at least for AOTC and ROTS, TPM should’ve had the grain).

I assume you’re kidding? If you’re going to go down that path then the resolution should be 1280×1024 since that’s what you saw in a digital cinema in 2002 or 2005. Most people, like I did, saw the movies on 35mm in higher quality.

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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RU.08 said:

Swift S. Lawliet said:

Also, the lack of grain is actually the thing everyone should’ve done with the Star Wars prequels as they were shot digitally (at least for AOTC and ROTS, TPM should’ve had the grain).

I assume you’re kidding? If you’re going to go down that path then the resolution should be 1280×1024 since that’s what you saw in a digital cinema in 2002 or 2005. Most people, like I did, saw the movies on 35mm in higher quality.

I think the grain would have a more filmic look that kinda looks nice.

I think the 35mm grain is subjective for live action films.

And AOTC was a different version on the 35mm version rather than the digital cinema version (which is also on DVD).

Anyways, let us not derail the discussion further and let us talk about who would do the BATB restoration and how.

And I’ve loved every pixel of it.
(Clarissa Darling, Clarissa Explains It All)

You’re so right.
(Kylo Ren, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

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Swift S. Lawliet said:

And AOTC was a different version on the 35mm version rather than the digital cinema version (which is also on DVD).

Well I can tell you because I saw both AOTC and ROTS on film on release that some scenes were quite grainy! For example, the battle in ATOC on Geonosis had some scenes which were quite grainy. Anyway, I doubt they would have outputted 1280x1024 to film - the standard going all the way back to the early 90’s was to output 2K to film - does not apply to 3D like Toy Story (rendered at 1536×922). If we ever get a chance to scan AOTC/ROTS I am very confident they will be higher quality than the original digital versions, but lower than the BDs.

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]