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Baseball question for Warbler - (or anyone else who may be following it)

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What do you think of McGwire coming clean? I don't mean the admission(everyone knew) so much as the timing. Think he's starting to worry he won't get in the hall, or is it his new position with the Cards?

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He said it was the new job, but I think it was the hall.

Incidentally:

Career Reg. Season BA - .263
Career Postseason BA (42 games) - .217

That's not really hall of fame material, is it? Especially if you're not a defensive whiz.

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It's not hall-worthy to me, at all. However, for some reason - maybe the (now tainted) home run race - people seem to think he has a chance. The voting has been low for the past four years and talk has always leaned toward it being a message about his cheating. I think it's more of a message that he was average.

He's going to give an interview to Costas tonight on the MLB network at 7:00 PM Eastern. Should be interesting.

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I think everyone who has proven to have taken Steroids should never get into the hall of fame. They're cheaters pure and simple. I also think their records should be stricken off the books, or have asterisks.

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I wouldn't vote for him, but his BA is pretty much a non-factor for me; he produced/created a lot of runs, more than the high average guys, with his HR, SLG%, and walks. No, his late career andro spike is the reason I don't think he belongs.

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 (Edited)

vote_for_palpatine said:


I wouldn't vote for him, but his BA is pretty much a non-factor for me; he produced/created a lot of runs, more than the high average guys, with his HR, SLG%, and walks. No, his late career andro spike is the reason I don't think he belongs.
I think it's fair to ask how much of his run production is steroid related. Especially given that he's claiming the reason he did steroids was to help keep him on the field (i.e. the Andy Pettite defense). Staying healthy (longevity) is part of the hall criteria, and you can make the case that steroids even inflated his walk totals.

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TV's Frink said:

I think it's fair to ask how much of his run production is steroid related. Especially given that he's claiming the reason he did steroids was to help keep him on the field


I agree. He said he did steroids on & off for ten years. There's a large percentage of his career that is chemical-created. The Maris record year is just one portion of a lot of cheating.

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TV's Frink said:

vote_for_palpatine said:


I wouldn't vote for him, but his BA is pretty much a non-factor for me; he produced/created a lot of runs, more than the high average guys, with his HR, SLG%, and walks. No, his late career andro spike is the reason I don't think he belongs.
I think it's fair to ask how much of his run production is steroid related. Especially given that he's claiming the reason he did steroids was to help keep him on the field (i.e. the Andy Pettite defense). Staying healthy (longevity) is part of the hall criteria, and you can make the case that steroids even inflated his walk totals.


No, I agree; we're saying the same thing. I'm just saying that he's in if he's did clean what he did while juicing.

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vote_for_palpatine said:

No, I agree; we're saying the same thing. I'm just saying that he's in if he's did clean what he did while juicing.
Ah, sorry, I see what you are saying now. I think you're probably right - the staggering power numbers would overwhelm his other liabilities if they were all clean numbers.

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I'm glad to read so many "no" votes here. The issue with McGwire, Bonds, Clemens and others of that ilk is NOT their ability. We all know these men have HOF ability; it's their decision to compromise the integrity of the game they represented which will rightfully keep them out of the hall.

So many steroid apologists go to the "other bad guys in the Hall" argument. Cap Anson was a racist, Ted Williams was a jerk, Ferguson Jenkins was a drug addict, etc. Those character traits are abhorrent, to be sure - but Ted Williams' antisocial behavior did not cheat the game. Jenkins' drug use wasn't some attempt to get an unfair leg up on the competition. Anson's racism may have established the color line in baseball, which DOES affect the integrity of the game. Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with removing Anson and others like him, looking at the issue that way. But that's going afield a bit, and my larger point is that the HOF shouldn't be restricted to the Stan Musial types - jerks who played the game honestly can get in too, if they were good enough.

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It was an interesting interview, to say the least. Here's a link for those who are interested;

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=7148421&topic_id=7898602

The recent openness of the juicing was in large part due to Canseco's 2005 book. For those of us who followed baseball in the late 80s & early 90s, Canseco was always a loose canon. He was embarrassingly conceited and he didn't come across as terribly bright either. I never cared for the guy and didn't pay too much attention to what ever he was blathering in interviews.

Because of that, I paid little heed to Canseco's tell-all book. To me, it was just more attention-whoring. Funny that looking at it several years later, after all this time, Canseco actually did something that helped the game - albeit, for the wrong reasons.

My point with bringing up Canseco is that I found it interesting that McGwire - while coming clean, giving details, dates, etc, live, on national TV - said Canseco's account of him (McGwire) injecting himself in the bathroom before taking the field is false.

I'm inclined to believe McGwire because at this point I have no reason not to.

I will say, however, that I found it disappointing that McGwire thinks the steroids didn't help him break records. He said it was because of his ability, not the juice. The juice allowed him to play more often than he would have otherwise - that aspect had a direct effect on the records he set & broke.

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of course the juice helped him.   It made him stronger.   I guarantee you some of those home runs would have been pop up flies if not for the juice. 

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Steroids don't automatically make you hit home runs and head starts don't automatically mean you're gonna win the race, but its still cheating. 

You don't get it, boy.  This isn't a mudhole.  It's an operating table, and I'm the surgeon.

Vader vs. Luke

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exactly.  They may not automatically make you hit homers, but it they can help.  

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Correct, they don't automatically make you hit more homers because you've become bigger & stronger, although they can. To me, the records are tainted because someone like McGwire took them for so long that he - and he admits this is why he did it - ended up playing in considerably more games, which pads the numbers he would have had otherwise. Nine innings instead of seven, 150 games instead of 130, etc. That adds up over the course of ten years.

By his own admission, he was ready to retire a few years earlier because he was taking too long to get over injuries. He decides instead to juice and ends up playing a few more seasons. That's an awful lot of homers that figure into his total of 583.

Add to that the fact that by being in more games, he had more RBIs - those are runs that may have been game changers for the Cards. He altered his personal records, as well as the possible outcome & standings of other teams - both the Cards and team in other divisions. Particularly if a team is only one or two games back at the end of the season.

Whether he's doing it out of ignorance or denial, his explanation that the only thing the juice altered was his personal health is incorrect.

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http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4819153

13 of ESPN's writers with HOF votes weighed in on how they will vote next time.  Interestingly, the numbers are seven no and six yes.  I would have expected more no than that.

Here's something from the article I hadn't considered regarding his walk totals:

Jerry Crasnick

2010 vote: No

<snip>

His big calling card, power, was almost certainly enhanced by his steroids use, and he drew a lot of his walks because pitchers were scared to death to face him.

The big reason for the yes votes seems to be the assumption that most of the elite players from that era were dirty, and we have to judge them all the same.  Even if you buy that argument, it's hard to apply it to a one trick pony (as Crasnick calls him) like McGwire.  I'd be more likely to vote for A-Rod, who is much more well-rounded (BA, steals, defense, etc.).

Dumbest argument?  Tim Kurkjian:

Tim Kurkjian

2010 vote: Yes

<snip>

and 12 All-Star selections -- no one makes 12 All-Star teams without going to the Hall.

Uh, you want to vote for him in part because the fans voted him to an exhibition game?  Especially one based on barely more than half the season?

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and would we have played well enough to get selected to those 12 All-Star games without the juice?   we will never know.  That is why he shouldn't go to the hall.   He cheated and his whole career is tainted.    I don't care that they were all doing it.   If they truly all were doing it, then no one from that era of baseball deserves to get in.    

Why is it cheating doesn't get you a lifetime ban, but gambling does?

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I'm shocked, shocked to find that there is gambling going on here.

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I agree with the above few posts. McGwire was a one-trick pony and that one trick was chemically enhanced. He shouldn't be in the hall - numbers (which he hardly has) or not. And Frink's right-on about the All Star Game. I watch it myself every year and look forward to the pomp & circumstance. That said, as Frink pointed out, it's just a popularity contest for an exhibition game. A player's true value to a team is demonstrated 162 other times every year.

Another thing that's becoming a drag about this whole ordeal (confession, hall arguments, other players commenting) is that it seems like every time McGwire opens his mouth, he sounds more & more moronic. Just say you did them, for however long, apologize, and get on with Spring Training. Stop the explaining - it's really not helping.

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