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Back to the Future & Time Travel

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Ok, in the under-rated SF thread 12 monkeys was mentioned and someone said it had 'linear' time travel. I think i understand what they mean, but if that person could just clarify that would be appreciated. but onto the topic at hand.

The whole time travel thing is a pretty crazy concept and there is lots of outlooks on its affects. For instance you have movies like 12 monkeys, and Harry Potter 3 where the events of time travel are part of the time line. and the changes made when people go back in time are actually not changes because they occured that way when the person first experienced the situation. (12 monkeys does seem to have some what of a change in the ending but this can be discussed in more depth in its own topic and maybe after i clear up my questions with back to the future I'll bring up these points). In The Time Machine, while he does make changes the resulting outcome is always the same.

So my question with BttF is this, do the events that Marty McFly gets involved with when he goes back to time actually change? The only event that is clear that changes is the meeting of his parents and George McFly's relationship with Biff. But, did Doc actually die in the beginning or was he always wearing the bullet proof vest. (we saw no blood and everything appeared to happen exactly the same even though we watched it from 'the outside' the second time. by the time Doc got up, the 'first' Marty had already traveled back in time.

Also, Doc could have already known that the time machine worked but his letting on that he knew that ahead of time, or that he know that Marty would go back in time, or that the terrorists would find him could have prevented Marty from going back in time, which would have caused Doc to not know about getting shot and not have worn the vest. Also in the second one, all the events that take place when back in 1955 are the same as they were in the first one? or at least the ones we saw in the first one. When the events overlapped everything still turned out for the 'first' Marty exactly as it did in the first one, and once the 'second' Marty got the almanac and burnt it everything in 1985 would have reverted back to normal, so when the first Marty got back to his proper time everything would have appeared fine (aside from one of the only changes that is actually shown in the time line during the movies, which is his parents relationship/lifestyle) Like the doc said the almanac caused a shift in the time line and created an alternate reality (one that could still exist/be part of the 'normal' reality). The only other change we actually see is that of Marty's son in the future not being arrested (via the newpaper) but at the end of 3 when he gets back to 1985 he also avoids the accident, which in and of its self would have changed that event.

while i probably could comment more on this, my post is kinda long already so ill leave it at that and see what other people think about the 'flow of time' and BttF's interpretation of it (as well as personal, and other movie interpretations)

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Time travel makes dolor en la cabeza.

In Back to the Future, it's generally accepted that Time is changeable; it's the whole theme of the movie. Because Marty taught George not to be a selfish recluse, he became a sucsessful father and author. History changed. Remember the photo, the news papers used through out part two? They change when the past changes.

By that logic, Doc is technially dead until Marty changes the past (The fact that the Twin Pines Mall reads "Lone Pine" before Marty goes back in time is an inconsistency--but cinematically it is better as a subtle thing.)

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Read Michael Crichton's Timeline. I like its interpretation of the impact of time travel much better.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Back to the future uses the "Schrodinger's cat" theory, multiple universes are created. Remember BTTF 2, when doc explained Marty of why 1985 was all destroyed and stuff?
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Chaltab, i understand the theme of the movie, but do you see what im saying about how their is really only 2 events, the newspaper and Marty teaching George McFly how to stand up for himself, that show any evidence of change?

Im currently watching the third show, and this one appears to have more that will change (i dont quite remember from when i last saw it) But even being 20 minutes into it nothing has happened that will cause a noticable change (well except i know that Doc's death and also the picture of Doc with the clock tower will change) but even the changes that do occur are really fairly subtle.

besides, its just more of a food for thought type thing and thats why i didnt limit it to just back to the future but included type travel in the topic.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Good thread! Although I agree with Chaltab that thinking too much about the implications of time travel is enough to drive a guy nuts. Anyway, I brought up 12 Monkeys, and if I'm wrong about anything, please feel free to correct me. But the way I saw it, there is only one timeline, with no possible offshoots/branches, unlike BTTF, Terminator, Bill and Ted, Timecop, ect. Bruce Willis isn't sent back to change the past, implying that it isn't possible. He was sent back to the past to determine where the virus originated and other relevant details, so that they can effectively fight it in the present (that being 2019 or whatever). I just thought it was clever and unique.
40,000 million notches away
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Who was it that said "If time travel is possible, why haven't people arrived from the future to tell us so?"
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Watch BTTF 3, then come back.
That film is so full of bloody plot holes and mistakes.
Big fucking mistakes.

Many a conversation I've had about time travel with my mates early into the morning...granted we are usually fucked..but time travel man...good thread...it's about time man
(see what I done there)

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Who was it that said "If time travel is possible, why haven't people arrived from the future to tell us so?"


Who says they haven't.
Thing is... you can't go back and start messing with things...The butterfly effect...one small change here, could be the biggest fuck up in years to come...you might stop yourself from being born or something...which if so, you wouldn't be around to time travel in the first place.....so you wouldn't of come back in time to fuck things up...so then you would have been born...so you would of come back in time......

Man, I'm so confused!!

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Originally posted by: ADigitalMan
Who was it that said "If time travel is possible, why haven't people arrived from the future to tell us so?"


Because according to quantum phisics, one can only go back in time as far as the time machine was built. The only possible way to time travel - and by possible I mean theorically - is to dive into a black hole, you would come out of the black hole in the past (never in the future), and never before the black hole was created.

Theorically it is possible to time travel, but practically it's impossible to do it.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: GundarkHunter
Read Michael Crichton's Timeline. I like its interpretation of the impact of time travel much better.


Is the book worth it? I've read and enjoyed lots of early Crichton (up to about Jurassic Park) but made the mistake of seeing the movie based on 'Timeline'. PLEASE tell me the book is far more redeeming than the utter shite that movie was!

On other time notes (one of my favorite subjects as well) has anyone read the original novel 'The Time Machine' (as opposed to the films) or any of the more 'general audience' works of the likes of Einstein and Hawking?
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Timeline is a very good book...well I enjoyed it...and don't worry, it's much better that that piece of shit film.
But then I love all things to do with time travel...I would give it a go!

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Originally posted by: HotRod
Timeline is a very good book...well I enjoyed it...and don't worry, it's much better that that piece of shit film.
But then I love all things to do with time travel...I would give it a go!


Thanks! I will.... and I can always trust a person who quotes PWEI in their signature line!
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Originally posted by: HotRod
Watch BTTF 3, then come back.
That film is so full of bloody plot holes and mistakes.
Big fucking mistakes.

Many a conversation I've had about time travel with my mates early into the morning...granted we are usually fucked..but time travel man...good thread...it's about time man
(see what I done there)


What are some of the plot holes/mistakes you are referring to?

I know there is the 'problem' with the name of the canyon, because Doc's involvment would have kept Clara from dying which is evident by the tombstone. But we never saw the name of the canyon after Doc went back to 1885, so its possible it kept its original name until Marty caused further changes and it was then called Eastwood Canyon.

I cant figure out how Doc ended up making another time machine though. That still eludes me. Yeah, im sure he's good, but the materials he needed wouldnt have been available back then. Plus he also totally abandons his no more time travel rule at the end.


also, ric, if multiple universes are created then everytime they went back to the future they would end up in a different universe and the universe that existed with the original way would still exist. I think Doc actually refered to it as an alternate reality. which makes more sense, but the way two worked it also implies that even after they changed it 'back' by getting the almanac that reality where Biff had the almanac would still exist in a different plane of existence. So also, what determines what reality they end up in when they travel through time...wouldnt they always stay in their current plane?

Like Windexed said, its enough to drive you nuts if you think about it too much.

also as far as 12 Monkeys goes
***SPOILERS FOR 12 MONKEYS***



at the end on the plane, the lead female scientist from the future that sent Bruce Willis' character back in time was on the plane with the guy who released the virus. I always took this as she went back to learn prevent the virus...or at least further spread of it since at this point it was already released.
also, with his voice message, when they first sent him back it was because of the message the girl left on the machine, then the other guy came back based on the message Willis left. I mean, i see how that must have took place otherwise he wouldnt have seen himself shot (man that was trippy) but if they had that info, why couldnt they start off with that information/message instead of the one about the army of the 12 Monkeys that wasnt accurate to their cause?

*** POSSIBLE HARRY POTTER (3RD BOOK/STORY) SPOILERS ***
This is more along the lines of the Harry Potter take on time travel in that when they went back everything they did actually took place before they went back because they didnt really alter anything, they were already there when it 'originally' happened. There seems to be hints of this in BttF, at least in my opinion

*** TERMINATOR 3 ****
again, there are some time line changes, but they also have events that seem to have always taken place. Like he said at the end, we were never supposed to prevent it, only survive it. In this aspect nothing changed, but at the same time, the people that became his lieutenants were killed so that will change the future. and the original date of D-Day was pushed back, but when it came down to it, they couldnt prevent it, they could only delay it.

*** END ALL SPOILERS ***


-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Originally posted by: HotRod
Watch BTTF 3, then come back.
That film is so full of bloody plot holes and mistakes.
Big f'jorking mistakes.


I know there are quite a few continuity, physical, and timeline-related mistakes, but what about plot holes? Could you elaborate on that?

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Greencapt, definitely give Timeline a read. Crichton postulates that the concept of a butterfly effect would never happen. You can't really go back and do stuff that would change the future too dramatically. You might be able to leave your mark and whatnot, but the future remains effectively unchanged. Really cool book.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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Right...The biggest fuck up in BTTF 3 is..

And bare with me here...It's a lot to explain.

Ok...Doc got shot back to 1885 in his car. Marty then dug up the car in 1955, and went back to get Doc. Marty's car gets an arrow in the petrol tank and lose all the fuel!
Ok so far.
Doc and Marty try and fix Marty's car....But wait...Why don't they just use the feul from the Car Doc went back in time in.
Before you all flame me down think about it. In BTTF 2 we saw 2 time machines. The one they used to get back and try and fix the time line, and the car from the first film, in the scene where we see the 2 Docs, Remember?
So according to the BTTF law, there can be 2 time machines at the same time. So why doesn't this apply to the third film.
Doc went to 1885 in his car. Marty used the same car and went to 1885...so in 1885 there should be 2 cars.
The car that Doc got shot back in time in must still have had enough fuel for them to reach 88mph, but there was no mention of it whatsoever.


Also...The Lorraine thing. In 1885 we see a relative of Marty, Shamus..He's married to whatever her name is, who is played by Lea Thompson-who played Marty's Mum.
So in 1885 Marty's relative Shamus and some bird related in some way to Marty's mum hooked up, had kids and so on...But Hang on...That's just wrong. So it must mean Marty and his family from 1985 are in-bred somehow!
See... Fuck up!!!

Well you sort of get my point...Yeah??

There you go. Big fucking plot hole and IMO one big mistake that totally ruined a great set of films.

I tried my best to explain this, but it helps if you're stoned sitting here with me


BTTF 1 is one of my fave films BTW.



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HotRod, are you the guy with the chill room?
40,000 million notches away
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Originally posted by: HotRod
So it must mean Marty and his family from 1985 are in-bred somehow!


Just look at Marty's dad in the original. I think they covered the whole inbreeding aspect quite well.

And yes, BTTF 1 is the best and, IMHO, the only one they need.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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kapgar.com
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Ok...Doc got shot back to 1885 in his car. Marty then dug up the car in 1955, and went back to get Doc. Marty's car gets an arrow in the petrol tank and lose all the fuel!
Ok so far.
Doc and Marty try and fix Marty's car....But wait...Why don't they just use the feul from the Car Doc went back in time in.
Before you all flame me down think about it. In BTTF 2 we saw 2 time machines. The one they used to get back and try and fix the time line, and the car from the first film, in the scene where we see the 2 Docs, Remember?
So according to the BTTF law, there can be 2 time machines at the same time. So why doesn't this apply to the third film.
Doc went to 1885 in his car. Marty used the same car and went to 1885...so in 1885 there should be 2 cars.
The car that Doc got shot back in time in must still have had enough fuel for them to reach 88mph, but there was no mention of it whatsoever.


Ok, so I'll give you the Maggie = Lorraine thing. They just wanted to give Lea Thompson a part in the third one.

But as for the car; you don't store a car for seventy years with gas still in the tank!! Doc probably would have drained the tank before storing and likey used the fuel for his experiments or something. Remember he didn't expect Marty to come back and get him.

Also, Doc in 1955 tells Marty he refueld the gas tank before Marty drives towards the Theatre Indians.

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Ok, so I'll give you the Maggie = Lorraine thing. They just wanted to give Lea Thompson a part in the third one.





Ok, so Doc used the fuel. Fair enough.But you miss my point! There still should have been 2 cars.

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Originally posted by: HotRod
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Ok, so I'll give you the Maggie = Lorraine thing. They just wanted to give Lea Thompson a part in the third one.



Ok, so Doc used the fuel. Fair enough.But you miss my point! There still should have been 2 cars.


There were two cars; The one the pair drove, and the one sealed in the Delgado mine. If the car in the mine was removed, it would create a major paradox and, worst case scenario, destroy the universe.

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Shit Yeah You're right! See, they never explained that in the film and it's bugged me for years. I hate to say it but that is spot on!

Bollox. All these years I've been saying how fucked up that film was, and all along I was wrong. And I'm never wrong Shit!

Anyway, that makes the trilogy much better now. But how did he make that time train...explain that then man

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I think that was just as much as a gag as the end of the first film was intended to be.

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