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Ask the trans woman (aka interrogate the trans woman) — Page 3

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snooker said:

I don’t want to be transgender but I am. If I could just be cis, I would. But I’m not. The only treatment (I can see) is to transition.

The only treatments that make trans people cis are the same ones that make gay people straight. Don’t exist.

I admit, I was a little harsh in my first reply because when I was a kid I had a few run ins with pedophiles. Not fun. I just can’t see myself including them amongst the LGBTQ+ community. They aren’t the same. Being a pedophile isn’t ‘gender-nonconforming’ like the other ones are.

Sorry buddy. I missed this while typing out my essay. Thanks for giving it to me in a plain way. This makes a lot of sense. I understand a lot better.

Sorry for the gut reaction. I didn’t mean to come across so hostile. I’m just a bit sensitive. But it’s all good.

Peace.

K. Let’s have this ride.

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pleasehello said:

It’s always dicey to mention homosexuality and pedophilia in the same sentence. They’re obviously not the same thing as one is between two consenting adults and the other is completely morally reprehensible. This almost doesn’t need saying.

But judging by the reactions, I don’t think anyone is really even willing to consider the perfectly reasonable possibility that Trident is putting forth: that these two completely different phenomena could both be the result of the physical wiring of someone’s brain.

No one is comparing the two on a moral level and it’s disappointing that we can’t talk about it in a more clinical and analytical way.

Thanks so much. You said it in a much better and plainer way than I did. Maybe that was part of the problem when I first jumped in with both feet instead of trying to be more clear.

K. Let’s have this ride.

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RicOlie_2 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

What is SSA? And fuck any attempt to compare or link LGBT orientations to pedophilia. I have no tolerance for that.

Why? He’s not linking them on a moral level, he’s linking them on a psychological level. Clearly, there’s a difference. Both are attractions that are not evolutionary beneficial (neither can lead to procreation if pursued).

Child rape actually can and does lead to procreation. Your church demands that impregnated children not be allowed to terminate those life-threatening pregnancies. So you’re totally wrong there.

Homosexuality at this point is evolutionarily beneficial since it won’t contribute to overpopulation (which I’m assuming you pretend is a myth). Plus gay couples can adopt and raise children that are orphans, unwanted, or wards of the state.

Are we basing whether or not something is a disorder on whether or not it is “moral” in and of itself? That’s seems awfully arbitrary to me.

I’m basing it on whether or not it has negative consequences. If something has no negative consequences then I have no problem with it.

The Person in Question

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pleasehello said:

But judging by the reactions, I don’t think anyone is really even willing to consider the perfectly reasonable possibility that Trident is putting forth: that these two completely different phenomena could both be the result of the physical wiring of someone’s brain.

It’s a bad analogy. It’d be better to compare it to people with a desire to torture or hurt people or something like that.

The Person in Question

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Not many people have the tolerance for a purely analytical discussion when strong emotions are in play. There’s too much to respond to using a telephone as I am, and one should be wary of derailing flame’s thread. While there may be an interesting analytical matter, whether different conditions are both due to brain wiring doesn’t seem relevant here. Sympathy is going to vary regardless the cause for different conditions.

The blue elephant in the room.

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moviefreakedmind said:

pleasehello said:

But judging by the reactions, I don’t think anyone is really even willing to consider the perfectly reasonable possibility that Trident is putting forth: that these two completely different phenomena could both be the result of the physical wiring of someone’s brain.

It’s a bad analogy. It’d be better to compare it to people with a desire to torture or something like that.

It’s an uncomfortable analogy and I understand why. He clearly wanted to address pedophilia specifically because of his friend. But this is all getting pretty off topic.

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moviefreakedmind said:

RicOlie_2 said:

moviefreakedmind said:

What is SSA? And fuck any attempt to compare or link LGBT orientations to pedophilia. I have no tolerance for that.

Why? He’s not linking them on a moral level, he’s linking them on a psychological level. Clearly, there’s a difference. Both are attractions that are not evolutionary beneficial (neither can lead to procreation if pursued).

Child rape actually can and does lead to procreation. Your church demands that impregnated children not be allowed to terminate those life-threatening pregnancies. So you’re totally wrong there.

You’re missing the point. Totally missing it. Not all pedophiles are rapists just like not all hetro males are either. And it’s not even always about sex. Plus? Pedophiles can be men or women. They can like the same sex? The opposite sex? Or both.

Homosexuality at this point is evolutionarily beneficial since it won’t contribute to overpopulation (which I’m assuming you pretend is a myth). Plus gay couples can adopt and raise children that are orphans, unwanted, or wards of the state.

Are we basing whether or not something is a disorder on whether or not it is “moral” in and of itself? That’s seems awfully arbitrary to me.

I’m basing it on whether or not it has negative consequences. If something has no negative consequences then I have no problem with it.

What do you think about bestiality?

Actually, never mind. I’m not sure it really matters what you think.

K. Let’s have this ride.

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It’s similar but it involves defiling an animal rather than a child.

The Person in Question

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Mrebo said:

Not many people have the tolerance for a purely analytical discussion when strong emotions are in play. There’s too much to respond to using a telephone as I am, and one should be wary of derailing flame’s thread. While there may be an interesting analytical matter, whether different conditions are both due to brain wiring doesn’t seem relevant here. Sympathy is going to vary regardless the cause for different conditions.

Those who don’t want to talk about it can just skip it. I’m interested. Others are too. Let the grown-ups talk about it.

K. Let’s have this ride.

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It’ll be up to flametitan whether this can even be discussed in this thread, so she’ll probably comment on it whenever she’s next here, but I wanted to debunk some of this shit myself because I didn’t want that inherently bigoted comparison to go unanswered.

The Person in Question

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moviefreakedmind said:

pleasehello said:

But judging by the reactions, I don’t think anyone is really even willing to consider the perfectly reasonable possibility that Trident is putting forth: that these two completely different phenomena could both be the result of the physical wiring of someone’s brain.

It’s a bad analogy. It’d be better to compare it to people with a desire to torture or hurt people or something like that.

It’s a perfectly fine analogy while yours is so far off the mark you’re shooting backwards. A pedophile can be sadistic, sure. But so can anyone else be. The one I talk to has a deep love for kids. He’d die defending them. He’d be the last one to want to hurt any of them. He fundraises to send money to kids overseas because he tells me this is the only way he can both help kids and stay away from them at the same time. For him it’s a love-affair.

Yes it’s uncomfortable for some of us to think about? But it doesn’t help allowing prejudices to still stay in front instead of looking at what really is the case here.

I mean the big problem through all our history seems to have been when people are too bigoted to talk about things in a rational way. Why are some things not allowed to be talked about? Who says these links can’t be made if they make sense? Who makes those choices for the rest of us?

K. Let’s have this ride.

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moviefreakedmind said:

Uh, OK this is getting too creepy. I’m done here.

It gets a little hot on the understanding department and it blows your mind? Good God. What a coward.

K. Let’s have this ride.

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Trident, I wish you all the best in your future endeavors.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

Trident, I wish you all the best in your future endeavors.

Thanks Mrebo. Same to you man.

Peace.

K. Let’s have this ride.

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Anyway. This is Flametitan’s thread. So if she wants me to drop it I’ll move on. I didn’t mean to start a ruckus. I admit I may have taken too much for granted here? But I guess I’m used to being misunderstood by now.

No big whoop

K. Let’s have this ride.

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There’s a lot of people going on against comparing the pedophilia and SSA point, and that one I’m probably not going to touch with a hot poker until I can better wrap my mind around what my answer is. However, the first question is one I see from a lot of “opposition” to transition, and someone who might be ignorant on it might actually not realize why it’s different.

Trident said:

What’s your take on dysphoria in terms of rating its cause to be physically caused verses psychological?

I mean take apotemnophilia or xenomelia? Both of these are obviously disorders. Obviously. I mean I’d have a hard time thinking anyone anywhere really thinks that wanting to cut your own limbs off is ever gonna be accepted as normal enough to have its own parade. They’re both accepted as caused by physical breaks in the brain. They’re not even so much psychological as physical brain wiring problems.

The problem with comparing to those two is that Body integrity dysphoria (BID) has a serious lack of research behind it; by contrast, Gender dysphoria is well documented by the medical community. Transition is by no means the same as desiring to remove a limb. Ignoring that the non-op segment of the trans community exists, the worst thing srs does is sterilize you, an effect that’s not unique to it, either. It is by no means a desire to disable your body, especially when you look into how much work is put into the neo-genitals (or at least the neovagina. The neophallus is apparently still underdeveloped, hence why the majority of transmasc folk I know are non-op.)

On top of that, while there’s few studies about BID, there seems to be an indication that amputation does not cure BID. Rather, amputation temporarily relieves the patient’s feelings, before returning at some point or another. In contrast, if/when GD persists during transition, it tends to be one of two things. The first is that it overcorrects, in which case fine tuning the individual’s HRT regiment remedies it. I’ve only seen it a handful of times, and when I have, it’s usually because the individual in question identifies as non-binary.
More commonly, in my experience, is that instead that the new point of focus for dysphoria has always caused dysphoria, it just wasn’t as large a source as the others. For example, my shoulders and voice. They’ve always contributed to my dysphoria, but not to the extent that, say, growing facial hair or the lack of breasts have. Now that I’ve been on HRT for nine months, developed small chest buds, and have a proper regiment for dealing with my facial hair (though being able to afford laser and remove it permanently is a long term goal of mine), I’ve focused back on my voice dysphoria, in order to relieve that. After that, the shoulder dysphoria will remain, because there is no cure for shoulder dysphoria. If there were, I probably wouldn’t have to worry about dysphoria at all.

And as far as the, “If there was a pill that cures dysphoria, would you take it?” question… If I follow the question literally, there is such a pill. I do take it. It’s called Estradiol and an Anti-Androgen (though I might try to convince my doc to switch me from Spironolactone to Cyprotone, as I hear it gives better results with less side effects) for transfemme individuals, and Testosterone for transmasc individuals.

Following more the spirit of the question, with a “cure” that somehow eliminates dysphoria and lets one live their assigned gender, that becomes a deeply personal thing that depends on who you ask, how far along they are, and how “acceptable” transition is where they are. For myself, who’s been on this road for almost half a decade now, has access to proper transition care and has been on it for nine months with a generally accepting community… Yeah, no. I wouldn’t trade it. If someone was still trying to come to terms with it, or lives in a situation where pursuing transition might lead ostracize them at best or lead to violence at worst… I can see why they’d rather take a pill to repress those feelings.

But it doesn’t exist. The most effective cure to dysphoria is, and continues to be, transition.

As far as physical versus psychological goes, there’s some indications that the brain of a trans individual more closely matches that of a cis person of their preferred gender identity, but from what I recall, the sample had so much variance that it was hard to find a trend for “male brain,” and “female” brain at all.

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Trident said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Uh, OK this is getting too creepy. I’m done here.

It gets a little hot on the understanding department and it blows your mind? Good God. What a coward.

No. It’s creepy that you’re talking about pedophilia being a “deep love for kids.” Not wanting to be involved in that conversation does not make me a coward.

The Person in Question

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flametitan said:

There’s a lot of people going on against comparing the pedophilia and SSA point, and that one I’m probably not going to touch with a hot poker until I can better wrap my mind around what my answer is. However, the first question is one I see from a lot of “opposition” to transition, and someone who might be ignorant on it might actually not realize why it’s different.

Trident said:

What’s your take on dysphoria in terms of rating its cause to be physically caused verses psychological?

I mean take apotemnophilia or xenomelia? Both of these are obviously disorders. Obviously. I mean I’d have a hard time thinking anyone anywhere really thinks that wanting to cut your own limbs off is ever gonna be accepted as normal enough to have its own parade. They’re both accepted as caused by physical breaks in the brain. They’re not even so much psychological as physical brain wiring problems.

The problem with comparing to those two is that Body integrity dysphoria (BID) has a serious lack of research behind it; by contrast, Gender dysphoria is well documented by the medical community. Transition is by no means the same as desiring to remove a limb. Ignoring that the non-op segment of the trans community exists, the worst thing srs does is sterilize you, an effect that’s not unique to it, either. It is by no means a desire to disable your body, especially when you look into how much work is put into the neo-genitals (or at least the neovagina. The neophallus is apparently still underdeveloped, hence why the majority of transmasc folk I know are non-op.)

On top of that, while there’s few studies about BID, there seems to be an indication that amputation does not cure BID. Rather, amputation temporarily relieves the patient’s feelings, before returning at some point or another. In contrast, if/when GD persists during transition, it tends to be one of two things. The first is that it overcorrects, in which case fine tuning the individual’s HRT regiment remedies it. I’ve only seen it a handful of times, and when I have, it’s usually because the individual in question identifies as non-binary.
More commonly, in my experience, is that instead that the new point of focus for dysphoria has always caused dysphoria, it just wasn’t as large a source as the others. For example, my shoulders and voice. They’ve always contributed to my dysphoria, but not to the extent that, say, growing facial hair or the lack of breasts have. Now that I’ve been on HRT for nine months, developed small chest buds, and have a proper regiment for dealing with my facial hair (though being able to afford laser and remove it permanently is a long term goal of mine), I’ve focused back on my voice dysphoria, in order to relieve that. After that, the shoulder dysphoria will remain, because there is no cure for shoulder dysphoria. If there were, I probably wouldn’t have to worry about dysphoria at all.

And as far as the, “If there was a pill that cures dysphoria, would you take it?” question… If I follow the question literally, there is such a pill. I do take it. It’s called Estradiol and an Anti-Androgen (though I might try to convince my doc to switch me from Spironolactone to Cyprotone, as I hear it gives better results with less side effects) for transfemme individuals, and Testosterone for transmasc individuals.

Following more the spirit of the question, with a “cure” that somehow eliminates dysphoria and lets one live their assigned gender, that becomes a deeply personal thing that depends on who you ask, how far along they are, and how “acceptable” transition is where they are. For myself, who’s been on this road for almost half a decade now, has access to proper transition care and has been on it for nine months with a generally accepting community… Yeah, no. I wouldn’t trade it. If someone was still trying to come to terms with it, or lives in a situation where pursuing transition might lead ostracize them at best or lead to violence at worst… I can see why they’d rather take a pill to repress those feelings.

But it doesn’t exist. The most effective cure to dysphoria is, and continues to be, transition.

As far as physical versus psychological goes, there’s some indications that the brain of a trans individual more closely matches that of a cis person of their preferred gender identity, but from what I recall, the sample had so much variance that it was hard to find a trend for “male brain,” and “female” brain at all.

That’s interesting. You see the people I know with dysphoria fall into 2 camps. There are those who accept it’s something, but they don’t think it’s right to fix it (operate) because of their beliefs? And then there are those like that friend of mine who’s still pre-op.

So I don’t really know anyone who’s gotten to the other side of the procedure. I’ve got no connection with anyone who’s a survivor 3 years on and feeling great.

I’m assuming you’ve got more of a connection with people who’ve managed to go the full way. If so? Do you generally get the same solid feedback that it was the right thing to do? Or do you get a mixed message sometimes? I mean how much of a risk do you think you’d be taking if doing an operation? Emotionally, mentally, psychologically, whatever. I guess I’m trying to figure out if this is the lesser of 2 evils? Or if it’s guaranteed happiness and easy pacing from there?

I like the detail you go into to make things clear. It helps see through that lens a bit better.

Peace.

K. Let’s have this ride.

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moviefreakedmind said:

Trident said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Uh, OK this is getting too creepy. I’m done here.

It gets a little hot on the understanding department and it blows your mind? Good God. What a coward.

No. It’s creepy that you’re talking about pedophilia being a “deep love for kids.” Not wanting to be involved in that conversation does not make me a coward.

Sure it does.

Do you have any idea how many times I tried to hint at friends growing up that I had SSA? Do you know you’re giving me the same blow off they did. They thought it was creepy too. Trying to understand someone who isn’t like you shouldn’t be creepy. It might make you feel uneasy? It might strike you as totally the wrong way facing? But it shouldn’t be an excuse to run away and plug your ears.

I mean what if this guy was one of your pals and you never knew? What if he told you in a moment of weakness because he needed your strength to go on? What if he turned his trust to you and you answered like that?

So full of judgment. So full of assuming you knew what he was feeling? So full of assuming you knew better than he did what he truly wanted?

How could a guy like that ever try to get help when that’s the default people brush on to him?

He didn’t choose that path man. He didn’t wake up one day and figure it’d be a good day to be a pedophile. What happened to him was a whole long list of things.

And since I’ve got nothing to do today? I’ll share it with you.

It started with his dad pushing him down the stairs at 4 or 5. It started with his mom working double shifts at work to pay the bills while his dad drank the money.

From there it was watching the fights. It was being picked up as a little guy and thrown across the room.

It was being told he was the reason they didn’t have money. It was watching his older brother getting beat up for trying to defend his mom. It was learning early and heavy that no one wanted him. He learned when young that people didn’t care. He learned that adults did bad things. He learned that adults were monsters.

So when he got older and tried to date? He was terrified. He couldn’t talk to a girl in his teens. He couldn’t see them as anything he could understand. He was afraid they’d make fun of his stutter. They’d tear into his confidence and strip it bare in a heartbeat.

But he wanted affection. He wanted some way to connect. He needed love and wanted understanding. But he couldn’t get it from people in the normal way. He couldn’t trust anyone in a real sense.

So he started making things kind of ideal in his head. He started idolizing a childhood he never had. He started imagining what it was like to be a kid in a place of love. A kid who was safe from hurt.

And from there he started to love that kid. He wanted to be close to that kid. He wanted to share in that experience. He wanted to share in all the toys and games and carefree laughter that a kid in a normal house got on a regular.

He wanted it so bad he could taste it. It became an obsession. It became his fantasy. Something he used to get himself through the day. Because he works with seniors. And their needs are sort of like those of children in a way? But they’re battle-scarred. They’re ornery. They have sicknesses and diseases. They have ticks and are strong and sometimes fight with him in the dementia ward.

But kids? They’re innocent and sweet. They live a pure life with few inhibitions. They say what’s in their hearts. No games. No pretenses. Just honest and raw truth as they see it.

So he pines for that. He wants a connection with that. He wants to orbit that world and live inside it.

But he can’t. He doesn’t dare. He doesn’t want to hurt kids. He wants to protect them. He wants them to go on living in that pure world. He knows he’d ruin it for them. He knows he’d bring adult ideas into that safe place. He knows he’d destroy the very thing he loves most about them.

So he lives in a torment of his own experience. And lives a sideshow that makes him bitterly depressed.

I hope you understand what I’m saying here. I hope you get it. And I hope you forgive me for being so angry. I don’t really have a beef with you. I really should understand by now that so few people even want to sit and spend time with a leper that it’s really an of-course that most would be this way. I’ve just forgotten what it’s like. I’ve forgotten my first gut-instinct on it too by now.

Peace.

K. Let’s have this ride.

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Trident said:

That’s interesting. You see the people I know with dysphoria fall into 2 camps. There are those who accept it’s something, but they don’t think it’s right to fix it (operate) because of their beliefs? And then there are those like that friend of mine who’s still pre-op.

The former group you describe is one I’ve never seen trawling through support groups or general meeting places for trans people. Probably because of that opposition to the treatment that alleviates dysphoria.

As for your friend… I am autistic as well. That’s not a factor in how “sorted through” I am with this. Likewise, you absolutely cannot just jump on board of any sort of operation. It takes a minimum of a year on HRT before any facility capable of it will even consider seeing you. Now, there’s been debate over whether that’s too long, whether such gatekeeping is helpful at all, but the year of HRT before surgery is the standard currently. On top of that, everyone jumps to talking about whether or not someone will “regret” SRS. For the most part, it’s rare that such a thing happens, and as I said on the religion thread, for transfemme individuals it has a lot more to do with pressure from society than them actually regretting it. (It’s a more complicated instance for trans masc detransitioners)

If your friend is pretty firm it’s the right way to go, then they really should pursue it. Dysphoria becoming some other feeling of, “something’s not right,” doesn’t happen.

So I don’t really know anyone who’s gotten to the other side of the procedure. I’ve got no connection with anyone who’s a survivor 3 years on and feeling great.

I’m assuming you’ve got more of a connection with people who’ve managed to go the full way. If so? Do you generally get the same solid feedback that it was the right thing to do? Or do you get a mixed message sometimes? I mean how much of a risk do you think you’d be taking if doing an operation? Emotionally, mentally, psychologically, whatever. I guess I’m trying to figure out if this is the lesser of 2 evils? Or if it’s guaranteed happiness and easy pacing from there?

From the people I know who’ve gone through it, it starts off painful (Because their bodies are healing, so of course it’s painful) but when the pain starts to subside, it becomes normal. It’s just kind of a part of you now. It improves emotions greatly, sure, but those improved emotions become the norm, and the individual moves on with their life.

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I just want to say how helpful this thread has been for me. Thank you!

DESTROY ALL JEDI

My name is Sprite Pepsi and I’m abstinence till I die!

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snooker said:

I just want to say how helpful this thread has been for me. Thank you!

I’m glad it’s being so helpful. More than anything I want to spread awareness and visibility, as I consider the lack of it drove why I repressed those feelings during my teen years.

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flametitan said:

Trident said:

That’s interesting. You see the people I know with dysphoria fall into 2 camps. There are those who accept it’s something, but they don’t think it’s right to fix it (operate) because of their beliefs? And then there are those like that friend of mine who’s still pre-op.

The former group you describe is one I’ve never seen trawling through support groups or general meeting places for trans people. Probably because of that opposition to the treatment that alleviates dysphoria.

As for your friend… I am autistic as well. That’s not a factor in how “sorted through” I am with this. Likewise, you absolutely cannot just jump on board of any sort of operation. It takes a minimum of a year on HRT before any facility capable of it will even consider seeing you. Now, there’s been debate over whether that’s too long, whether such gatekeeping is helpful at all, but the year of HRT before surgery is the standard currently. On top of that, everyone jumps to talking about whether or not someone will “regret” SRS. For the most part, it’s rare that such a thing happens, and as I said on the religion thread, for transfemme individuals it has a lot more to do with pressure from society than them actually regretting it. (It’s a more complicated instance for trans masc detransitioners)

What do you think? Is a year too long? Or not long enough? I mean you’ve been on this road for at least 5 years (if I’ve got that right)? What took the time to get from there to here? What was the aha moment for you when you figured it was time to turn thought to action?

If your friend is pretty firm it’s the right way to go, then they really should pursue it. Dysphoria becoming some other feeling of, “something’s not right,” doesn’t happen.

That’s the big problem with him. He’s not a firm type. I mean take his trying to tell his parents? 2 years running and still nope. He keeps promising himself and keeps talking himself out of it. But at the same time he’s sure he wants the operation. I keep telling him if he can’t commit to talking about it how can he commit to the full operation? It seems like a mixed view to me. It makes me worried.

So I don’t really know anyone who’s gotten to the other side of the procedure. I’ve got no connection with anyone who’s a survivor 3 years on and feeling great.

I’m assuming you’ve got more of a connection with people who’ve managed to go the full way. If so? Do you generally get the same solid feedback that it was the right thing to do? Or do you get a mixed message sometimes? I mean how much of a risk do you think you’d be taking if doing an operation? Emotionally, mentally, psychologically, whatever. I guess I’m trying to figure out if this is the lesser of 2 evils? Or if it’s guaranteed happiness and easy pacing from there?

From the people I know who’ve gone through it, it starts off painful (Because their bodies are healing, so of course it’s painful) but when the pain starts to subside, it becomes normal. It’s just kind of a part of you now. It improves emotions greatly, sure, but those improved emotions become the norm, and the individual moves on with their life.

How many years has it been since they’ve made the transition on average? I mean how far past the pain are they in general?

K. Let’s have this ride.