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Yeah, I understand. I just don't want our "unconventional" ideas to completely define us and I wanted to throw that in there before the thread entirely lost its steam.
darth_ender said:
I worry that this thread may have provided a bit of an improper perspective of my Church because most of the questions asked dealt with rather tangential topics that were not core aspects of my faith. I'm sure they are greater interest to most because they are either major sources of criticism or simply are distinctive aspect, but I feel that I should say that most of those things are not core doctrines, and most of them are seldom talked about. Yes we believe them, but they are not essential to our understanding.
I think the reason we bring those topics is because those are just the topics we know the least about. In America where religion is everywhere, we all know the core beliefs of Christianity already so we want the details about what makes you different from more conventional denominations.
If you want a Myspleen invite, just PM me and ask.
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Once-upon-a-time-on-MySpleen/topic/12652/
Yeah, I understand. I just don't want our "unconventional" ideas to completely define us and I wanted to throw that in there before the thread entirely lost its steam.
Belief in God and Jesus? BORING!!! Those religions are a dime a dozen. But no tea? Tell me more!
:p
darth_ender said:
Yeah, I understand. I just don't want our "unconventional" ideas to completely define us and I wanted to throw that in there before the thread entirely lost its steam.
But that's the problem, we are defined by what makes us unique.
If you want a Myspleen invite, just PM me and ask.
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Once-upon-a-time-on-MySpleen/topic/12652/
Q: What's with the mandatory 10% donation thingy*?
Incidentally, this looks like an interesting website:
http://mormonthink.com/introductionweb.htm
And I particularly enjoyed this:
What if we're wrong?People wonder what if by some chance the Church is 100% true, and that there is some sort of fantastic explanation for all the historical problems - would God punish us in the next life?
God gave us a brain and expects us to use it. We're expected to use every means at our disposal to seek the truth and to live our lives in a desirable way. "The Glory of God is intelligence" is something we hear at church all the time.
If the LDS Church is somehow 100% true, we're not too worried about defending our beliefs on judgment day. If we end up 'on trial' for not believing what the LDS Church has taught, the information on this website alone would justify our actions.
We would ask God to explain the following:
- Why doesn't Joseph Smith's translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham and the Egyptian papyri match what Egyptologists say they mean?
- Why does the Book of Mormon mention so many things that did not exist in the Americas when the BOM took place such as horses, elephants, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc.?
- Why were we told the Book of Mormon was translated from gold plates that were never used, when Joseph put his face in a hat and looked at a common stone he found while digging a well?
- Why did Joseph marry 11 men's wives while they were still married to their husbands?
The lists of questions would go on for several pages. If God does indeed exist, and he's the fair judge that we all believe him to be, then how could He condemn anyone for not believing a story fraught with so many problems?
Likewise if the church isn't true, then I don't think a just God would punish anyone for believing in it if they really believed it, although perhaps some people would be chided for IGNORING the red flags and continuing to believe a lie out of fear or willful ignorance. If the church isn't true then it does not have the power to 'save' you anyway.
LDS people would probably have the same response if, in the next life, they found out that Scientology was really God's one, true church. They would bring up the absurd problems with that religion and expect absolution for not believing in that religion.
According to LDS lore, Joseph Smith himself will have some role in the final judgment of our souls. Shortly before he died, Joseph said "no man knows my history; if I hadn't lived it I wouldn't have believed it myself." Well, if even Joseph wouldn't have believed it, then how can anyone blame us for not believing it either?
walkingdork said:
darth_ender said:
Yeah, I understand. I just don't want our "unconventional" ideas to completely define us and I wanted to throw that in there before the thread entirely lost its steam.
But that's the problem, we are defined by what makes us unique.
Well, what's interesting is that the distinction between Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians is nearly insignificant today, though they came from some drastically different roots. But even these 13 Articles of Faith contain unique doctrines, some not laid out so specifically, but very important, such as the aforementioned distinct beings: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
I did start this thread to answer the questions that tickle everyone the most, but it occurred to me that the image being conjured was something more akin to scientology (like the Kolob discussion). These things are present, but again are not particularly important to us. A non-LDS Christian who attends one of our services for the first time would find things that are certainly different from what they experience in his or her own services, but at the same time, it would definitely be a church service, not a Star Trek convention. It would certainly feel familiar to them in spite of its differences.
I understand your point, and I'll continue to happily share our wackiest traits or misconceptions. I just thought it would be wise to lay down what the base of our religion truly is.
TV's Frink said:
Incidentally, this looks like an interesting website:
http://mormonthink.com/introductionweb.htm
And I particularly enjoyed this:
What if we're wrong?People wonder what if by some chance the Church is 100% true, and that there is some sort of fantastic explanation for all the historical problems - would God punish us in the next life?
God gave us a brain and expects us to use it. We're expected to use every means at our disposal to seek the truth and to live our lives in a desirable way. "The Glory of God is intelligence" is something we hear at church all the time.
If the LDS Church is somehow 100% true, we're not too worried about defending our beliefs on judgment day. If we end up 'on trial' for not believing what the LDS Church has taught, the information on this website alone would justify our actions.
We would ask God to explain the following:
- Why doesn't Joseph Smith's translation of the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham and the Egyptian papyri match what Egyptologists say they mean?
- Why does the Book of Mormon mention so many things that did not exist in the Americas when the BOM took place such as horses, elephants, wheat, barley, silk, steel, etc.?
- Why were we told the Book of Mormon was translated from gold plates that were never used, when Joseph put his face in a hat and looked at a common stone he found while digging a well?
- Why did Joseph marry 11 men's wives while they were still married to their husbands?
The lists of questions would go on for several pages. If God does indeed exist, and he's the fair judge that we all believe him to be, then how could He condemn anyone for not believing a story fraught with so many problems?
Likewise if the church isn't true, then I don't think a just God would punish anyone for believing in it if they really believed it, although perhaps some people would be chided for IGNORING the red flags and continuing to believe a lie out of fear or willful ignorance. If the church isn't true then it does not have the power to 'save' you anyway.
LDS people would probably have the same response if, in the next life, they found out that Scientology was really God's one, true church. They would bring up the absurd problems with that religion and expect absolution for not believing in that religion.
According to LDS lore, Joseph Smith himself will have some role in the final judgment of our souls. Shortly before he died, Joseph said "no man knows my history; if I hadn't lived it I wouldn't have believed it myself." Well, if even Joseph wouldn't have believed it, then how can anyone blame us for not believing it either?
That looks like a pretty cool site. There are also good points in this quote, though I'm surprised that some of the "questionable" things they bring up are not easily explained, even by genuine objective historians. Let me give an example: David Whitmer, one of the Three Witnesses to the authenticity is quoted as stating that Joseph Smith put his face in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. But other sources, particularly later sources indicate that the translation process was done in different methods, including simply using the plates and no assistive device. Check out this link for more info. The same goes for other claims, and if you want, I can point out the flawed mentions. What's interesting to me is that there are other more serious poitns that could have been made, so I'm not trying to simply make excuses. They really could have used better examples. I myself appreciate their mission in spite of the crises of faith it can cause for many. I feel I've had to reason through many things to arrive at my point, and now I find myself a stronger believer in spite of realizing how much I don't understand.
TV's Frink said:
Q: What's with the mandatory 10% donation thingy*?
Ah, tithing: a mandatory tax on Church members that if not paid, back payments will be collected through our collection agency, as well as heavy fines. Oh wait, that's not it.
Tithing is a voluntary payment of 10% with quite a lot of biblical precedent. Though one is expected to pay in order to be permitted to enter the temple, one will not be punished for not paying or be required to catch up if he/she goes through a phase without paying. Tithing is a matter of blessings. We pay it because it indeed tries our faith, but the Lord promises blessings. See Malachi 3:8-10 as a support for our belief in its benefits. This is also something I can attest to personally.
When my wife and I were first married, we did not have much money. We lived in a crappy apartment in a dangerous part of Tucson while I was attending the U of A, and unexpectedly early on, my wife got pregnant. We felt unprepared for this, and could not afford anything larger than our two bedroom apartment. It was hard to have the faith to pay our tithing, but we did so anyway. Shortly after, a job opportunity managing apartments opened up. The owner preferred to hire Mormons, though he was not one himself. We received free rent in a two bedroom apartment and free utilities, plus $800 a month on top, which was a huge step up for us. It also had well-priced benefits. We felt extremely blessed, and shortly after about three weeks working there and five months into our pregnancy, our OB/GYN performed the ultrasound to determine the baby's sex, and was surprised when she had to determine the babies' (yes, plural) sex. She had somehow not noticed for 5 months that my wife was carrying twins. We could never have supported both children in our dinky apartment, and with only me working, since my wife would have to stay home. I was able to continue to go to school and work while my wife stayed home working and watching the kids. You may call this blessing coincidental or karma, but we see it as a blessing for obedience to the law of tithing. We sacrificed for the Lord, and he was happy to give more in return.
Speaking of the twins, I've got to put them to bed right now, but later I will try to address the use of tithing, as we have lay clergy.
I won't have time to explain the uses of tithing myself, but know that the money is used in very particular ways and does not line the pockets of our leaders, though the highest leaders who do not have full-time jobs receive some modest support. It's apparent that none is exactly wealthy and that the money is not used for personal gain. Hopefully this link will help:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=e141f73c28d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
(see the last two links under "Additional Online Materials" for the most straightforward information)
Okay, I suspect this thread is on its way out, which is good because I am probably going to have to pledge to limit myself once again very soon, and because this thread had been very time consuming for a while there. However, I had one more thing I really wanted to share before this thread enters semi-retirement (it will of course still be a place where anyone can post questions, but I will not actively seek any responses and I believe most people's curiosity has been settled for the time being).
I am a big fan of books, especially religious books. The following pictures are of my religious books. We recently bought another shelf and they're getting reorganized, so they're not necessarily in the order I like, and this isn't even all of them (I could get about two more shelves loaded for you). This is a sample to show you how much I study this. Now I'd be lying to say I've read all this, but I've certainly looked through them and read many and at least used those not read as reference material.
I'm a little disappointed at the fact that I don't seem to have made available my Mormon Doctrine collection by Bruce R. McConkie. While the name sounds authoritative, McConkie was chasatized for his first edition's tone and inaccuracies. He made several changes to reduce the offensive nature of his work when releasing his second edition, but he also did not change many things specifically criticized by Church leaders in his first edition. He later released a slightly revised second edition, which is the version most know today. The first edition is usually pretty valuable and goes for around $300 on eBay at times, though I've seen rarer printings go for more and damaged versions go for much less. I happen to have one of the damaged versions, which I obtained for $150. I have the second edition and the revised second edition as well. That's a collection I'm proud of.
I have nearly a complete set of the Messages of the First Presidency as well, shown in the third photo. The complete set usually goes for $450-$600 on eBay. I have volumes 1-5 (missing 6), plus two duplicates (2 and 5). The best part is that while individual books can be priced as high as $75, especially the rarer volumes 4-6, I have gotten all my books including duplicates for no more than $40 total. That's why I love thrift shopping :)
The fourth photo shows my Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. (great nephew of prophet Joseph Smith and 10th prophet, and in his earlier years served as the Church Historian and Recorder. He wrote quite a few books on doctrine from a very faith-based perspective. Next to him I have my B.H. Roberts collection. He served as a Seventy and wrote the History of the Church and the Comprehensive History of the Church (first is a collection of documents edited together, second is more of an analytical synopsis), as well as several other books. He wrote from a much more scientific and critical angle, and really provided an intellectual and analytical perspective of the Church and its doctrines. These are two of my favorite Church authors, and they were contemporaries who did butt heads at times.
Finally, I have a collection of several different translations of the Bible, including Catholic, Protestant, Jehovah's Witness, scholarly, and Jewish translations (shown in second photo). I also have a copy of the "Inspired Version," a very offensive edition to most non-Mormons as it contains what we call the Joseph Smith translation. Smith altered many passages in the King James Bible in order to provide what we believe may be a more accurate rendering of some things. I use cautious wording here, as this is not simply a matter of actual translation. His work could be called more of a commentary, explanatory, expansive, clarifying, and at times correcting work. To give a minor example, the Bible says in Matthew that Jesus' robe was scarlet while John describes it as purple. Smith altered the scarlet to purple for consistency, presumably by us because this is the correct color, and significant in that purple is the color of royalty. Our official Bible is the KJV for several reasons, but the Joseph Smith Translation serves as a resource at times. This could be useful for those offended or interested in order to learn more on the topic.
As I said, this is not all. I also have a collection of works for other religions, such as two copies of the Qu'ran, Baha'i sacred texts, and other works. Especially interesting to me are the groups that claim adherence to a truer form of the faith revealed to Joseph Smith, such as the before mentioned Community of Christ, some things related to the ever-popular fundamentalist sects that practice polygamy and make the news more often than we do, and most interesting to me, the Strangite sect. The Strangites believe that James J. Strang should have succeeding Joseph Smith instead of Brigham Young, and make a very interesting case. There are even schismatics among this branch, and all membership in the whole world of all branches total less than 1,000 members, but they've never vanished despite ongoing pressure. They are a very interesting group.
All in all, I feel very qualified in my religious knowledge for an amateur on the topic. I really would have loved to major in religious studies. In any case, I wanted to show off about 70% of my collection for fun. Thanks for peeking, and thanks for all who have been interested in this thread. I hope that ultimately I have settled some of the confusion, although it appears the tea thing will forever be a stumper. I also hope that I have reduced a number of misconceptions, reduced any prejudice, and have not completely alienated any of you towards my faith. It really is a beautiful faith despite its human shortcomings. Remember, in any human institution, even divinely inspired ones, man's fingerprints will always reduce its perfection. Nevertheless, I truly believe that this is God's Church.
Mormonism and Christianity will be considered mythology in a couple thousand years. Same as for Ancient cultures gods are now deemed mythology.
At that point I suppose we will all embrace the Muad'dib and join the Zensunni, right? In reality, that is a fantastic personal opinion you hold. Tell it like it is. You're computers and personal beliefs are better than everyone else's :)
FremenDar said:
Mormonism and Christianity will be considered mythology in a couple thousand years. Same as for Ancient cultures gods are now deemed mythology.
I hate to admit it, but this is most likely true.
Darth_ender, would you please explain the idea of baptism by proxy and and the idea of doing so to someone already dead? and why someone decided to do this to Anne Frank?
Warbler said:
Darth_ender, would please explain the idea of baptism by proxy and and the idea of doing so to someone already dead? and why someone decided to do this to Anne Frank?
...nine times.
DominicCobb said:
Warbler said:
Darth_ender, would please explain the idea of baptism by proxy and and the idea of doing so to someone already dead? and why someone decided to do this to Anne Frank?
...nine times.
Bueller? ... Bueller?
Darth_ender, what's the secret password to get into heaven?
<span style=“font-weight: bold;”>The Most Handsomest Guy on OT.com</span>
greenpenguino said:
Darth_ender, what's the secret password to get into heaven?
Actually, The Boost just said it. It was encoded in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. See you there!
DominicCobb said:
Warbler said:
Darth_ender, would please explain the idea of baptism by proxy and and the idea of doing so to someone already dead? and why someone decided to do this to Anne Frank?
...nine times.
Hold your horses everyone, I do have a life besides this forum, though I spend too much time here. I think it was already brought up a few pages back...
...Ah, yes, here it is:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Ask-the-member-of-the-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-AKA-Interrogate-the-Mormon/post/547084/#TopicPost547084
Boy, those were the days! But to add to the discussion, we believe that we are doing a favor for our ancestors when we are baptized for them. If they choose not to accept it, they are not obliged to do so at all. Work for the dead is frequently performed more than once due to different people submitting their researched genealogical names, often with alternate spellings, discrepant birth dates, etc. Here is the Church's official word on the matter:
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/violations-of-proxy-baptism-policy
Wikipedia is also somewhat enlightening, in its usual level of Wikipedia imperfection:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead
If you read, you will also see that Adolf Hitler had a baptism performed on his behalf. Are we trying to get Hitler into heaven? Of course not. In fact it is Church policy to not perform work for known murderers. But it is an imperfect system, and it's possible other inappropriate baptisms will take place. Just know that no offense is ever intended, and all efforts have been made to rectify the situation for the offended.
sorry, I hadn't realized it had already been brought up.
No worries. I'm always happy to answer questions, and we did get a little...off topic during the course of that discussion. Please read those posts and links, and if you have more questions, I'd be glad to help :)
This might have been discussed before, but how do you feel about South Park's lampooning of Mormonism and their broadway play, The Book of Mormon?
“Grow up. These are my Disney's movies, not yours.”
I've also got a question - one that may also have already been answered here. What is the LDS' position on the theory of evolution?
georgec said:
This might have been discussed before, but how do you feel about South Park's lampooning of Mormonism and their broadway play, The Book of Mormon?
I never watch South Park, so I wouldn't know.