Ask the member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints AKA Interrogate the Mormon — Page 7

Yes, but the ceremony they get in the afterlife is unnecessary for anyone but the living.  The dead can have a ceremony given to them by the dead, or by Jesus, or whomever.

In fact, you could argue that a baptism is entirely unnecessary for the living as well.  If God can indeed look into my heart and know my innermost thoughts, would he not know that I had accepted Christ as my savior?  Why is there this need to declare it in public?

Of course, being non-religious myself, I think the way I live my life and treat others is much more important.  If there is a God, and this God is truly above mortal emotions like pride and jealousy, he/she would not even care if I didn't believe in him/her.  He/she would only care about how I lived my life.

Which leads to my central issue with most religions: that I am somehow a bad person (or at least severely misguided) because I don't believe as they do.

My point (which got lost in my rambling, perhaps) is that in my view, baptizing the dead is done for the benefit of the living, not the dead.

Now that I understand what you mean, I actually am inclined to agree with you.  Much of what we do is for our benefit, not because God actually needs us to take a ritualistic bath.  I see where you're coming from.  It's analogous to what Jesus said: "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."  Just feel 

As for being misguided or evil, I think you are justified in your position of being agnostic, and you are certainly not a bad person.  Faith can be either the easy road or the hard road, depending on one's willingness to understand and accept science.  For me it has become the hard road, but I love to have faith in what I cannot explain scientifically.  In this thread I only briefly touch on topics that I've really spent a great deal of time and energy into researching and pondering.  But I respect atheists and agnostics who respect us believers.

darth_ender said:

As for being misguided or evil, I think you are justified in your position of being agnostic, and you are certainly not a bad person.

You don't know me that well ;-)

I do appreciate your level-headedness.

I know you are half-joking, but you don't know enough about me to make that judgement.

But how do you know I'm not a Poor Female Black Mormon Canadian Jewish Swimsuit Model Atheist?

I served my mission in Atlanta.  The number of baptisms per missionary was pretty low (I believe 6 baptisms in a two year mission on average).  I had 9 baptisms, so that was pretty good.  4 of those were black.  I still keep in contact with one of them.  I don't know if there are prominent poor black people (in general, poor people don't end up being too prominent).  However, I've known many others as well.

Yes I do know what you mean.  And no need to beat around the bush.  I started this thread knowing that difficult subjects like that would come up.  Ask further, and I will try to respond with candor.  But indeed, there are a number of black Mormons, and there have been at least some since the 1830s.

walkingdork said:

 

darth_ender said:

To do such work for Holocaust victims was purely well-intentioned.  Since they do not believe it a valid ordinance, no one thought it would be offensive, but it is of great significance to us.  Even the Founding Fathers of the United States have had this same work done for them.  But out of respect for the offended Jews, and as pointed out in your more balanced article, the names have since been removed from the list, which essentially undoes the work for the dead.

This statement could not be more arrogant and is exactly why nonreligious people can't stand some religious people. So people have to except Christ to go to heaven, but if you don't it will just be forced on your name when you die.

May your corpse be raped and dismembered, sir!

 

That could have been handled better.

Also, you misspelled "accept."

walkingdork said:

Of course, being non-religious myself, I think the way I live my life and treat others is much more important.  If there is a God, and this God is truly above mortal emotions like pride and jealousy, he/she would not even care if I didn't believe in him/her.  He/she would only care about how I lived my life.

God's not above mortal emotions. God is described throughout the Bible as being a jealous God (an trait that even some humans have managed to overcome).

A God I would choose to believe in would not have any emotions.

walkingdork said:

TV's Frink said:

walkingdork said:

 

darth_ender said:

To do such work for Holocaust victims was purely well-intentioned.  Since they do not believe it a valid ordinance, no one thought it would be offensive, but it is of great significance to us.  Even the Founding Fathers of the United States have had this same work done for them.  But out of respect for the offended Jews, and as pointed out in your more balanced article, the names have since been removed from the list, which essentially undoes the work for the dead.

This statement could not be more arrogant and is exactly why nonreligious people can't stand some religious people. So people have to except Christ to go to heaven, but if you don't it will just be forced on your name when you die.

May your corpse be raped and dismembered, sir!

 

That could have been handled better.

What for? There is clearly no respect for the wishes of the dead.

While I don't agree with it (see my previous posts), I do have some understanding how some Mormons would truly be trying to help.  And I believe darth_ender is one of them.  Just as not all religious people are good, not all religious people are bad.  And judging from his posts (granted, a small sample size of his life, but still), I believe that ender is one of those religious people who I would get along with just fine in real life.  Even though we disagree on a great many things (not just religion, mind you), we both show respect for each other's positions.  Just because I disagree doesn't mean I can't sympathize or at least try to understand.

You, on the other hand, are being deliberately insulting, and directly so to someone who has done no such thing to you as far as I can recall.  I'm obviously much more aligned with your positions on religion than on ender's but at least he's not being a jerk.

walkingdork said:

 

darth_ender said:

To do such work for Holocaust victims was purely well-intentioned.  Since they do not believe it a valid ordinance, no one thought it would be offensive, but it is of great significance to us.  Even the Founding Fathers of the United States have had this same work done for them.  But out of respect for the offended Jews, and as pointed out in your more balanced article, the names have since been removed from the list, which essentially undoes the work for the dead.

This statement could not be more arrogant and is exactly why nonreligious people can't stand some religious people. So people have to except Christ to go to heaven, but if you don't it will just be forced on your name when you die.

May your corpse be raped and dismembered, sir!

 

 Um...we're not touching any corpses.  Baptism for the dead involves nothing but the name of the person we are being baptized on behalf of.  Nothing beyond that.  Their bodies remain in their graves.  If Catholic relatives began praying for me, believing I'm in purgatory, because they wanted me to get to heaven, I'd have no problem with that.  I see nothing disrespectful about that.  Beyond that, and assuming Mormonism is 100% correct (which the Jews do not, obviously) nothing is forced on anyone, which I have said before.  They can choose if they wish to accept it or reject it.  It's merely an opportunity.

It's a good thing you never, ever come off as arrogant.  It's only those obnoxious, over-the-top atheists that cause religious folks to be apprehensive towards the rest.

You, sir, are a disrespectful, self-righteous, high-horsed jerk.  I can hardly imagine why a 29 or 30 year-old like you might be divorced and why there was some sort of alienation between OT.com and myspleen.  Feel free to take this argument to a different thread, possibly here, or even more appropriately here.  Or at least before you reveal yourself as an idiot, use that superior intellect and intelligently read and comprehend my posts. 

TV's Frink said:

walkingdork said:

TV's Frink said:

walkingdork said:

 

darth_ender said:

To do such work for Holocaust victims was purely well-intentioned.  Since they do not believe it a valid ordinance, no one thought it would be offensive, but it is of great significance to us.  Even the Founding Fathers of the United States have had this same work done for them.  But out of respect for the offended Jews, and as pointed out in your more balanced article, the names have since been removed from the list, which essentially undoes the work for the dead.

This statement could not be more arrogant and is exactly why nonreligious people can't stand some religious people. So people have to except Christ to go to heaven, but if you don't it will just be forced on your name when you die.

May your corpse be raped and dismembered, sir!

 

That could have been handled better.

What for? There is clearly no respect for the wishes of the dead.

While I don't agree with it (see my previous posts), I do have some understanding how some Mormons would truly be trying to help.  And I believe darth_ender is one of them.  Just as not all religious people are good, not all religious people are bad.  And judging from his posts (granted, a small sample size of his life, but still), I believe that ender is one of those religious people who I would get along with just fine in real life.  Even though we disagree on a great many things (not just religion, mind you), we both show respect for each other's positions.  Just because I disagree doesn't mean I can't sympathize or at least try to understand.

You, on the other hand, are being deliberately insulting, and directly so to someone who has done no such thing to you as far as I can recall.  I'm obviously much more aligned with your positions on religion than on ender's but at least he's not being a jerk.

 Sorry, I may have just negated your last statement.  Thanks for standing up for me.  I really tire of walkingdork, and the only reason I haven't ignored him is so he doesn't freely trash this thread without my responding.

darth_ender said:

I can hardly imagine why a 29 or 30 year-old like you might be divorced

That was probably unnecessary as well.

BACK TO REAL PROBLEMS, LIKE THE WHOLE TEA THING!!!!! STILL CONFUSED!!!!! ;-)

Of course it was.  But at the present I'm not in the mood to take it back.  I'm sure I'll say sorry when I'm less irritated, but this guy has constantly been incredibly rude to me, wherever we try to have even a decent discussion.  I've ignored most of his obnoxious comments, but I'm ready to start my own pledge, even if I'm the only one to sign it.  Of course, if that's the case, I guess I'd be defeating the purpose of not ignoring him and giving him free reign here, but whatever.

As for tea, just drink some raspberry tea and be happy.  Get over it!  ;)

My wife is taking my two girls to her mother's house tonight for the monthly "give Frink a chance to watch loud explosion movies" sleepover.  I think I'll celebrate by getting smashed on black tea :P

Wow, you really go out with a bang!  Way to spend mankind's final hours, you sinful Camellia sinensis addict.

Disclaimer: Mormons do NOT believe the world is ending today.