Ask the member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints AKA Interrogate the Mormon — Page 14

darth_ender said:

[forgive the formatting, as I'm using a proxy server that won't let me format correctly]

I assume this site is on the church's firewall. ;-)

Ha ha.  I got busted making a sock several months ago and moth3r blocked my work IP.  I have to use a proxy when at work to access the site, but it limits what I can do.

Placeholder, since my feverish typing has been interrupted for the time being.

*reserved*

Hey, you didn't call in advance.  And I do require a deposit.  Seriously though, I just don't have time to answer everything I want to answer.  I was reserving the space for my joke in the other thread, but at this point the joke is dead, so I'll just make a new post when I get to it.

CP3S said:

Ooh, this could be a fun discussion.  If we do proceed down this road, I will definitely move my responses to the Mormon thread.  But for now, I will offer you this outdated article:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Wordprint_studies

Wordprint is an extremely questionable method. It is far from conclusive, and really determines nothing. 

Well clearly, or else everyone who ever studied it would know the Book of Mormon is true.  But your offhand dismissal is not evidence to the contrary, but rather a lack of research.  It's not like it'd hold up in court, but it's more compelling than you realize.  It's been used to verify more than just Book of Mormon authorship.

Usually, translated works by different authors but the same translator are shown to be of the same author by the wordprint method, but not always. The inconsistency there goes along way in telling us that, ultimately, this study on the Mormon books really tells us nothing.

No, and no.  Look at the article again, as it shows that many of the wordprint characteristics are retained after translation.  Furthermore, it is extremely difficult to alter one's style, even more so to alter it numerous times in the same work without repeating one's style.

This article is also an interesting read.

We even have the "Book of Abraham" (that's the one, right?) written in Egyptian hieroglyphs, that has no correlation whatsoever to what Smith claims to have translated from that same piece of papyri. This is the point where you start talking about the necessity of faith, which would be an obvious requirement.

Yes, this would be worth discussion as well.  Perhaps I will address in the Mormon thread.

We actually discussed it a bit last time.

I still feel that the Book of Abraham and the revelation that it is nothing of the sort, should have been the end of Mormonism.

I could certainly go to greater lengths to explain my personal views on this topic, but they correlate with at least some of the ideas in this article, so I will provide this for your extensive reading pleasure, and you may probe further if you wish, and I will then give you more specific answers:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham

To his credit as well, he spent relatively little time working on the Book of Mormon, approximately two months of actual reading with transcribers.

That is hardly unreasonable. With people to do the transcription work, this would be very doable.

For a purely fictitious book without any subsequent editing (aside from a largely minor corrections after the first printing, mostly in terms of spelling and punctuation), that's pretty darn fast.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=767

It seems like you brought up another point recently regarding Mormonism specifically that I have not addressed, but I can't seem to find it.  I'm calling it a night.

Well, I am officially the third highest official in the local Mormon Diocese.

Okay, so that's a lame joke.  But I am now serving in a position of authority over the local congregation as the 2nd counselor in the bishopric.  Positions are entrusted to a person, not sought, and leaders are not paid in my church, so there is no ambition in seeking these positions.  This is a position I am honored and terrified to take part in.  I'm younger than the usual folks, and it can be rather time consuming.  I am not terribly organized by nature either.  But I pray I am up to the challenge and may serve God to the best of my ability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_(Latter_Day_Saints)

Congratulations, Ender! That does sound like quite an honor.

Thanks, CP3S.  It means a lot to hear that, especially from a heathen such as yourself ;)

Just realized I made an error in my previous post and said leaders are paid.  We are not paid, but I forgot that very important word.

Orson Scott Card said : many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse.

Orson Scott Card has a very odd way at looking at the universe, it probably helps write convincing fiction.

The world is a big place with lots of people in it so the above statement may well be true but it could also be adapted to almost anything.

"Many Mormons first entered that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse."

Equally true and equally odd.

Indeed the few gay people I know who were abused sexually were abused by heterosexuals and are women.

So is he a typical church member in his particular stance on homosexuality or just a particular church member in his stance on homosexuality?

Bingowings said:

Orson Scott Card said : many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse.

Orson Scott Card has a very odd way at looking at the universe, it probably helps write convincing fiction.

The world is a big place with lots of people in it so the above statement may well be true but it could also be adapted to almost anything.

"Many Mormons first entered that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse."

Equally true and equally odd.

Indeed the few gay people I know who were abused sexually were abused by heterosexuals and are women.

So is he a typical church member in his particular stance on homosexuality or just a particular church member in his stance on homosexuality?

Well, first off, I couldn't really say what a typical Mormon believes because I've never performed a survey.  I've heard various things from various people, so my little sample would suggest no, or at least that it's not limited to such.  I know of no such teaching either.

timdiggerm said:

darth_ender said:

Well, I am officially the third highest official in the local Mormon Diocese.

Okay, so that's a lame joke.  But I am now serving in a position of authority over the local congregation as the 2nd counselor in the bishopric.  Positions are entrusted to a person, not sought, and leaders are not paid in my church, so there is no ambition in seeking these positions.  This is a position I am honored and terrified to take part in.  I'm younger than the usual folks, and it can be rather time consuming.  I am not terribly organized by nature either.  But I pray I am up to the challenge and may serve God to the best of my ability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_(Latter_Day_Saints)

This is a serious question, and I am not making fun of your faith, despite the fact that it might sound like I am.

 

How many secret handshakes do you know, as a Bishop?

First, I am not actually a bishop: I am second counselor to a bishop.  No biggie, but just to clarify.  Second, it's a difficult topic for me to discuss because I feel that what you are referring to is sacred and not to be spoken of lightly.  Even referring to it as handshakes, though I know that is how it is commonly viewed, seems like a simplistic way to express it.  They're not something we do outside the temple, and they are not even part of entrance to the temple, nor are they a means of conveying, "Hey, I'm a Mormon too."  Though the comparisons to masonry are common and understandable, their function is different.  Brigham Young put it this way:

“Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the holy Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of earth and hell.”

What others call secret handshakes we call tokens.  That said, I received my endowment which included all such "key words," "signs," and "tokens" back in 2001 prior to going on a mission.  There are no new tokens to learn.  I learned 'em all already 12 years ago.

Hope that's a useful answer.

I'm glad Mr Scott Card's odd views aren't directly related to his Mormonism.

It's so sad when someone who you have enjoyed the work of turns out to be one of those people.

I used to really dig Dali when I was a teen and then I found out about him and Franco and it's hard to isolate the two things (nice technical handling of oils, clever optical effects, funny persona... oh and he is best mates with a Fascist Dictator).

I just saw Card tonight on Done The Impossible.  Apparently he's a big Firefly fan.  Too bad his views on homosexuality are so wrong.

Apparently you can keep Jehovah's Witnesses away by putting a "Give Blood" sticker in the window of the front door.

Would a "Brew Up" sign have the same talismanic effect on the Mormons?

We don't get Mormons up here any way

darth_ender said:

Well, I am officially the third highest official in the local Mormon Diocese.

Okay, so that's a lame joke.  But I am now serving in a position of authority over the local congregation as the 2nd counselor in the bishopric.  Positions are entrusted to a person, not sought, and leaders are not paid in my church, so there is no ambition in seeking these positions.  This is a position I am honored and terrified to take part in.  I'm younger than the usual folks, and it can be rather time consuming.  I am not terribly organized by nature either.  But I pray I am up to the challenge and may serve God to the best of my ability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_(Latter_Day_Saints)

Wow congrads, Ender.   I had not read this until today or I would have said congrads earlier.   How is the position working out for you?

@Warbler, thanks buddy.  It's working out well.  It's time consuming, and it, along with my new job, make it so I have much less time for family and hobbies.  But still, I enjoy it, and it's a different, yet nice perspective of the members of my congregation.

@Anctufaalb, I suggest simply putting a sign on your door saying that you don't want any religious visitors, but do so respectfully.  Some may still come, but most will probably be respectful.

Or you could join....either way.... ;)

Or just don't answer your door.  Who wants to talk to anyone anyway?

I say get the chainsaw and hockey mask ready.

It's donut day, actually.