Ask the member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints AKA Interrogate the Mormon — Page 12

Hey, if nothing else, I'm really sorry.  I honestly think I have been a bit emo this weekend, and while you didn't put candy sprinkles on your posts, I'm sure I took things in ways they weren't meant.  I promise I'll try to take things a little better in the future.  I think certain characters require a readjustment of my intention detectors.  I do apologize, but please bear in mind (perhaps rereading it you will see), I had intended humor in many cases.  Happy to put this behind us now.

Bingowings said:

The Community Of Christ seemed to be moving away from traditional attitudes towards the the role of women in their church and acceptance of whales.

They also began to try to rebuild bridges with the other LDS churches.

Do you have any idea what happened to reverse some of those changes?

Sorry, nearly forgot to answer this question.  The Community of Christ is the second largest branch of the LDS movement, currently with around 250,000 members (as opposed to 14 million in the primary group to which I belong).  It once had about 350,000, but lost great deal of it's membership around the turn of the millennium.  They have been drifting more an more liberal in their teachings for some years now.  In the 80s they allowed women to have the priesthood and began constructing their first real temple they could call their own, a building of unique design quite different in function from an LDS temple.  The location for this building was not quite in the correct spot either (too lazy to find a link, look up temple lot in Wikipedia, and if necessary, Church of Christ Temple Lot), which resulted in membership loss.  They have further changed their name (formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints), do not accept the Book of Mormon as true historically speaking, altered their definition for the passing of church leadership (used to be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith, but no longer), and accept a more traditional understanding of the Trinity.

There was a great deal of animosity between both churches in the early years, and Joseph Smith's son, Joseph Smith, III actually pressed heavily for the legislation currently in place that illegalized plural marriage and contributed to the discontinuation of this policy in my church.

They are essentially a Protestant church in most regards, though an outgrowth of the LDS movement.  They are now focused on community building (hence the new name).

This is all from memory, and I was not aware of any reversal.  I can take a look, but I will tell you that a sizeable portion (much of that missing 100,000) still claim loyalty to the Reorganized Church as opposed to the Community of Christ and its liberalization.  Perhaps you refer to those so-called "Restoration Branches."  Or perhaps the pressure from the conservatives in the whole Reorganized line has actually started a different trend in their main organization.  I'll look into it.

darth_ender said:

I can't help but worry that somehow what I feel was a very sensible post will still somehow be misinterpreted and you will not even address the bulk of the post due to some phrase you find "childish" or inaccurate.

It is an unfounded worry. I haven't intentionally avoided addressing anything. I haven't said anything more about the eleven because you explained that my lines of questioning were not what this thread was for, and I conceded you were right. I am not out to offend you, and don't want to do so.

After reading your post last night and doing a lot of reading and googling of my own, I found Martin & Lucy Harris and the lost 116 pages particularly interesting (I have of course heard of the incident before, but it has been a while since I have actually looked at it in detail, rather than just coming across references to it and summaries of it in other works. In fact, last time I read about it in detail was before I even had access to the internet with the endless links and wealth of information and varying viewpoints it provides).

I was also kind of surprised to find via your links that the gold plates (if I am understanding what I am reading correctly), were not actually physically seen by the witnesses in person (including Martin, who was transcribing for Smith as he translated them), but rather through visions. Did I misunderstand that? Smith was the only one who actually physically saw and handled them? I don't even know how to begin to respond to that.

CP3S said:

After reading your post last night and doing a lot of reading and googling of my own, I found Martin & Lucy Harris and the lost 116 pages particularly interesting (I have of course heard of the incident before, but it has been a while since I have actually looked at it in detail, rather than just coming across references to it and summaries of it in other works. In fact, last time I read about it in detail was before I even had access to the internet with the endless links and wealth of information and varying viewpoints it provides).

It is an interesting story, one which I devoted a portion of my Sunday School lesson yesterday on.  I actually have to give you a great deal of credit, because I talked a great deal about the several witnesses and Martin Harris's actions regarding those pages, and my recent research proved beneficial ;)

I was also kind of surprised to find via your links that the gold plates (if I am understanding what I am reading correctly), were not actually physically seen by the witnesses in person (including Martin, who was transcribing for Smith as he translated them), but rather through visions. Did I misunderstand that? Smith was the only one who actually physically saw and handled them? I don't even know how to begin to respond to that.

My understanding of this is specifically regarding Martin Harris, who stated on more than one occasion that he saw the plates with "spiritual eyes," or some similar phrasing.  This has been interpreted by many to possibly be nothing more than an admission to nothing more than an imaginary or entirely subjective experience.  I believe these link will help (sorry to rely on links again, and sorry if any I already posted--I can't remember which I put up before):

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/%22Eye_of_Faith%22_and_%22Spiritual_Eye%22_statements_by_Martin_Harris

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/Spiritual_or_literal

The way the two groups experienced the plates was different: the Three Witnesses saw an angel who showed them the plates and the experience was clearly quite spiritual in nature.  The Eight Witnesses had a more down-to-earth experience where Joseph simply produced the plates and they were permitted to handle them.  The only indication that any of them had a "spiritual experience' as opposed to anything else was a single six year late report by a second-hand source relaying John Whitmer's story.  This does not appear consistent with any other reports of John's words.  See this link:

http://en.fairmormon.org/%22shown_to_me_by_a_supernatural_power%22

I think it also valuable to note that there are two other unofficial witnesses (I think I did provide the link, and so likely you have already read it).  One, the mother of the Whitmer brothers reported having seen an angel and the plates in vision.  The other, Emma Smith, wife to Joseph Smith, reports that while she never saw the plates, she handled them when covered by a cloth.  Even if one does not view the plates as a historical book of an ancient American people, it still seems difficult to discount them as completely non-existent.  Emma gave this report long after her husband had died and she had remarried.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/Other_Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Hope this clarifies.  Only a spiritual experience can be ascribed to the Three and Mary Whitmer.  Oh, and Martin actually did not see them while he served as scribe.  It was only after he had lost that privilege (due to the 116 pages incident) that he was permitted to see the plates.

Group quits the Church en masse.  This article annoys me.  Frankly, 150 people from 3 states is unsurprising.  I'm sure there are far more than that that disagree.  But this is a somewhat notable event, and so it's not surprising that it would get an article devoted to it.  But this quote is a sign of ignorance.

The Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is known for its culture of obedience, and the mass ceremony was a seldom-seen act of collective revolt.

While obedience is always encouraged, it is never required.  Any church holds expectations, and most any religious organization will encourage obedience to some set of laws or commandments.  Describing it as a "culture" is likely an implication of particularly strict standards (which can be argued successfully) and punishment for getting out of line (much harder to argue).  I'm sure some are ostracized, but there is certainly no official punishment for anything less than severe sexual sin, and any ostracism is strongly discouraged.

Every 6 months, in April and October, the Church holds a General Conference which is broadcast all over the world.  Anyone interested in watching a portion can check out the official site:

http://www.lds.org/?lang=eng

the times are at 10:00 and 2:00 MST (under that silly daylight savings thingamajig, which we in AZ refuse to participate in).

Just FYI.

darth_ender said:

the times are at 10:00 and 2:00 MST (under that silly daylight savings thingamajig, which we in AZ refuse to participate in).

Northern enough to be grateful for the thingamajig.

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/gilbert/

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/phoenix/

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/mesa/

These are the three in that area.  I don't see any eyesores, though :)  They look beautiful to me.  A new AZ temple was announced today: Tucson.

I saw some guys with some tape measures in your backyard, they looked pretty Mormony to me.

Tyrphanax said:

Ah, it's that Gilbert one they're building. I find the architecture to be way too backwards and too art-deco (in a bad way) personally. So they just seem ugly to me.

I am in Utah right now, no fooling.  Buying alcohol here is a sometimes baffling process.

I used to live in Tucson and attended the UA.  I wonder where they're putting the temple.  I'll let them know you're yard is available :)

The architecture is clearly so we can commune with the paranormal.  When we say, "The Church of Jesus Christ," we clearly mean Gozer ;)

I don't know about buying alcohol or about doing so in Utah, so...good luck! ;)

And Hal, what is your pain?  Share it with me!

Hal 9000 said:

What does God need with a starship?

Please enlighten.

It's probably a Kolob thing.

Nah, it's a Kang and Kodos thang.

God is doin a new thang.